1391 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

The DRC has been in a state of civil war longer then i have been alive, rebellions, civil wars and such don't tend to result in peace.

 

They tend to result more fighting; That's what we are seeing in Iraq and Syria, Libya last i heard was still having a rough time of it as well.

 

So when you "win" and immediately resume fighting, is it truly a victory?

 

Yes, because victory is measured in different measures. The British Empire defeated numerous rebellions but passive resistance as well as the costs of these rebellions eventually broke it up. It simply became too expensive to be an Empire when peace was more profitable. I'm fairly sure a lot of people considered this a huge victory even if the result includes many of the civil wars and strife this day. I doubt the Iraqis and Iranians would rather be British subjects, for example. But I prefer using in-universe examples than RL.

But yes, history is more or less countless monarchies being overthrown all the time. However, they don't often get recognized as rebellions because when Richard II was overthrown, he was replaced by another King immediately thereafter. The same for the various Dynasties of China. In general, rebellions are a lot more successful than people give them credit for.

 

They just tend to be rebellions of very well-armed men and nobles over impoverished peasants because, well, logic.

[Lulupab]

Yeah, though it's clear that Gaspard has designs on Fereldan.
Worse, Fereldan is also weakened by the Blight.
I wouldn't be surprised if Orlais considers Fereldan's monarchy in rebellion from their "lawful" Orlais rulers.

Except val royeaux and some areas around it, all Orlesian lands are stolen from its neighbors.

[Willowhugger]

Except val royeaux and some areas around it, all Orlesian lands are stolen from its neighbors.

 

Another good example of history.

Orlais is a bunch of stolen land.

 

But, then again, so is Fereldan.

Callenhad isn't King by right, he conquered the lands of Fereldan and united them. If a Cousland rebelled against him and took over, is he a rebel or is he returning to the ancient rites of his land?

That's why I find most talk of treason and who is "right" in war, nonsensical.

Lambert was right if he wins.

The Mages are right if they win.

The Inquisitor WILL be right because they WILL win.

[Lulupab]

Yes, because victory is measured in different measures. The British Empire defeated numerous rebellions but passive resistance as well as the costs of these rebellions eventually broke it up. It simply became too expensive to be an Empire when peace was more profitable. I'm fairly sure a lot of people considered this a huge victory even if the result includes many of the civil wars and strife this day. I doubt the Iraqis and Iranians would rather be British subjects, for example. But I prefer using in-universe examples than RL.
But yes, history is more or less countless monarchies being overthrown all the time. However, they don't often get recognized as rebellions because when Richard II was overthrown, he was replaced by another King immediately thereafter. The same for the various Dynasties of China. In general, rebellions are a lot more successful than people give them credit for.
 
They just tend to be rebellions of very well-armed men and nobles over impoverished peasants because, well, logic.

Precisely. The Iranian rebelled like twice a year. It became too expensive for British.

[Master Warder Z_]

Except val royeaux and some areas around it, all Orlesian lands are stolen from its neighbors.

 

Is it really "stolen" by this point?

 

It's been Orleisian now for longer then some countries have existed.

[TheJediSaint]

Is it really "stolen" by this point?

 

It's been Orleisian now for longer then some countries have existed.

They conquered those lands fair and square!

[Lulupab]

Another good example of history.
Orlais is a bunch of stolen land.

But, then again, so is Fereldan.
Callenhad isn't King by right, he conquered the lands of Fereldan and united them.

That's different, uniting tribes is different than stealing land. Callenhad just took leadership, that land belongs to him and every single other Ferelden. Its their ancestral land.

[Willowhugger]

Is it really "stolen" by this point?

 

It's been Orleisian now for longer then some countries have existed.

 

Well, the parts which border Nevarra might disagree.

 

And I'm sure Tevinter considers all of it stolen.

Also, some guys called the Dalish.

They object to this Dales section of Orlais which doesn't seem to self-identify as Orlaisian either.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yes, because victory is measured in different measures. 

 

The measure i most often apply to a military situation is what is the goal of the opposition, if it is achieved or not.

 

More often then not, these rebellions NEVER achieve their ultimate objective, and therefore to me from a military standpoint, they are failures even if they succeed on the field.

 

That's the funny bit about fighting going past nobles fighting over territory, when you involve ideologies, and social constructs it gets far more taxing to actually achieve your aim.

 

Seizing territory, populations and alike is relatively simple.

 

Converting others to a religion or ideology however is a much more complicated chore.

 

So it's not as if i don't give "rebellions" their due.

 

I just acknowledge most of them fail.

[Master Warder Z_]

Also, some guys called the Dalish.

They object to this Dales section of Orlais which doesn't seem to self-identify as Orlaisian either.

 

Who cares what a bunch of ingrate knife ears think.

 

Turning their back on Shartan's god like they did.

[Willowhugger]

That's different, uniting tribes is different than stealing land. Callenhad just took leadership, that land belongs to him and every single other Ferelden. Its their ancestral land.

 

I imagine he conquered all of the kings and queens of the period and they became Fereldan because they surrendered and decided it was better than winning.

In the end, Kingship is just a bunch of people agreeing you're in charge because of fear or you being better at killing people who threaten them.

 

In Game of Thrones terms, Callenhad was Aegon the Conqueror.

Like Aeon, Callenhad's descendants did a good job uniting the land.

[Willowhugger]

Who cares what a bunch of ingrate knife ears think.

 

Turning their back on Shartan's god like they did.

Hey, hey, watch the language!

No racist anti-elf slurs!

Bioware will surely perma-ban us for such!

:-)

[Lulupab]

I imagine he conquered all of the kings and queens of the period and they became Fereldan because they surrendered and decided it was better than winning.
In the end, Kingship is just a bunch of people agreeing you're in charge because of fear or you being better at killing people who threaten them.
 
In Game of Thrones terms, Callenhad was Aegon the Conqueror.

Like Aeon, Callenhad's descendants did a good job uniting the land.

That's a good example because as you see the previous owners are now Banns of Ferelden, they don't rule it but they rule their own land but obey the king. Much like royal families of Westeros. Callenhad just took leadership and created a nation, that land is theirs. So in a sense he united them he did use force but it was not outright conquer because as I said they are still in power and can decide the future of Ferelden.

[Willowhugger]

The measure i most often apply to a military situation is what is the goal of the opposition, if it is achieved or not.

I disagree with you and also think history disagrees with you. If one's goal is peace eternal, yes, that's completely wrong but a lot of rebellions like Maric's simply have the goal of "get the orlaisians to leave." Maric's rebellion had the successful quality that they had a military leader and legitimate noble heir to rally around as well with the Arldom of Redcliffe to marry into his lineage and solidify his claim too.

 

In the case of Gaspard's rebellion, he has a very-very easy military goal to achieve. "Kill Celene and become Emperor."

 

Obviously, when rebellions have unclear goals, they tend to fail but history is filled with rebellions with fairly clear goals. They just tend to wander off if they don't have a clear goal past, "kill the king so I'm king."

The French Revolution and Bolshevik Revolution went astray because they were social revolutions. But we're talking about other revolutions. The City Elven Rebellion may succeed if they have terms which are clear like, "free the Dales again."

It will fail if it's just "riot."

[Willowhugger]

That's a good example because as you see the previous owners are now Banns of Ferelden, they don't rule it but they rule their own land but obey the king. Much like royal families of Westeros. Callenhad just took leadership and created a nation, that land is theirs. So in a sense he united them he did use force but it was not outright conquer because as I said they are still in power and can decide the future of Ferelden.

 

It is pretty much the heart of why the elf situation is such a travesty and why it hasn't gotten any better. The elves are in dispora and scattered across Thedas but do not "disappear" into the populace or assimilate.

 

Likewise, the populace gives no reason for the elves to assimilate so the elves have no reason NOT to want to rebel.

 

Fear is the only thing keeping them in line and with no carrot, they just simmer and brood.

Sort of like the mages.

[Master Warder Z_]

I disagree with you and also think history disagrees with you.

 

History is what has shown me this lesson.

 

It's also why i think the mage rebellion is doomed, along with any possible elven issue.

[Willowhugger]

History is what has shown me this lesson.

 

It's also why i think the mage rebellion is doomed, along with any possible elven issue.

It depends how much resolve each side has.

If the elves refuse to be ruled by humans, even to the point of genocide, it'll succeed.

If they don't have the resolve, it'll fail.

[Master Warder Z_]

It depends how much resolve each side has.

If the elves refuse to be ruled by humans, even to the point of genocide, it'll succeed.

If they don't have the resolve, it'll fail.

 

No the elves will fail simply because they cannot succeeded.

 

Resolve cannot undo reality. Another lesson history taught.

 

Their sun set a long time before the first game started.

 

Before the Chantry allowed them to exist among humanity, saving their race, before the Dales was even gifted to them by humanity.

 

They are a shadow, a fragment.

 

Just waiting to fade.

[Willowhugger]

No the elves will fail simply because they cannot succeeded.

 

Resolve cannot undo reality. Another lesson history taught.

 

If we're talking about the Dalish, I agree. Those guys are Renassiance Faire renactors. The City Elves, though? The City Elves are a new power. A new power which is harder, stronger, and hungrier than the disgusting fat slobs around them.

Civilization has not made them soft.

 

The City Elves will kill this Orlaisian disease!

 

The lands will run red with the blood of Shemlen and a NEW Empire will rise!

[Elfyoth]

And what? we can have some non-mages and they can't go to the fade and do what magisters did and we have magisters who could did that.And we know that why as i said corry that is a darkspawn and went to the black city and last thing he remember is black city pretty much he confirmed chantry version outside maker part.

And no non-mages aren't just as dangerous as i said knife isn't just as dangerous as nuclear bomb...

And what? Becouse some pepole do bad you'll panish all of them? Btw writing from Iphone sorry.

[Master Warder Z_]

The lands will run red with the blood of Shemlen and a NEW Empire will rise!

 

You should pass whatever your smoking to me...it must be pretty good.

[Willowhugger]

You should pass whatever your smoking to me...it must be pretty good.

 

My Elven Bride Warden has proven it can be done.

:-)

[TTTX]

And what? Becouse some pepole do bad you'll panish all of them? Btw writing from Iphone sorry.

Yeah he does, please don't discuss with him as you won't change his mind no matter what you do.

[Master Warder Z_]

My Elven Bride Warden has proven it can be done.

:-)

 

Uh...

 

You mean consort of a king of a backwater no one really gives a **** about, besides when they are trying to conquer it? (That was the highlight of my own city elf warden)

 

Oh my, its a golden age!

 

I am just waiting for the elves to die out, either by sword and war or just simply interbreeding with humanity.

[Willowhugger]

Uh...

 

You mean consort of a king of a backwater no one really gives a **** about, besides when they are trying to conquer it? (That was the highlight of my own city elf warden)

 

Oh my, its a golden age!

 

I am just waiting for the elves to die out, either by sword and war or just simply interbreeding with humanity.

 

Urban sprawl and poverty doesn't usually lead to numbers growing smaller.

Quite the opposite in fact.

I imagine the City Elves probably outnumber their previous ranks in the Dales.