It gets mentioned often, but it's always up in the air that it could all be bunk. This is a different approach to D&D and other settings, where you can't even dispute the gods.
Totally agree OP. I find it strange and hypocritical that people bash the Chantry for putting mages in circles (the one in Ferelden was awesome and cushy and the mages lived better than 99% of the population) yet they just looooove the Qun who cut out the tongues and sew shut the eyes of mages and then drag them around on leashes to be used like living weapons as well as stealing children away from their parents, brainwashing people into zombie-like slaves, and killing anyone who disagrees/doesn't like their "role."
I feel like people's hatred of real life religion definitely contributes to their hatred of Sebastian and Elthina. Elthina was a nice old lady that actually tried to make peace but didn't have much effect. She is commonly hated for not becoming a revolutionary and freeing all the mages or something. For one thing she's old, the wild part of her life is behind her and she thinks people can learn to get along without violence. For another, what do people think would happen if she tried to do that? The Templars are in charge of the circle, not her. Meredith would have ignored her orders and had her cast down for heresy or something. The Viscount is a nice old man who doesn't even try to do anything ever. He just sits there and lets some refugee handle everything, making you do all his errands. To me they're almost the same with the Viscount being worse but people don't hate him the way they do her. People hate Sebastian and call him "preachy" and say he "shoves his religion down their throat" when that's really not true. He talks about the maker and Andraste less than Anders or Fenris rant about mages, less than Isabella talks about sex, etc...but they don't have a problem with those characters talking about their issues. The thing that blows my mind the most is that they hate him because he makes threats at the end of the game if you don't kill the terrorist who just murdered what was essentially his mother, his friends, and a lot of innocents right in front of them. What would you do in that situation?
NEVER.They shall submit to the Qun.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
NEVER.
Humans rule, qun drools.
That's true, just for outside/marketing reasons alone. Qunari will always be a side race. No one is submitting to them, longterm. The whole franchise would change too much.
It wud be good to hear that from u when a magister sacrifices u for some sick blood magic experimentThe Orlesian chantry is crumbling its time to let it rot and die. Embrace the Imperial chantry, embrace Tevinter.
Plus humans throughout history have conquered any threat.That's true, just for outside/marketing reasons alone. Qunari will always be a side race. No one is submitting to them, longterm. The whole franchise would change too much.
Totally agree OP. I find it strange and hypocritical that people bash the Chantry for putting mages in circles (the one in Ferelden was awesome and cushy and the mages lived better than 99% of the population) yet they just looooove the Qun who cut out the tongues and sew shut the eyes of mages and then drag them around on leashes to be used like living weapons as well as stealing children away from their parents, brainwashing people into zombie-like slaves, and killing anyone who disagrees/doesn't like their "role."
I feel like people's hatred of real life religion definitely contributes to their hatred of Sebastian and Elthina. Elthina was a nice old lady that actually tried to make peace but didn't have much effect. She is commonly hated for not becoming a revolutionary and freeing all the mages or something. For one thing she's old, the wild part of her life is behind her and she thinks people can learn to get along without violence. For another, what do people think would happen if she tried to do that? The Templars are in charge of the circle, not her. Meredith would have ignored her orders and had her cast down for heresy or something. The Viscount is a nice old man who doesn't even try to do anything ever. He just sits there and lets some refugee handle everything, making you do all his errands. To me they're almost the same with the Viscount being worse but people don't hate him the way they do her. People hate Sebastian and call him "preachy" and say he "shoves his religion down their throat" when that's really not true. He talks about the maker and Andraste less than Anders or Fenris rant about mages, less than Isabella talks about sex, etc...but they don't have a problem with those characters talking about their issues. The thing that blows my mind the most is that they hate him because he makes threats at the end of the game if you don't kill the terrorist who just murdered what was essentially his mother, his friends, and a lot of innocents right in front of them. What would you do in that situation?
Plus humans throughout history have conquered any threat.
Pfff, they merely massacred enough Civilians so the Qunari would show Pity and retreat to a Position, where they couldn't be driven out. When they come back, Thedas shall submit or burn!
Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meerad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esam Qun.
Tevinter will never submit to the slaves of the Qun.Pfff, they merely massacred enough Civilians so the Qunari would show Pity and retreat to a Position, where they couldn't be driven out. When they come back, Thedas shall submit or burn!
Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meerad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esam Qun.
Kind of funny that it sparks this much criticism. Since David Gaider created Thedas and the Chantry to be a place where religion wasn't so in your face all the time. He was comparing it to D&D, where gods and goddesses were everywhere, affecting everyday life in numerous ways. He created Dragon Age to be the opposite of that. Where religion is lowkey and gods didn't have any real power or no one was sure even existed.
And yet it still sets people off, just for it's mere presence.
It causes people to have strong opinions on the matter, one way or another, because the Chantry has been part of events that players feel strongly about, like the war with the Dales, the Chantry controlled Circles, the occupation of Ferelden - it's not as though people are saying that they dislike the Andrastian Chantry simply because it's a religious organization, but rather what it's done as an organization. It's why some people have even expressed that they would have no problem with the Chantry, as long as it no longer held any power anymore.
Saying that the Chantry's "mere presence" sets people off isn't true for most people who have expressed why they dislike the Chantry. Whether you agree with their reasons is another matter entirely, but it's certainly not just because it's a religious organization.
You forget the Chantries kill on sight policy for other faiths.
Didn't kill sten. Didn't kill dwarf warden. Didn't kill dalish warden. Didn't kill morrigan. Didnd't kill oghren. Didn't kill nelanna. Didn't kill merril.
Please tell me where they killed on sight in game.
I see the Chantry as the lesser of multiple evils, and a necessary one at that. So... I guess I'm pro-Chantry when it comes down to it.
(which religion should just not do, separation of church and state was developped for a reason...and in a lot of states that is still violated today and leads to such stupid decision like allowing male genital mutilation (circumcision) without any medical need (religious reasons or even aesthetic ones (!)), while punishing female genital mutilation - talk about double standards!)
I wholeheartedly agree with the separation of church & state, but I'd hardly label male circumcision as mutilation.
Female circumcision, absolutely, but not male circumcision.
The two are completely different and only one of them has any medical benefits. The other is pure, unadulterated misogyny with a religious excuse.
Some oppose the chantry because they oppose organized religion. Just as some defend it for the same.
It is no more moral or corrupt then anything else in Thedas, it just happens to be one of the more powerful.
The Chantry has good and bad
The Dalish have good and bad
The Templars have good and bad
The Mages have good and bad
Ferelden has good and bad nobles
The imperium has good and bad Magisters
The imperial chantry has good and bad
The Qunari have good and bad
The dwarves have good and bad
Examples of bad: Dalish Clan in ME, things we learned about elves of Arlathan in ME, templars being portrayed as Thedas Nazis in DA2, Blood mages/abominations/etc, Howe, the King who attacked and banned the grey wardens, Magisters in general 
. lack of personal freedoms in the Qun, the Carta, Dirt Town, Classless, surface dwarf hypocrisy, killing one of their own cities to keep their economic connections with the magisters running smoothly, etc etc etc
The issue is that the Chantry has had a very prominent role in most of the games, and was largely portrayed horribly in DA2 especially compared to the amount of exposure we have actually had to the evils and negatives of other races, organizations, and countries.
Totally agree OP. I find it strange and hypocritical that people bash the Chantry for putting mages in circles (the one in Ferelden was awesome and cushy and the mages lived better than 99% of the population) yet they just looooove the Qun who cut out the tongues and sew shut the eyes of mages and then drag them around on leashes to be used like living weapons as well as stealing children away from their parents, brainwashing people into zombie-like slaves, and killing anyone who disagrees/doesn't like their "role."
The one in Ferelden, where a mage was going to be made tranquil without the First Enchanter seeing any evidence of his guilt? With the moderate First Enchanter who said that life in the Circle of Ferelden was a matter of survival and stated, "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness." Let's just say that I respectfully disagree with you about the Circle.
Furthermore, there are a plethora of people who stated their dislike of MoTA because it forced them into a pro-Qunari position (as well as with Tallis' views), so I don't see why you think most people who disagree with the Circles like the Qun.
I feel like people's hatred of real life religion definitely contributes to their hatred of Sebastian and Elthina. Elthina was a nice old lady that actually tried to make peace but didn't have much effect. She is commonly hated for not becoming a revolutionary and freeing all the mages or something. For one thing she's old, the wild part of her life is behind her and she thinks people can learn to get along without violence. For another, what do people think would happen if she tried to do that? The Templars are in charge of the circle, not her. Meredith would have ignored her orders and had her cast down for heresy or something. me if you don't kill the terrorist who just murdered what was essentially his mother, his friends, and a lot of innocents right in front of them. What would you do in that situation?
You know what the problem is with this entire part of your post? It's addressing how people have actual reasons for not liking Grand Cleric Elthina, whether you agree with them or not - you're basically making the case for me that it's not an issue of how people feel about real world religion, but about other matters entirely pertaining to the world of Thedas. Pointing out that Elthna's inaction is why some people take issue with her already dismisses the initial claim you make that it's players "hatred of real life religion", which comes across as an incredibly lazy way to dismiss points you disagree with.
People hate Sebastian and call him "preachy" and say he "shoves his religion down their throat" when that's really not true. He talks about the maker and Andraste less than Anders or Fenris rant about mages, less than Isabella talks about sex, etc...but they don't have a problem with those characters talking about their issues. The thing that blows my mind the most is that they hate him because he makes threats at the end of the game if you don't kill the terrorist who just murdered what was essentially his mother, his friends, and a lot of innocents right in front of them. What would you do in that situation?
You're making another case for me where you're pointing out that some people dislike Sebastian because they don't want to kill Anders, or where they oppose his threats against Kirkwall - in other words, things that don't pertain to real world religion. Putting aside the whole issue of Anders' actions, people opposing the Prince of Starkhaven for wanting Anders dead or his threats addresses that those players have their own reasons for disliking the character.
As for the Andrastian faith, some people bring up Sebastian's comment about thinking the Dalish are souls "awaiting the Light" when they talk about his role as a faithful Andrastian; while I don't agree with Sebastian's Andrastian views, I don't dislike the character, either. I've also seen people who dislike Anders pushing his Andrastian faith on Merrill when she says she doesn't share the Andrastian view of Spirits and Demons, and I'm one of those people.
I think that's why the 3 no nos in dinner party talking...don't talk about religion, sex or politics.
The we come to the BW forum and do just that, but we call it Chantry, LIs and game politics...nothing like pressing those buttons.
Pro-Templar, Andrastian female inquisitor who intends to romance Cullen.
I'm not sure if it's fair to generalize that people dislike the Chantry because they have beef with real life religions. The Chantry advocates behavior and actions that some people don't like. People who don't understand I suppose, are quick to assume that these people must be 'religion haters' or something, I dunno. I guess it's just defensiveness. *shrugs*
I didn't like Sebastian and Elthina because I found them both hypocritical. Also Elthina just stood there while **** was going down and never helped or listened to anything I said, and it got on my nerves. I didn't want her to die, but her being a nice old lady wasn't enough to make me like her character even though she frustrated me so much.
edit: I'd also like to say I agree the Chantry does do good work, and I'm glad of that, but I don't support all of it's goals and way of handling things.
I don't think people like the Qun so much that they thought the Arishock in Dragon Age 2 was the only level-headed person in the game and thought the game Kirkwall was so shitty that it deserved to burned to the ground.
I also think many people who dislike the Chantry are also people who dislike the Circle because the Chantry ultimately controls it.
I'm not sure if it's fair to generalize that people dislike the Chantry because they have beef with real life religions. The Chantry advocates behavior and actions that some people don't like. People who don't understand I suppose, are quick to assume that these people must be 'religion haters' or something, I dunno. I guess it's just defensiveness. *shrugs*
I didn't like Sebastian and Elthina because I found them both hypocritical. Also Elthina just stood there while **** was going down and never helped or listened to anything I said, and it got on my nerves. I didn't want her to die, but her being a nice old lady wasn't enough to make me like her character even though she frustrated me so much.
edit: I'd also like to say I agree the Chantry does do good work, and I'm glad of that, but I don't support all of it's goals and way of handling things.
Elthina's problem wasn't that she was an old woman or that she ignored everyone, her problem was that she actually believed that the people of Kirkwall could come to a mature, peaceful solution to the problem. She had so much faith that humanity knew to do the right thing that it eventually killed her. She made a fatal overestimation of the intelligence of the people that she cared about and wanted to help.
I feel like people's hatred of real life religion definitely contributes to their hatred of Sebastian and Elthina. Elthina was a nice old lady that actually tried to make peace but didn't have much effect.
That is why I do not like Elthina, at all. It is not my 'hatred of religion', I went to church every Sunday as a child and still very much in touch with my religious beliefs which are very much Christian.
But she is in a leadership position and her neutrality simple exasperated the situation and made it worse in the end. She should have put up and shut up or stepped down. So the whole thing would have happened sooner? Whooopie doooo, she was supposed to lead and she did not and I simply despise people like that.
As for Sebastian I just didnt like him, or am I not allowed to? Though I do feel for both him and Anders, because honestly if someone tried to take a member of my family to the Mages circle it would get very very bloody very quickly. Same if someone blew them to !#%! and back.
While we are on this subject I DONT LIKE THE CHANTRY AND HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MY RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. It has to do with the fact they bring these children into this circles, tell them that they are monsters, and that demons will make them kill everyone. You give a group absolute power and thats what it does. Im not saying there should be no Chantry, I am saying it needs serious reform and at the moment its a broken system and half the time I just want to burn it down and start over. Though you should no in the 'Freedom VRS Security' debate I do agree with Franklin
“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."― Benjamin Franklin
I think the game does a really good job of leaving everything up to interpretation. If you feel the Chantry does good work that's great. It just means when the series eventually concludes your worldstate is going to look radically different from any of ours who feel differently. I doubt any outcome will be ideal, just as I doubt that any will be a fail-state.
My personal issue with the Chantry comes from the very first impression I had of them - Mage Origin, not even a minute in you're told by the Templars you have to confront a demon and succeed, or be executed on the spot. You are given next to no context prior to this, and it's a very jarring start which immediately informs a mage player the nature of their relationship with the Templars. At a whim the Templars, with the blessing of the Chantry, can kill you - and no one will lift a finger to stop it.
Granted, this all becomes much more complicated once you start learning more about the lore - however I've said it in another thread on this subject; first impressions are everything. There's a reason my mage character was very anti-Chantry, and it had nothing to do with my own feelings about any RL religion. It had everything to do with how the Chant portrayed mages as almost subhuman things that needed to be locked away from the rest of society; and if believed to be consorting with demons should be put to death.
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