1391 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

Of course it does

But for some people just the fact that religion exists is a crime already so nothing will change these bigots' minds

[MisterJB]

But you can bet that when the mages agreed to the formation of the Circles, they didn't think they would be locked up for their entire lives

 

The accord was very clear. They were to be separated from the rest of society. If they now wish to back out when it ceased to serve their purposes, then they are untrustworthy and future agreements with the mages will be unreliable for they have shown their willingness to retract them.

 

But you can bet that when the mages agreed to the formation of the Circles, they didn't think they would be locked up for their entire lives and left completely at the mercy of an organisation that has (over time) come to hate their very existence. The system of the Circle with the Templars watching over the mages might have worked at some point, but over the course of the last thousand years, the relationship has become toxic, with the mages having few rights and no freedoms, and the Templars having total power and no accountability.

This is an exageration. Within the DA media, we have seen mages having varying degrees of freedom. Someone like Anders, who attempted to escape seven times, may spend an year in solitary while someone like Finn, who is an exemplary mage, is allowed to travel in order to complete a personal project. His youthfulness also indicates he didn't need to spend his entire life earning the trust of the Templars before being allowed certain freedoms.

This will vary from Circle to Circle but we have examples of freedoms from every one we have observed and there are rights that every Templars must respect.

The balance of power may not be equal but when it is ever? Put two people in the same room and they'll automatically compete for leadership.

 

Also, mages can make people melt with their minds. They are, hardly, ever at anyone's mercy.

 

It seemed that Grand Cleric Elthina had a fair bit of authority of Knight Commander Meredith. I recall at least one occasion when Elthina told her to go back to the gallows "like a good girl" and all Meredith could do is fume. Orsino also appealed to Elthina repeatedly to intervene in Meredith's activities, so clearly he believed she had the power to command Meredith. Elthina clearly had the authority to pull Meredith into line, but failed to do so because reasons (a plot device, mainly).

Because both Elthina's and Meredith's power and authority relied upon people listening to them. If Elthina gave an order and Meredith gave the exact opposite, who would the Templars follow?

If it was split in half, then Kirkwall's greatest fighting force would start a civil war. Then the mages would join in and everything would go to hell.

[Gervaise]

The fact is that if the Chantry truly follow the Chant of Light then they ought to be doing good work, it is part of the teachings of their prophet.   At a local level this does ensure a level of benevolence that would otherwise probably not exist.   It provides a source of stability and help for ordinary people who have pretty tough lives and would be even worse without it.   So for the ordinary reverend mothers in the villages the good they do does outweigh the bad aspects of the religion.

 

However, at the top level the Chantry does have a lot to answer for.   They do not stand up to the rulers and nobility and call them to account for their actions if they deem it expedient not to do so.    As an example, look at Orlais and the Chevaliers - their training where they lose recruits on the alienages to kill any elves they find is in direct contradiction of the Chant of Light and you can't tell me that the Chantry aren't aware of it; the rule that Chevaliers are entitled to take any girl they wish and their relatives cannot defend them without committing a capital offence, regardless of whether they do serious harm to the Chevalier or not; the law in Ferelden that makes it an offence to harm a human in defence of an elf; all these are things that the Chantry should have condemned as against the faith and yet have not.     The Chantry as an organisation is too closely tied to the welfare of those in power rather than the whole population as they should be.   The reason the chantry sister in the city elf origin takes no action is probably because she knows the law favours Vaughan - that is probably why even Duncan makes no objection.   The city guard only gets involved elves start killing humans.

 

The very fact that they removed all references to  Shartan from the Chant of Light and tried to humanise the only image of him that hadn't been destroyed says to me that they were well aware that what they did in effectively enslaving the elves and taking them from the Dales was wrong.     The Dales was given to the elves by divine mandate of their prophet and no mere mortal had the right to take them away - the leaders of the elves (the Dalish nobles) had fled, their other generals had died fighting or killed themselves rather than be taken captive.   It seems to me that those who remained where either too young, too old or too injured to fight and they could have perfectly well simply placed rulers over them whilst they converted them to the faith and then sworn them to abide by the peace.     Instead of that they rounded them up and placed them in alienages - slaves in all but name.   That was rank hypocrisy.

 

In Masked Empire Justinia all but refused to do anything about the mage/Templar situation unless Celene does something about the elves in Halamshiral.  Yet the mages and Templars were her responsibility regardless of what Celene does.   She could have condemned the noble for what he did and the law for not treating elves fairly, instead she all but insisted that Celene put down the elf rebellion that was brought on by the injustice in Halamshiral.   I also think she was wrong in Asunder in conducting magical research in secret without any form of oversight in place.   If she didn't want to involve the Templars, because she knew they would object, she should at least have ensured other mages were present.   That is why Circles are normally placed away from large centres of population and have Templars guards.     Even if mages were allowed to live freely in society, I would certainly still want dangerous research to be conducted in specific places with oversight to ensure that if it got out of hand, innocent citizens did not suffer. 

 

My characters are Andrastrians and try to follow the Chant of Light but that does not mean they approve of the Chantry because I feel they do not stand up for the faith sufficiently and apply its tenants across the board without distinction with regard to race, class or whatever.  

 

Incidentally, I have always wondered why the Maker never made any objection to rape or does it fall under the general heading of doing harm to those weaker than yourself?   Is this why, whenever this sort of crime occurs, it strikes me that people are never as outraged as I would expect them to be.    For example,  Aveline only takes sufficient interest in the crime of her guard in raping an elf girl after he has been killed - if she had immediately ordered an enquiry after she "heard a rumour" and suspended him from duty whilst it was conducted, then the elf brothers might never have taken the law into their own hands.

[Mistic]

The accord was very clear. They were to be separated from the rest of society. If they now wish to back out when it ceased to serve their purposes, then they are untrustworthy and future agreements with the mages will be unreliable for they have shown their willingness to retract them.

 

Actually, we don't know what the Nevarran Accord said exactly or which rights and duties it talked about. The only thing we know is that the Inquisition and the Chantry signed it in 1:20, during the Second Blight and Emperor Drakon's reign; that the Circles, Templars and Seekers were born from it; and that Lambert considered it null and void after the Circle rebelled and thus a source of legitimacy to break away from the Chantry.

 

I hope we get some answers in DA:I, since the original Inquisition was disbanded because of that accord and now a new Inquisition is being formed.

[Kieran G.]

The fact is that if the Chantry truly follow the Chant of Light then they ought to be doing good work, it is part of the teachings of their prophet.   At a local level this does ensure a level of benevolence that would otherwise probably not exist.   It provides a source of stability and help for ordinary people who have pretty tough lives and would be even worse without it.   So for the ordinary reverend mothers in the villages the good they do does outweigh the bad aspects of the religion.

 

However, at the top level the Chantry does have a lot to answer for.   They do not stand up to the rulers and nobility and call them to account for their actions if they deem it expedient not to do so.    As an example, look at Orlais and the Chevaliers - their training where they lose recruits on the alienages to kill any elves they find is in direct contradiction of the Chant of Light and you can't tell me that the Chantry aren't aware of it; the rule that Chevaliers are entitled to take any girl they wish and their relatives cannot defend them without committing a capital offence, regardless of whether they do serious harm to the Chevalier or not; the law in Ferelden that makes it an offence to harm a human in defence of an elf; all these are things that the Chantry should have condemned as against the faith and yet have not.     The Chantry as an organisation is too closely tied to the welfare of those in power rather than the whole population as they should be.   The reason the chantry sister in the city elf origin takes no action is probably because she knows the law favours Vaughan - that is probably why even Duncan makes no objection.   The city guard only gets involved elves start killing humans.

 

The very fact that they removed all references to  Shartan from the Chant of Light and tried to humanise the only image of him that hadn't been destroyed says to me that they were well aware that what they did in effectively enslaving the elves and taking them from the Dales was wrong.     The Dales was given to the elves by divine mandate of their prophet and no mere mortal had the right to take them away - the leaders of the elves (the Dalish nobles) had fled, their other generals had died fighting or killed themselves rather than be taken captive.   It seems to me that those who remained where either too young, too old or too injured to fight and they could have perfectly well simply placed rulers over them whilst they converted them to the faith and then sworn them to abide by the peace.     Instead of that they rounded them up and placed them in alienages - slaves in all but name.   That was rank hypocrisy.

 

In Masked Empire Justinia all but refused to do anything about the mage/Templar situation unless Celene does something about the elves in Halamshiral.  Yet the mages and Templars were her responsibility regardless of what Celene does.   She could have condemned the noble for what he did and the law for not treating elves fairly, instead she all but insisted that Celene put down the elf rebellion that was brought on by the injustice in Halamshiral.   I also think she was wrong in Asunder in conducting magical research in secret without any form of oversight in place.   If she didn't want to involve the Templars, because she knew they would object, she should at least have ensured other mages were present.   That is why Circles are normally placed away from large centres of population and have Templars guards.     Even if mages were allowed to live freely in society, I would certainly still want dangerous research to be conducted in specific places with oversight to ensure that if it got out of hand, innocent citizens did not suffer. 

 

My characters are Andrastrians and try to follow the Chant of Light but that does not mean they approve of the Chantry because I feel they do not stand up for the faith sufficiently and apply its tenants across the board without distinction with regard to race, class or whatever.  

 

Incidentally, I have always wondered why the Maker never made any objection to rape or does it fall under the general heading of doing harm to those weaker than yourself?   Is this why, whenever this sort of crime occurs, it strikes me that people are never as outraged as I would expect them to be.    For example,  Aveline only takes sufficient interest in the crime of her guard in raping an elf girl after he has been killed - if she had immediately ordered an enquiry after she "heard a rumour" and suspended him from duty whilst it was conducted, then the elf brothers might never have taken the law into their own hand.

I agree with you that it is wrong what they do to the elves. but do remember why the Chantry has such prejudiced against the elves. The dalish attacked the seat of the Chantry and killed missionaries, so of course they would hate elves after the exalted march. and that just stayed the status quo for how you are supposed to feel. and what Celene did was put down a rebellion. nothing more. so what if they were elves? she would have done the same to a city full of humans who were rebelling against her rule.

[X Equestris]

Incidentally, I have always wondered why the Maker never made any objection to rape or does it fall under the general heading of doing harm to those weaker than yourself?   Is this why, whenever this sort of crime occurs, it strikes me that people are never as outraged as I would expect them to be.    For example,  Aveline only takes sufficient interest in the crime of her guard in raping an elf girl after he has been killed - if she had immediately ordered an enquiry after she "heard a rumour" and suspended him from duty whilst it was conducted, then the elf brothers might never have taken the law into their own hands.

Well, we haven't seen the entire Chant of Light. It could fall under harming the weak, or it could be addressed elsewhere. The only real piece of evidence we have of the Chantry's basic moral doctrine is the codex about the Maker's Commandments. If that was intended to be comparable to the real world Ten Commandments, then it is probably covered elsewhere in the Chant.

[LobselVith8]

Of course it does

But for some people just the fact that religion exists is a crime already so nothing will change these bigots' minds

 

I've seen people bring up what happened to the elves in the Dales, the prohibition of worship of the elven pantheon, the treatment of mages in the Chantry controlled Circles, or a number of other issues that pertain to the organization in Thedas; this has also been the case in threads that discuss the Chantry of Andraste and the Andrastian faith. Whether or not you agree, it's clear that people have their own reasons for not liking the Andrastian Chantry, so I don't see why you're saying that people simply dislike it because it's a religion.

[Kieran G.]

Well you can easily interpret parts of the chant of light to do harm. even leliana's verse she is known to say can be seen as approval to harm those who do not believe in the maker "the righteous shall stand before the darkness and the maker shall guide their hand." 

[DarthLaxian]

Yeah I never get the hate either...the Chantry has negatives (Exalted Marches and treatment of mages) but the Qunari are a thousand times worse on both regards and everyone loves them. Hell, the Chantry doesn't even care about most the social issues that people give real organized religions flak for.

 

Yes it does - It has reverse sexism (the catholic church gets flak because women can't have any higher office, the chantry just reverses this: men are idiots that can't have any office, they can be brothers and that's it!) for example

 

It represses minorities (elfs, dwarfs etc. - and: mages as you already stated), it influences politics (which religion should just not do, separation of church and state was developped for a reason...and in a lot of states that is still violated today and leads to such stupid decision like allowing male genital mutilation (circumcision) without any medical need (religious reasons or even aesthetic ones (!)), while punishing female genital mutilation - talk about double standards!), it threatens and kills people (seekers, templars and spies/assassins like Leliana) for religious reasons and it has it's own zealotish bullies (the templars) and it deals in drugs (Lyrium is essentially a drug...one that can be used for good by mages, but that's it, all other people are harmed by consuming it) and brainwashing (the people of Thedas against mages, mostly of course its own templars!), it destroys countries that don't comply with its wishes (the Dales!) and it preaches stuff that can't be proven (the creation of the Darkspawn by Tevinter magisters entering the black city...hell, most evidence points to the city being black already when they got there!) etc.

 

Yes, it does some good - but it's hopelessly zealous and backward in its methods and inhibits science (like the catholic church did and sometimes still does, by voting negatively in ethical commissions)

 

Note: I am a non-believer that's probably why you will never be able to convince me religion is good for anything (it's a delusion to me) - but I am normally not an "in your face" guy that belittles people for believing (I do feel sorry for them sometimes, but still, I see no reason to make fun of them) and that's why I can watch religions without much bias (I can say that the churches do some good (maybe even a lot - like in chantry does in Thedas), but that does not excuse the flaws they have and the scandals that are swept under the rug (white washes!) or just forgotten very fast (like the child-sexual-abuse in Germany and other nations, that is treated like it has never happened, just because the last scandal about it was a few years ago - they even had the audacity to shut of the abuse-hotline they created exactly because of that scandal barely a year later...) - that's why I don' like church, because no matter what good it does, as long as it has this much power, influence, money it is a danger to modern life for me, mostly because the organisation is never held accountable for what havoc is wrecked by its clergy (just like the chantry in Thedas, though they still have more influence...hell, I would not be surprised if the upper-level chantry sisters (revered mothers and above) do have sex and maybe even have families, just like the bishops/popes of old did in the catholic church!)

 

greetings LAX

ps: I want the separation of church and state inforced and religions to not be given tax-breaks anymore (!) - but I don't want religion forbidden (it just has no real place in the public sphere IMHO)

[Kieran G.]

Oh, I think it can easily be interpreted to do harm. I mean, Andraste herself waged war. It never claimed to be a pacifist religion. Particularly against slavery.

Meh i'm just waiting to see the random plot twist where Flemeth is Andraste and the chant of light is just a super evil spell. XD 

 

Edit: I'm kidding of course.

[Little Princess Peach]

Yush

The chantry does good work

at Terrorizing people whom are different to them and those whom have a different way of life.

weldone Chantry jolly good show!

 

The idiots that run teh chantry rule with fear they do not care about there own people nor there safety, heck even Alistair whom was raised in the chantry disbelifes what they preach, they even changed Andrastes words and manipulated events so it would serve them, in the end the Chantry are slavers because the ensalve mages.

[Vilegrim]

And the Qun forcibly converts local populations, and if you don't accept their ideology, they turn you into mindless laborers. Few people attack the Qun as strongly as they do the Chantry.

The Chantry, like almost everything in Dragon Age, is morally gray. I'm sure that members of their hierarchy go against what the Chant of Light says if it suits them.

As for the priestess in the CE origin, I'm sure Vaughan would have arrested her if she protested too vigorously. He had no qualms about abusing his power. Further, it's worth noting that that priestess is the only one that ministers to the elves.

 

 

You forget the Chantries kill on sight policy for other faiths.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Eveangeline:  Yes, but to join them (school cliques since you seemed to focus on that)... you must convert.  SO - they present themselves as a "more appealing" group (going to heaven if you join us?) and then, upon trying to join them, they require you to convert to their mentality.

 

Even the outcast kids are surrounded by superiority complexes.  The nerds are smarter than you, the goth/emo/whatever they're called now kids feel more darkness than you/the artists are better dreamers than you.  Everyone finds their "heaven" - everyone holds it on a pedestal - everyone requires conversion for entrance. 

 

And, not unlike religion, it is the rare charismatic personality that can walk between several of them at once.

 

This whole notion that religion is somehow "more" insidious and more subversive than anything else is just the secular clique trying to feel better than the "other clique".  That, or it's just plain ignorance. 

[Beerfish]

Yush

The chantry does good work

at Terrorizing people whom are different to them and those whom have a different way of life.

weldone Chantry jolly good show!

 

The idiots that run teh chantry rule with fear they do not care about there own people nor there safety, heck even Alistair whom was raised in the chantry disbelifes what they preach, they even changed Andrastes words and manipulated events so it would serve them, in the end the Chantry are slavers because the ensalve mages.

Wrong, you are taking one aspect of their influence, that being templars and painting the whole thing with that brush, not fair and not logical.  It's also totally unfair and not logical to characterize all mages as being anti circle, anti chantry when in fact a good number of them are not.

 

Ask the majority of the people in the lands, those that are not mages, family of mages, templars, family of templars how they feel about how the chantry operates and the vast majority are happy with it.  Including the way mages are handled.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Ask the majority of the people in the lands, those that are not mages, family of mages, templars, family of templars how they feel about how the chantry operates and the vast majority are happy with it.  Including the way mages are handled.

Of course they do, they've never known anything different, and they are so thoroughly indoctrinated that any other alternative would be all but inconceivable to them. If you went to Europe in the Middle Ages and asked what people thought of the church, you would hear nothing but glowing praise (because anyone who didn't would be branded a heretic and killed). The popularity of the Chantry proves nothing except that it is successful in scaring an ignorant populace into obedience. The Chantry, like all religions, is a long con.

[Vilegrim]

Wrong, you are taking one aspect of their influence, that being templars and painting the whole thing with that brush, not fair and not logical.  It's also totally unfair and not logical to characterize all mages as being anti circle, anti chantry when in fact a good number of them are not.

 

Ask the majority of the people in the lands, those that are not mages, family of mages, templars, family of templars how they feel about how the chantry operates and the vast majority are happy with it.  Including the way mages are handled.

 

 

yet it is a legitimate in universe reason to hate them .   The whole 'kill all unbelievers on sight' thing cannot be overstated as well.

[X Equestris]

You forget the Chantries kill on sight policy for other faiths.

Not necessarily. The Chantry tolerates the dwarves. They haven't waged campaigns to convert the Avvar and Chasind. They do hate the Tevinter Chantry, but that is at least partly due to what Tevinter is thought of in the south. The Qunari have tried to convert everyone, so the Chantry taking a hard line is understandable.

Rivain is a good example that your assertion is false. The Chantry, Rivaini pantheon, and Qunari all manage to coexist.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Kind of funny that it sparks this much criticism. Since David Gaider created Thedas and the Chantry to be a place where religion wasn't so in your face all the time. He was comparing it to D&D, where gods and goddesses were everywhere, affecting everyday life in numerous ways. He created Dragon Age to be the opposite of that. Where religion is lowkey and gods didn't have any real power or no one was sure even existed.
 
And yet it still sets people off, just for it's mere presence.

Did he? The whole issue of religion seems incredibly in your face throughout Dragon Age; you have the White and Black Chantries, you have the Dalish gods, the Old Gods of Tevinter, the Qunari, the Chasind, and the Avvar and their respective gods, plus the actual spirit of the Fade all getting mixed in things. If you compare DA to A Song of Ice and Fire, where the old gods of the north and the Seven get a brief mention periodically, DA is infested with deities and religions and religious conflicts. If David Gaider's goal was to have religion be a background matter, it doesn't really seem to have panned out that way. From where I sit, religion is heavily involved in most of the major conflicts of DA.

[Burricho]

The chantry gets a lot of flack from people, often seeming because they have an in real life beef with christianity or religion in general. However, I feel in doing so they ignore the legitimately good work they provide to the people.

 

The chantry seems to offer services of education and shelter for those in society not fortunate enough to afford tutors, such as the upper class nobles and merchants. They give aid in the form of relief workers and supplies in times of crisis and push for humanitarian efforts and practices, calling out and attempting to fight against exploitative business practices as we've seen in DAO.

 

They are the primary caregiver for orphans, offering them a future beyond begging in the street or pursuing a life of crime. And can act as a power check and balance against political elites looking to exploit citizens, having their own military branch to do so.

 

The chantry also keeps a tight leash on lyrium, a dangerous substance that can outright kill or make crazy those who handle it, and keeps it from flooding the market and falling into ill gotten hands, such as cartels who would no doubt use the substance as a poison or explosive.

 

The chantrys poor reputation among those looking to make some sort of point against organized religion, should not detract from the very real fact that the chantry, not the lords or teryns or viscounts or deshers, do more to help those in the lower reaches of society then anyone else. If the chantry wasn't around, you'd most likely have orzummar's system which not only makes you bound to forever be poor and destitute if you fall on hard times, but makes it a crime to be poor, and a serious offense to offer any sort of help or aid to them, or opportunity to better themselves.

 

Given that choice, or choosing to have a organization that offers aid and good will to those who need it, I think I'd take the chantry any day.

Oh sure, they give aid. Except to anyone who is not human.

Oh not only that, the reason they control lyrium is to keep the templars hooked on it.  The templars do not help beat organized crime. They are radicalists who kill mages.