1391 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Not unlike real life often times sleazy organizations will do good things for the wrong reasons if it helps promote their ideology; what if their views are inherently harmful like I would argue the Chantry's are? What if they are generally opressive or--in the least--more prone to opressive or regressive ideas that promote bigotry and discrimination? Giving food to the poor and doing good things that good people do regardless of religious affiliation is not an argument for the Chantry's merrit.

 

So we should promote an ideology that isn't "oppressive and regressive" while killing the poor or at the very least refusing to give them any aid?

 

"Doing good things isn't good if I don't like you" is the argument here. So if that is the case, doesn't the opposite of that hold true? That "doing bad things is good because I like you".

[Kieran G.]

Morality is your own thing so it can't be said if chantry is good or not they do a lot questionable things in name of control and still they suck at it so well rather poor example of "end justifies the means".

 

If you want reason why it sucks well it is hypocritical and ineffective and when it comes to "moral side" as i said they did and do a lot questionable things.

It's not the Chantry. its certain individuals inside the Chantry, its not like when these priest are being trained they are taught to start terrorist cells to attack elves and qunari. in fact many Divines have helped Thedas.

 

Actually here is a question. is the modern Inquisition in the game to blame for the genocide the first Inquisition did? Is every Mage Circle in every country at fault because some circle mages killed innocents for blood magic? no?  then why should the Entire chantry be blamed for what splinter groups do?

 

Also before anyone brings up the argument but the Chantry enslaves the mages and kills them or makes them tranquil. it was the Chantry who saved every mage life while the inquisition was going on, and it was the mages who agreed that they wanted to be taught and safe guarded in Circle towers, and the Chantry only has over sight over the Templar, they do not have direct control, so you cannot blame Divine Justinia for the acts of Meredith or lambert. 

[Lulupab]

Take away Chantry's influence on ruling a country and you may keep your precious chantry.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I don't respond to blatant strawman arguments. Don't insult my intelligence.

Okay, fair enough. Well don't bring your IRL problems into a fictional game world then. It's obvious you have a beef with IRL organizations and are transplanting those feelings onto the chantry.

 

You're free to do that in your game, cause thats your game with your character. But you don't seem to have anything in game to use and relied only on "well in the real world" as if that has bearing to a game where a ox man can bang a dwarf and people cry foul if it isn't two males doing it and everyone claps.

[Roamingmachine]

The yardstick of the inherent "good" or "evil" of a deed i use is not the deed itself but the motivations behind it. If a "good" deed is done for any other reason than because it is "good"  (e.g. spreading a faith/propaganda/political ideology, spindoctoring et.al.) then any moral brownie points are lost. So yes, the chantry does help people but for its own selfish reasons. No, the people recieving the help don't care as they both need and want the help. So in short, the chantry doesn't do good work but it does useful and necessary work.

[Kieran G.]

The yardstick of the inherent "good" or "evil" of a deed i use is not the deed itself but the motivations behind it. If a "good" deed is done for any other reason than because it is "good"  (e.g. spreading a faith/propaganda/political ideology, spindoctoring et.al.) then any moral brownie points are lost. So yes, the chantry does help people but for its own selfish reasons. No, the people recieving the help don't care as they both need and want the help. So in short, the chantry doesn't do good work but it does useful and necessary work.

I read this and see Necessary and i think that is really true, yes "bad" and "good" deeds have been made in the name of the maker, but the Chantry is necessary for Thedas, for the orphans, the hungry, for people looking for peace. no other nation or organization has done or at this time can do what the Chantry can. Even if your feelings are good or bad about the Chantry you can't deny that without the Chantry, there would be a vacuum that no one could fill.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The yardstick of the inherent "good" or "evil" of a deed i use is not the deed itself but the motivations behind it. If a "good" deed is done for any other reason than because it is "good"  (e.g. spreading a faith/propaganda/political ideology, spindoctoring et.al.) then any moral brownie points are lost. So yes, the chantry does help people but for its own selfish reasons. No, the people recieving the help don't care as they both need and want the help. So in short, the chantry doesn't do good work but it does useful and necessary work.

There are three adages that somewhat dismantle this line of thought though.

1. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
2. Never looked a gift horse in the mouth.
3. Actions speak louder then words.

[Elfquisitor]

Shem? Watch yourself Elf, before you shem yourself.

 

Spoiler

 

I agree with the OP. The Chantry might contain some snobby stuck up priests but they do good work.

 

Still, my loyalty lies with the templars. If Inquisition allows it, I will give them control of the Chantry and their priests will no longer be able to boss them around and dictate what they do.

I agree if I have that kind of a choice, I will put the templars in charge.

[Roamingmachine]

In their minds, spreading the faith is a "good" deed too. i.e. They're saving souls, not just hunger/poverty/etc..

 

It could be misguided, but not exactly selfish either.

 

edit: The Qunari are much the same. They think their forced conversions are a good deed for their victims.. that they'll be instilled with purpose. "I will MAKE you see!" -Arishok

Piggybacking a motivation on the deed, even if you think it is good, voids the morality of it. If you think spreading the faith is a good deed, then it is so but only if you do it without attatching it to other deeds or having any thought of reward (example: paradise spot)."Good" has to be done simply and openly because it is good. I realize this sets the bar pretty much impossibly high but thats kinda  the point of it and this is only a personal thing for me, not a universal truth ™

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's not the Chantry. its certain individuals inside the Chantry, its not like when these priest are being trained they are taught to start terrorist cells to attack elves and qunari. in fact many Divines have helped Thedas.

 

Actually here is a question. is the modern Inquisition in the game to blame for the genocide the first Inquisition did? Is every Mage Circle in every country at fault because some circle mages killed innocents for blood magic? no?  then why should the Entire chantry be blamed for what splinter groups do?

 

Also before anyone brings up the argument but the Chantry enslaves the mages and kills them or makes them tranquil. it was the Chantry who saved every mage life while the inquisition was going on, and it was the mages who agreed that they wanted to be taught and safe guarded in Circle towers, and the Chantry only has over sight over the Templar, they do not have direct control, so you cannot blame Divine Justinia for the acts of Meredith or lambert. 

What splinter group entire chantry in general accepts philosophy "end justifies the means" (hell entire circle system if founded on that) outside perhaps some naive individuals that think that their organisation is saint same thing is with grey wardens.

Now we are talking about organisation in general and it's philosophy not just petrice.

 

Nope templars and seekers are part of the chantry divine is it head (of course he have little power) divine supervises over entire system or at least should current divine managed collapse system and start mage-templar war so yes it is her fault not to mention that chantry failed a lot more than once in matter of controling mages and protecting world from them what means they shouldn't have power over mages only someone who will get job done by brutal but effective solutions.

[Elfquisitor]

I fully support the chantry and I feel like the templars should really start running it. I mean look at Thedas appostates and blood mages running around loose. How many more examples do people need. I mean what happend to Hawke's mother was major abusement of magic. There is a reason why the circle is needed. Imagine how much genocide will the mages do if they are unleashed in the world. I think that the circle must even evovle to the next level. Everyday there must be training to resist the urges, and the templars should be the one to train the mage, so they can be in complete control, and avoid the demon thing. Otherwise tranquility is not so bad. People stiil keep their lives,yes they are stripped of emotions, but atleast they are no longer a danger towards many many more. What is the life of a one, compared  to the lives of many.

One thing I like about the Qun, they know how to treat the mages, yes it's bit extreme to leash them and to do that thing to there mouth, but I'm talking about their viewpoint on magic. It's definatly a weapon that must be treated with caution, not on the extreme side , but the circle is quite a good solution.

Also one more thing I like about the Qun is that they want to unite everyone under one single society and culture,religion. I perosnally think that is also a good solution ,there will be no poor people.As Sten has said everyone has a place in the Qun. Everyone is born with a purpose, and lives with it to the end.

[Kieran G.]

What splinter group entire chantry in general accepts philosophy "end justifies the means" (hell entire circle system if founded on that) outside perhaps some naive individuals that think that their organisation is saint same thing is with grey wardens.

Now we are talking about organisation in general and it's philosophy not just petrice.

 

Nope templars and seekers are part of the chantry divine is it head (of course he have little power) divine supervises over entire system or at least should current divine managed collapse system and start mage-templar war so yes it is her fault not to mention that chantry failed a lot more than once in matter of controling mages and protecting world from them what means they shouldn't have power over mages only someone who will get job done by brutal but effective solutions.

Tell me one Speech where Andraste said that the end justifies the means? the Chantry's only goal is to spread the religion and the only time exalted marches have been called for is when attacks have been made against the chantry. examples, the dalish sacking of Val Royeaux, the Teviniters breaking the Nevaran Accord, and the Qunari forcibly coverting followers of andraste. give me an example of when the Chantry made a move where the ends justifies the means?

 

and yes splinter groups just like in the mage circles. Most of the times the writers pay more attention to the different groups inside the Mage Circles, but with the Chantry we have only seen the extremest sects. That doesn't mean the entire Chantry feels that way.

 

Yes the Templars and Seekers are part of the Chantry but they aren't the Chantry they were only created after the Nevaran Accord to bring an end to the inquisition so the Inquisition would stop bringing war to the countryside and innocent lives would be spared. and the only reason High Seeker Lambert had the authority to nullify the Accord was because Divine Justinia broke it when taking commands of Templars and keeping them from there duties. 

 

Edit: And actually the circle was founded to try to PROTECT the mages from the common person, the inquisition and to protect them from themselves. The mage's actually agreed to these terms when the Circles, Templars, and Seekers were founded.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Tell me one Speech where Andraste said that the end justifies the means? the Chantry's only goal is to spread the religion and the only time exalted marches have been called for is when attacks have been made against the chantry. examples, the dalish sacking of Val Royeaux, the Teviniters breaking the Nevaran Accord, and the Qunari forcibly coverting followers of andraste. give me an example of when the Chantry made a move where the ends justifies the means?

 

and yes splinter groups just like in the mage circles. Most of the times the writers pay more attention to the different groups inside the Mage Circles, but with the Chantry we have only seen the extremest sects. That doesn't mean the entire Chantry feels that way.

 

Yes the Templars and Seekers are part of the Chantry but they aren't the Chantry they were only created after the Nevaran Accord to bring an end to the inquisition so the Inquisition would stop bringing war to the countryside and innocent lives would be spared. and the only reason High Seeker Lambert had the authority to nullify the Accord was because Divine Justinia broke it when taking commands of Templars and keeping them from there duties. 

 

Edit: And actually the circle was founded to try to PROTECT the mages from the common person, the inquisition and to protect them from themselves. The mage's actually agreed to these terms when the Circles, Templars, and Seekers were founded.

How i can tell you andraste speeach when we don't have any besides andraste isn't chantry... I said already circles were bulit on that... Besides what they did during thrid exalted marche not to mention what chantry did after that?

omg what i have said you im not talking petrice like and still they are product of the chantry about unless you want hide everything not nice that chantry did behind extremist sects what you try to do...

 

How they can be part of the chantry and don't be chantry? They are they under control of grand clerics and divine so don't tell me they aren't... He broke it because she wanted destroy current system and betrayed him so he wanted put new divine but spearate from old.

 

So what? and no protecting mages is only to make it look pretty like "we don't have blood magic in tevinter".

[Kieran G.]

How i can tell you andraste speeach when we don't have any besides andraste isn't chantry... I said already circles were bulit on that... Besides what they did during thrid exalted marche not to mention what chantry did after that?

omg what i have said you im not talking petrice like and still they are product of the chantry about unless you want hide everything not nice that chantry did behind extremist sects what you try to do...

 

How they can be part of the chantry and don't be chantry? They are they under control of grand clerics and divine so don't tell me they aren't... He broke it because she wanted destroy current system and betrayed him so he wanted put new divine but spearate from old.

 

So what? and no protecting mages is only to make it look pretty like "we don't have blood magic in tevinter".

You are giving no examples, just saying "this is the truth." i only spoke once of Patrice, the rest i am speaking of extremest groups, but you are saying the entire Chantry believes the ends justifies the means, when that is completely untrue. you haven't given a shred of evidence to support your claim that the entire Chantry as a whole is corrupt all the way to the top.

 

Ok here is a real world example. The CIA and FBI are both part of the US but they are not the same, they have no jurisdiction over each other, and neither does the president he has the power to tell them what to do, but he cannot control them, that is the same way the Chantry is set up, the separation of powers, thats also why High Seeker Lambert was allowed to nullify the accord. And actually a grand cleric doesn't have control over a templars. a templar only has to follow orders if he feels like it or is directly told to by his Templar superiors. 

 

The mages wanted to be in the circle. because it was safe for them. and the Chantry wanted to stop the violence. or is trying to making an agreement so innocent mages/civilians stop being killed wrong? When the Circle, The Chantry, The Templars, The Seekers all agreed, it was not to make them all one organization, it was to create peace. they are all separate Entities that just work with each other. and that's why each was able to leave the accord. the templars didn't rebel against the Chantry, they legally discontinued their relationship. 

 

Edit: and the only thing the Chantry was built on was bringing peace and the maker back to the world. that and only that. the Chantry is not to blame for the actions of the templars.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You are giving no examples, just saying "this is the truth." i only spoke once of Patrice, the rest i am speaking of extremest groups, but you are saying the entire Chantry believes the ends justifies the means, when that is completely untrue. you haven't given a shred of evidence to support your claim that the entire Chantry as a whole is corrupt all the way to the top.

 

Ok here is a real world example. The CIA and FBI are both part of the US but they are not the same, they have no jurisdiction over each other, and neither does the president he has the power to tell them what to do, but he cannot control them, that is the same way the Chantry is set up, the separation of powers, thats also why High Seeker Lambert was allowed to nullify the accord. And actually a grand cleric doesn't have control over a templars. a templar only has to follow orders if he feels like it or is directly told to by his Templar superiors. 

 

The mages wanted to be in the circle. because it was safe for them. and the Chantry wanted to stop the violence. or is trying to making an agreement so innocent mages/civilians stop being killed wrong? When the Circle, The Chantry, The Templars, The Seekers all agreed, it was not to make them all one organization, it was to create peace. they are all separate Entities that just work with each other. and that's why each was able to leave the accord. the templars didn't rebel against the Chantry, they legally discontinued their relationship. 

 

Edit: and the only thing the Chantry was built on was bringing peace and the maker back to the world. that and only that. the Chantry is not to blame for the actions of the templars.

Ehhh it isn't even worth discussion i gave you examples and you ignored them claming that i gave no examples... so i do what sane person do in such situation and say golden "im done"

[Darkly Tranquil]

Also before anyone brings up the argument but the Chantry enslaves the mages and kills them or makes them tranquil. it was the Chantry who saved every mage life while the inquisition was going on, and it was the mages who agreed that they wanted to be taught and safe guarded in Circle towers, and the Chantry only has over sight over the Templar, they do not have direct control, so you cannot blame Divine Justinia for the acts of Meredith or lambert. 

 

But you can bet that when the mages agreed to the formation of the Circles, they didn't think they would be locked up for their entire lives and left completely at the mercy of an organisation that has (over time) come to hate their very existence. The system of the Circle with the Templars watching over the mages might have worked at some point, but over the course of the last thousand years, the relationship has become toxic, with the mages having few rights and no freedoms, and the Templars having total power and no accountability.

It seemed that Grand Cleric Elthina had a fair bit of authority of Knight Commander Meredith. I recall at least one occasion when Elthina told her to go back to the gallows "like a good girl" and all Meredith could do is fume. Orsino also appealed to Elthina repeatedly to intervene in Meredith's activities, so clearly he believed she had the power to command Meredith. Elthina clearly had the authority to pull Meredith into line, but failed to do so because reasons (a plot device, mainly).

 

It seems that up until the dissolution of the Nevarran Accord, the senior Mothers of the Chantry did have the authority to overrule the Templars, and based on what we know of the interactions between Divine Justinia V and Lambert, even the High Seeker (ref: http://dragonage.wik...Nevarran_Accord). Indeed, Lambert dissolved the Nevarran Accord because it bound them to obey the Chantry and he had to break it in order to defy the commands of the Divine.

[Giant ambush beetle]

If something causes bad things to happen, it's also able to cause good things to happen.

 

Like AIDS?

 

Son, your logic is deeply flawed. 

[Ennai and 54 others]

Like AIDS?

 

Son, your logic is deeply flawed. 

bad example.

 

AIDS Is a bad thing caused by unprotected sex.unprotected sex causes both good(procreation) and bad things(AIDS) to happen.

[Kieran G.]

But you can bet that when the mages agreed to the formation of the Circles, they didn't think they would be locked up for their entire lives and left completely at the mercy of an organisation that has (over time) come to hate their very existence. The system of the Circle with the Templars watching over the mages might have worked at some point, but over the course of the last thousand years, the relationship has become toxic, with the mages having few rights and no freedoms, and the Templars having total power and no accountability.

It seemed that Grand Cleric Elthina had a fair bit of authority of Knight Commander Meredith. I recall at least one occasion when Elthina told her to go back to the gallows "like a good girl" and all Meredith could do is fume. Orsino also appealed to Elthina repeatedly to intervene in Meredith's activities, so clearly he believed she had the power to command Meredith. Elthina clearly had the authority to pull Meredith into line, but failed to do so because reasons (a plot device, mainly).

 

It seems that up until the dissolution of the Nevarran Accord, the senior Mothers of the Chantry did have the authority to overrule the Templars, and based on what we know of the interactions between Divine Justinia V and Lambert, even the High Seeker (ref: http://dragonage.wik...Nevarran_Accord). Indeed, Lambert dissolved the Nevarran Accord because it bound them to obey the Chantry and he had to break it in order to defy the commands of the Divine.

I want to get it straight i am not defending the actions against the mages, but i do not think the Chantry should be destroyed or removed because of them. and yes of course the Templar abused their responsibility, they were meant to protect mages from the outside world that couldn't understand them and the world of the fade that might use them, but instead they became wardens instead of protectors. Just like i used in the other discussion The president has the power to command the FBI to do something but they aren't under his direct control, unlike a king who has an army, the templars, the seekers, and the Chantry were somewhat separated, everytime the Templars killed a mage or made one tranquil they didn't have to get the OK from a cleric. 

 

I believe with my full heart that the Nevarran accord was of good use. it made time very peaceful. and things even improved for the mages, they were given home that wouldn't be burned down. somewhere kids could go to feel safe and learn to control their power. and before Lambert left, Divine Justinia was attempting to find a solution to create that peace again.

 

the whole point of the creation of the Seekers were to handle the delicate cases and to make sure Templars were doing their duty, so the Chantry could stick to religious work. and of course Revered Mothers have a time of authority, i mean why else would it take a Revered Mother to sign off on the right of annulment or the fact that they are invite to political councils such as landsmeet and the such. It doesn't mean she has legal power over them, but they will listen to her authority because its they have god on their side.

 

If you want real world context look at how the pope could command kings even though truly the kings didn't have to listen to him.

[Giant ambush beetle]

bad example.
 
AIDS Is a bad thing caused by unprotected sex.unprotected sex causes both good(procreation) and bad things(AIDS) to happen.

No, it was a good example as there are things in this world that only cause harm. The world is not as gray as most people want to believe.
I guess the Konzentrationslager in WW2 were hundred of thousands of Jews were sent to be tortured and killed weren't purely bad either, they must have caused something good. And racism plus homophobia must have redeeming qualities too!

Tell me, something good ISIS does.

The world is black, white and gray.


By the way, procreation is currently ruining our overcrowded planet, it leads to famines, pollution and faster spread of epidemics.

[Kieran G.]

No, it was a good example as there are things in this world that only cause harm. The world is not as gray as most people want to believe.

Tell me, something good ISIS does.

Bam!