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[Panda]

I think it's depends on place how good work chantry really does. In Ferelden you saw Chantry's mostly as safehouses and places for refugees to go get help. Chantry-sisters there had modest outfits and seemed helpful.

 

The chantry in Kirkwall was so different. Chantry was huge and rich but empty of people. Chantry-sisters were all beatiful women with faces full of make-up, expensive looking robes on and spend their times mostly gossipping. I didn't see chantry-sisters helping anyone in the Kirkwall.

 

I think some chantrys are better than some in terms of helping people and actually doing good work ^^;

[MisterJB]

There was some debate about phylacteries and if they were blood magic above. Well, they are in some way, but that's rather less relevant (apart from being evidence for some hypocrisy on the templars' part)

It's no more hipocrisy than gun control in a state where the police is allowed to carry.

 

Yeah, the Chantry does good work... keeping their feet firmly planted on the necks of the mageborn.

Many would argue that that IS good work. Mages are dangerous.

 

I hope we'll get the opportunity to raid a phylactery store. These things need to be destroyed.

Phylacteries are some of the least intrusive and restrictive methods of control and peacekeeping there are.

 

 

[MisterJB]

You are correct Circle mages are not slaves.

 

They are life-long prisoners who have commited no crime.  Which is aguably much worse than slavery.

 

Slaves can, depending on their masters and how valuable their skills are, live quite well.

 

Even in the DA setting - one of the best examples people bring up on how well-off circle mages have it is Wynne.  Really? The woman who is presented as one of the most trusted mages in Thedas -  still had her child taken away.  Wynne has a very long leash, but she still can't earn the equivalent of a pardon.

 

Even Tevinter has the Liberati.  Slaves can earn their freedom. Slaves can have families and raise their own children as proven by Fenris.

 

A slave can work their way out of slavery or at least hope for a decent master, a mage will always be a prisoner whether on a short leash or a long one.

 

I'd prefer slavery.

Living in an isolated society is somehow worse than slavery?

Do you really want to compare the living conditions of mages in, say, Orlais where they are housed in Emperor Drakon's former palace and given an education above that of the majority of commoners as well as freedoms and rigths with the living conditions of slaves in 2014?

Really? Being in the Circle is, somehow, worse than forced labor, child and women smuggling, etc?

[Willowhugger]

Living in an isolated society is somehow worse than slavery?

Do you really want to compare the living conditions of mages in, say, Orlais where they are housed in Emperor Drakon's former palace and given an education above that of the majority of commoners as well as freedoms and rigths with the living conditions of slaves in 2014?

Really? Being in the Circle is, somehow, worse than forced labor, child and women smuggling, etc?

 

Actually, I'd argue it's every bit as terrible as slavery because they're forbidden from having children or raising their children if they do. That is one of the single most dehumanizing things I can think of. Slaves are allowed to have and raise their children.

 

Mages aren't.

 

Taking away your kids and forbidding you to have children (plus sex in general at the Kirkwall Circle) is pretty horrible. It's a pretty basic right.

[MisterJB]

Actually, I'd argue it's every bit as terrible as slavery because they're forbidden from having children or raising their children if they do. That is one of the single most dehumanizing things I can think of. Slaves are allowed to have and raise their children.

 

Mages aren't.

We also take away children from parents whose conditions, either mental, physical or monetary are simply not adequate. Is that worse than slavery?

Do you really think keeping children is really what's concerning those girls kidnapped in Nigeria, for instance?

 

[Willowhugger]

We also take away children from parents whose conditions, either mental, physical or monetary are simply not adequate. Is that worse than slavery?

Do you really think keeping children is really what's concerning those girls kidnapped in Nigeria, for instance?

We also have, historically, taken away children from groups that we've judged "unfit" because we didn't like their culture or beliefs or race and that was a really awful-awful crime which the people who performed deserve condemnation for.

To avoid RL comparisons, I think what the Chantry does to mages is no different from taking children away from elves and raising them to believe in Andraste.

I think the Templars aren't mustache twirling villains but I can't get behind such an inherently evil act.

[MisterJB]

We also have, historically, taken away children from groups that we've judged "unfit" because we didn't like their culture or beliefs or race and that was a really awful-awful crime which the people who performed deserve condemnation for.

To avoid RL comparisons, I think what the Chantry does to mages is no different from taking children away from elves and raising them to believe in Andraste.

I think the Templars aren't mustache twirling villains but I can't get behind such an inherently evil act.

No one is saying it isn't a questionable practice; only that claming the Circles are worse than slavery is silly.

 

Anyway, it seems to me the Circles aren't equipped to have toddlers around (people routinely set each other on fire there, after all) plus it places a strain on the emotions of mages which must be kept under control. Also, there's always the unfortunate possibility the kid will be a non-mage in which case they will have spent their childhood years isolated from their society for no reason and not have learned any trade with which to provide for themselves.

[Willowhugger]

No one is saying it isn't a questionable practice; only that claming the Circles are worse than slavery is silly.

 

Anyway, it seems to me the Circles aren't equipped to have toddlers around (people routinely set each other on fire there, after all) plus it places a strain on the emotions of mages which must be kept under control. Also, there's always the unfortunate possibility the kid will be a non-mage in which case they will have spent their childhood years isolated from their society for no reason and not have learned any trade with which to provide for themselves.

 

That's the matters crux, though, that the entire Circle system is designed to keep magic isolated like a disease. It's dangerous, but as we saw with the Qunari attacks, it's also incredibly useful. The Mages may be responsible for the Blight (if we believe Corphyeus, the Black City was already corrupted) but they're also the reason they're stopped too.

 

Anders also showed that the Circles keep Healers away from the public too.

I think the Circles are ambiguous but in some ways, the system of Circles are designed to keep a person from having a family or growing as a population or doing anything but what the Chantry wants them to do with magic.

 

It's not chattle slavery but it's a form of slavery (like serfdom) except they're also being deliberately controlled in hopes they don't get any bigger as a group.

[Merc Mama]

I've had a love/hate relationship with the Chantry ever since I played DA:O, but even with my mostly negative view on it, I did view it as beneficial to the people who were commited to making the world a better place and finding inner peace, not spreading the faith like a few zealots. I honestly don't believe the Chantry or Templars should be as powerful as they are, I was honestly disgusted with the power they wielded in Kirkwall and even though Elthina was a good Cleric, everything around her seemed toxic and saturated in greed and racism disgusted as religious duty. 

In DA:O I liked the humble faith and rarely got into verbal debates with the faithful because they sometimes had enough sense to not try to crush other cultures/faiths with their own, I left Sebastian as a man of the Maker because like Wynne, he was a good example of the good that the Chantry could do but Petrice & many others were a nasty example of how the Chantry doesn't control it's own and accidentally breeds zealots and madmen that do things like the Exalted Marches and Tranquil Solution. 

It does need to be change, but it doesn't need to be destroyed so I do hope to save it in the next game if possible. 

[Willowhugger]

I've had a love/hate relationship with the Chantry ever since I played DA:O, but even with my mostly negative view on it, I did view it as beneficial to the people who were commited to making the world a better place and finding inner peace, not spreading the faith like a few zealots. I honestly don't believe the Chantry or Templars should be as powerful as they are, I was honestly disgusted with the power they wielded in Kirkwall and even though Elthina was a good Cleric, everything around her seemed toxic and saturated in greed and racism disgusted as religious duty. 

In DA:O I liked the humble faith and rarely got into verbal debates with the faithful because they sometimes had enough sense to not try to crush other cultures/faiths with their own, I left Sebastian as a man of the Maker because like Wynne, he was a good example of the good that the Chantry could do but Petrice & many others were a nasty example of how the Chantry doesn't control it's own and accidentally breeds zealots and madmen that do things like the Exalted Marches and Tranquil Solution. 

It does need to be change, but it doesn't need to be destroyed so I do hope to save it in the next game if possible. 

 

To be frank, I think the nobility gets off scott free as people blame the church for what's really a fault of the culture. The Chantry is responsible for a lot of the problems elves face and all of the ones mages face plus the Exalted Marches but, bluntly, Thedas is a place filled with corruption on an institutional level. The class divisions are enforced at the point of a sword, everyone is ready to kill everyone else, and racism is everywhere. The Chantry in Kirkwall was awful but, honestly, so was EVERYONE in Kirkwall.

Whereas the Chantry in Fereldan was relatively nice.

[MisterJB]

That's the matters crux, though, that the entire Circle system is designed to keep magic isolated like a disease. It's dangerous, but as we saw with the Qunari attacks, it's also incredibly useful. The Mages may be responsible for the Blight (if we believe Corphyeus, the Black City was already corrupted) but they're also the reason they're stopped too.

 

Anders also showed that the Circles keep Healers away from the public too.

I think the Circles are ambiguous but in some ways, the system of Circles are designed to keep a person from having a family or growing as a population or doing anything but what the Chantry wants them to do with magic.

 

It's not chattle slavery but it's a form of slavery (like serfdom) except they're also being deliberately controlled in hopes they don't get any bigger as a group.

A measure of control is necessary for any society to exist. Otherwise, one has anarchy.

The nature of magic means mages are a threat to the safety of normals and their control over their own societies. To restrict the use of magic to times of need and to prevent the rise of another Tevinter are unresonable goals.

Of course, as the recipients of this tighter control, the mages will see the Chantry and the people in an antagonistic light.

[Willowhugger]

A measure of control is necessary for any society to exist. Otherwise, one has anarchy.

The nature of magic means mages are a threat to the safety of normals and their control over their own societies. To restrict the use of magic to times of need and to prevent the rise of another Tevinter are unresonable goals.

Of course, as the recipients of this tighter control, the mages will see the Chantry and the people in an antagonistic light.

 

The thing is, Thedas is a military dictatorship ruled by hereditary thugs with armor and swords. What makes mages worse than the nobility as is?

Tevinter is awful but, frankly, no worse than Orlais.

What's the measures to prevent another Orlais?

[AshenEndymion]

Tevinter is awful but, frankly, no worse than Orlais.

 

I have to disagree with this sentiment.

 

In Orlais, the random peasant who is angry at the Emperor has as much of a chance of murdering said Emperor as anyone else.... Assuming s/he plans accordingly.

 

In Tevinter, the random peasant who is angry at an Archon has zero chance of murdering said Arhcon...  Regardless of how much s/he plans.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

To be frank, I think the nobility gets off scott free as people blame the church for what's really a fault of the culture. The Chantry is responsible for a lot of the problems elves face and all of the ones mages face plus the Exalted Marches but, bluntly, Thedas is a place filled with corruption on an institutional level. The class divisions are enforced at the point of a sword, everyone is ready to kill everyone else, and racism is everywhere. The Chantry in Kirkwall was awful but, honestly, so was EVERYONE in Kirkwall.
Whereas the Chantry in Fereldan was relatively nice.

Id blame the elves, specifically Dalish elves, for their own current predicament. The biggest reason their in the state their in now is cos the Dales became ridiculously isolationist, kept out of the blight & then invaded a weakened Orlais, a war that they lost leading to them losing control of their homeland.

[Willowhugger]

Id blame the elves, specifically Dalish elves, for their own current predicament. The biggest reason their in the state their in now is cos the Dales became ridiculously isolationist, kept out of the blight & then invaded a weakened Orlais, a war that they lost leading to them losing control of their homeland.

To be fair, staying out of the Blight is [censored] but not something justifies enslaving a nation and attempting to eradicate its culture.

[Willowhugger]

I have to disagree with this sentiment.

 

In Orlais, the random peasant who is angry at the Emperor has as much of a chance of murdering said Emperor as anyone else.... Assuming s/he plans accordingly.

 

In Tevinter, the random peasant who is angry at an Archon has zero chance of murdering said Arhcon...  Regardless of how much s/he plans.

In Kirkwall, any of your friends can stab the apostate at the Rose. So, I'd disagree.

[MisterJB]

The thing is, Thedas is a military dictatorship ruled by hereditary thugs with armor and swords. What makes mages worse than the nobility as is?

Easy. For instance, in Rivain, where Seers (mages) are often the leaders of communities, Abominations are seen as an act of nature no different than an hurricane. The implications of this are obvious, it  exempts mages from taking responsability for their actions by claiming that it is not their fault if they fall to demons, it's just nature. This, of course, means that the freedom of mages takes a precedence over the security of normal people.

In Orlais, for instance, this does not ocurr. Mages are taught that it's their emotions that lead to the creation of Abominations and measures are taken to ensure the safety of citizens from magical threats.

In a nation ruled by mages, mage freedom take precedence over non-mage security; in one ruled by normal people, their security takes precedence over the freedom of mages.

Therefore, representation within the system is important.

 

That is not to say non-magical societies are perfect (they aren't) but there is a very good reason for normals to fear giving freedoms to mages.

 

 

Tevinter is awful but, frankly, no worse than Orlais.

Remember the elven shopkeeper in Denerim. He'll tell you that the Alienage is much better than Tevinter. Fenris too will call Kirkwall a "free place".

When was the last time an Orlesian killed a five year old to entertain the guests?

[AshenEndymion]

In Kirkwall, any of your friends can stab the apostate at the Rose. So, I'd disagree.

 

But Hawke & Co is in that room under the guise of having group sex with Rose...

 

No peasant that lacks magic is getting into the same room as an Archon.  Not unless they were a sacrifice.  In which case, they wouldn't have the weapons needed to dispatch the Archon anyway.

[Merc Mama]

To be frank, I think the nobility gets off scott free as people blame the church for what's really a fault of the culture. The Chantry is responsible for a lot of the problems elves face and all of the ones mages face plus the Exalted Marches but, bluntly, Thedas is a place filled with corruption on an institutional level. The class divisions are enforced at the point of a sword, everyone is ready to kill everyone else, and racism is everywhere. The Chantry in Kirkwall was awful but, honestly, so was EVERYONE in Kirkwall.

Whereas the Chantry in Fereldan was relatively nice.

Chantry keeping healers from the public? 

 

O-o 

So the Chantry is keeping mages' gifts behind a pay wall?? xD

 

And yea, I hated Kirkwall, I prefered the Dalish and Qunari more so than the people of the city. It was a hate cemented in the moment I walked into Darktown and had a woman tell me to die and make room for someone else. :c

[Merc Mama]

Id blame the elves, specifically Dalish elves, for their own current predicament. The biggest reason their in the state their in now is cos the Dales became ridiculously isolationist, kept out of the blight & then invaded a weakened Orlais, a war that they lost leading to them losing control of their homeland.

It is because the elves view on keeping away from humans that allows them to be vilified by other species, opening up lines of communication would serve them better than hiding in the forest, killing people who stray too close to their camp. Even in Merrill's clan, after Hawke is invited and allowed to wander the camp by their own Keeper and yet some elves were telling us to leave quickly or threatening to kill us if we stepped out of line. 

I understand the elves want to preserve and recover lost lore, protect their own from being hunted and keep their numbers up, but come on. Isolationism didn't work for Japan and it won't work for them. 

[Medhia_Nox]

I believe Bioware is stating very clearly that mages "must" have some form of control.

 

Mages who control mages - in Tevinter - are harsher (by all examples suggested so far) to their fellows than non-mages. 

Mundanes who control mages - foolishly couple reasonable restrictions with fear mongering and superstition.

And mages who have no control - have a civilization where abominations are considered a natural disaster (which is, to me, insane and not a place worth living in). 

 

Bioware is never, ever, going to give Thedas a magetopia.  Their magic isn't designed like D&D - where you learn spells, gain power, done.  It comes with heavy prices and great risk.  That will never change by adding more hugs and more recess time.  

 

In fact - since mages run on emotion - families are the absolute WORST thing for them to have (except in draconian environments like Tevinter).  Nobody is more irrational and selfish than someone who values their family over others.

[TTTX]

Id blame the elves, specifically Dalish elves, for their own current predicament. The biggest reason their in the state their in now is cos the Dales became ridiculously isolationist, kept out of the blight & then invaded a weakened Orlais, a war that they lost leading to them losing control of their homeland.

I hardly doubt that Orlais didn't have a hand in starting the war against the Dales, after all Orlais have quiet the history of back stabbing and invading other countries, not to mention both the Chantry and Orlais both gained something after they won, Orlais got more land which they probably needed because of the blight most likely damaged much of their farmlands and the Chantry gained more influence with the rest of Thedas.

 

The Dales isn't innocent, but let's face it Orlais is hardly a saint either even Ferelden has had it share of evil leaders in it's history.

[Dean_the_Young]

I believe Bioware is stating very clearly that mages "must" have some form of control.

 

Mages who control mages - in Tevinter - are harsher (by all examples suggested so far) to their fellows than non-mages. 

Mundanes who control mages - foolishly couple reasonable restrictions with fear mongering and superstition.

And mages who have no control - have a civilization where abominations are considered a natural disaster (which is, to me, insane and not a place worth living in). 

 

Bioware is never, ever, going to give Thedas a magetopia.  Their magic isn't designed like D&D - where you learn spells, gain power, done.  It comes with heavy prices and great risk.  That will never change by adding more hugs and more recess time.  

 

In fact - since mages run on emotion - families are the absolute WORST thing for them to have (except in draconian environments like Tevinter).  Nobody is more irrational and selfish than someone who values their family over others.

 

This may surprise people, but I disagree.

 

Or rather, I agree with the reasoning, but I disagree with the prescription. Magic in Thedas is influenced by emotional state: emotions, willpower, passion, and so on. And people who are emotional are less stable in terms of self-control, which is desperately needed for mages in particular.

 

But I believe families are a stabilizing, not destabilizing, factor in mental and emotional health. Many stresses, including lacks of other sorts of freedoms, can be born more healthily (and happily) with an emotional support network, and 'family' is one of the best ones available.

 

I certainly agree about the point of irrationality over family, but I don't believe it outweighs the benefit: in fact, I often believe that the tempering factor for extremism over family can be more family. When people lose loved ones, they can rely on children or other family for both purpose and support- and close family are also the most effective observers for getting help for people who need it. Family issues are also 'good' in the sense that they are predictable and obvious triggers: or rather, the fact that someone had family pass away is an obvious flag of concern to pay extra attention of, rather than a less obvious and more unpredictable trigger. For volatility problems, predictability helps manage risk by making it less unexpected even if the timing is still random.

 

Love, like hormones, is going to happen no matter what you do to the mages, and banning healthy and acceptable emotional outlets will only see such passions and emotions escape in unacceptable manners. The troubles of love can often best be fixed by more love. Emotional suppression is emotionally unhealthy, and is itself prone to more extreme emotional outbreaks. (For all the things it got wrong, I do think the Star Wars movies got that right as a flaw about the Jedi.)

 

In terms of emotional health and stability, I believe that allowing families amongst the mages would be basic reform. It would be a high value, low cost policy change that would do much for the mages. Mind you, I do think mandatory emotional and marriage counseling should also be a part of this deal, which is admittedly an anachronistic notion for the setting, but I think most people would agree with it as a reasonable and effective alternative to already ineffective opposition to emotional attachments.

 

 

Now, there are a whole host of other reasons why allowing and even encouraging families could be beneficial to the Templar position of maintaining the Circle system, but many of those are so disturbing that I'll stop here while people are still surprised and nodding in agreement and willing to believe that there is some form of compassion in my cold, shriveled heart.

[Mistic]

Now, there are a whole host of other reasons why allowing and even encouraging families could be beneficial to the Templar position of maintaining the Circle system, but many of those are so disturbing that I'll stop here while people are still surprised and nodding in agreement and willing to believe that there is some form of compassion in my cold, shriveled heart.

 

Sweet, sweet hostages. Sorry, did I say that aloud? Well, from a less disturbing point of view, family is also a good demotivator from escaping. When you are alone and by yourself, escaping is a dream somewhat easy to achieve. But when you have to think about your parents, your siblings and your children, well, maybe you think about it twice.

 

And why do some people think that families are a destabilizing factor, or at least a more destabilizing factor than other human relationships, like friends, co-workers, bosses, subordinates, etc.? Familiarity brings predictability, and that's nice when the main objective is to prevent bad things from happening.

 

One of the DA comics told the story of a mage's child who was taken out from the Circle by her mother, with many, many problems. Problems that could have disappeared if the mage was allowed to keep her child.