1391 réponses à ce sujet

[Little Princess Peach]

Wrong, you are taking one aspect of their influence, that being templars and painting the whole thing with that brush, not fair and not logical.  It's also totally unfair and not logical to characterize all mages as being anti circle, anti chantry when in fact a good number of them are not.

 

Ask the majority of the people in the lands, those that are not mages, family of mages, templars, family of templars how they feel about how the chantry operates and the vast majority are happy with it.  Including the way mages are handled.

duh because that is the only way they know, the chantry has brainwashed people in to thinking just like them play the games or watch the youtube videos you can see every npc thinks the same way when it comes to the chantry go on I'll wait....

 

You can smell the brainwashing thats going on there Bioware did a great job

[Feybrad]

Tevinter will never submit to the slaves of the Qun.

 

Then it's Fate is sealed.

[Spicen]

Didn't kill sten. Didn't kill dwarf warden. Didn't kill dalish warden. Didn't kill morrigan. Didnd't kill oghren. Didn't kill nelanna. Didn't kill merril.

Please tell me where they killed on sight in game.

The chantry kills gamers. The fact that an organized religion exists kills some gamers.

[Spicen]

Some oppose the chantry because they oppose organized religion. Just as some defend it for the same.

It is no more moral or corrupt then anything else in Thedas, it just happens to be one of the more powerful.

The Chantry has good and bad
The Dalish have good and bad
The Templars have good and bad
The Mages have good and bad
Ferelden has good and bad nobles
The imperium has good and bad Magisters
The imperial chantry has good and bad
The Qunari have good and bad
The dwarves have good and bad

Examples of bad: Dalish Clan in ME, things we learned about elves of Arlathan in ME, templars being portrayed as Thedas Nazis in DA2, Blood mages/abominations/etc, Howe, the King who attacked and banned the grey wardens, Magisters in general . lack of personal freedoms in the Qun, the Carta, Dirt Town, Classless, surface dwarf hypocrisy, killing one of their own cities to keep their economic connections with the magisters running smoothly, etc etc etc

The issue is that the Chantry has had a very prominent role in most of the games, and was largely portrayed horribly in DA2 especially compared to the amount of exposure we have actually had to the evils and negatives of other races, organizations, and countries.

Quite a reasonable post.

[Spicen]

It is hardly the Chantry's fault that mages are cursed from birth.

Context

We have to remember the chantry prevented the original templars from making mages extinct in the first place.

[EiraDragonsong]

It is hardly the Chantry's fault that mages are cursed from birth.

Context

 

Im sorry that is not the smartest thing to say. Its almost like saying

 

"It is hardly the Churches fault that a gays are cursed from birth"

 

Context.

 

I realize that that if you are Homosexual you are not conjuring demons, controlling peoples mind or what not, but both are have been persecuted because of something that they can not control, both have been demonized for it, and both groups have died from it and many of each sect are proud to be 'cursed'. This does NOT give the Chantry a right to prosecute innocent mages and treat them as subhuman, and before anyone yells at me once again i am Christian i just don't believe in everything the Church does

[Spicen]

Then it's Fate is sealed.

Actually the qunari cant even fully control Seheron, let alone Minrathous. I like the tevinter only in this aspect.

Considering many things, DA4, if there ever is one, will be about humans vs Qunari.
As sten said, they will invade again.

[berelinde]

Sure, the chantry does good work, such as feeding and educating those not fortunate enough to afford tutors, such as the children born of mages who were raped by templars.  But that comes to a screeching halt if those children show signs of magic themselves, because they'll be thrown right back into the Circle (where the cycle will no doubt continue).

 

We don't see much evidence of this good work the Chantry is allegedly doing. We don't see priests handing out alms or taking in strays. We do see a mage who wanted to obey the law and join the Circle in Kirkwall, and who only became an apostate because the Chantry refused to support the orphans she was caring for: Evelina.  Elsa, Meredith's Tranquil assistant will even confirm this. So in Kirkwall, at least, that's zero evidence of the Chantry sheltering orphans and two strong cases of them refusing to do so.

 

And even in Origins, in the less brutal Circle at Kinloch Hold, the dungeons are full of human bones and a variety of torture devices.  That doesn't sound like benevolent stewardship to me.

 

And really, I would not call the lyrium monopoly an act of goodwill. They deliberately cause human beings to become addicted to an inevitably lethal substance so that they can control them. Templars do need traces of lyrium in their bloodstream to do the magic that they do (templar abilities are really, really similar to spells from the Spirit and Entropy schools), but the chantry gives them a great deal more than that to enhance their ability to control them.

 

And that's ignoring the fact that the Chantry condones blood magic. That's what phylacteries are for. It's just different because it's them doing it.

 

I don't hate the Chantry. I have a few characters who actively support it, and I have others that would cheerfully hand Anders the torch. I myself have no real opinion because it isn't real. In the game, however, it's the biggest power in Thedas, and the authority it wields is absolute. Anytime you have all of the power resting with one group – Chantry or Tevinter magisters, it makes no difference – it is bound to become corrupt. It's human nature.

[dragonflight288]

I haven't read every page, and I'm not a big fan of the Chantry in general, but here's how I see it. 

 

There are those in the Chantry who do good. They go out of their way to try and help others. But the Chantry as a whole does have racist attitudes and tendencies. I think Gaider or Laidlaw talked about how the Chantry simply will not publicly acknowledge the elves as being equal in the sight of the Maker as humans, and by its very implication of that statement, simply see elves as inferior to humans. 

 

It was the Chantry that declared that all elves had to live in alienages. 

 

The Qunari may be far more ruthless, but they have something that the Chantry does not. Fair treatment of all races. And by that, I mean that if you convert, they will not treat you differently based on your race. You won't be forced to live in an alienage, you won't have to worry about racism. What you do have to worry about is fulfilling your role in the Qun. And they give you your role based on your merit and not your race. Unless you're a mage. 

 

Another thing that the Chantry does that really aggravates me is their favoritism of Orlais. They were founded by Drakon I and helped him build the nation of Orlais through a series of Exalted Marches. They side with Orlais in every major conflict, and many minor ones. Heck, the Divine tried to order her Templars to interfere with Kirkwall's trade because the Viscount at the time was raising tariffs on Orlesian goods. This had nothing to do with the Chantry and everything to do with Orlesian interests. 

 

Also, in the Stolen Throne, we see that the Chantry was aiding Orlais and even endorsed to a certain degree the abuses the Fereldens were feeling at the hands of Mehren and the Chevalier's. They only changed their tune when it became obvious that Ferelden could win the war and they tried saving their butts because they were very close to being kicked out of Ferelden entirely. 

 

Also, another thing that the Chantry does that really annoys me, is its hypocrisy at an institutional level. They preach that the Maker will return if the Chant is sung from all corners of the world. Leliana and Wynne discuss how the Chantry believes the Chant must be sung correctly, and that's why the brothers and sisters were annoyed if Leliana got some of the words wrong. But by the same measure, they have absolutely no problem removing stanzas or canticles from the Chant of Light when they become politically inconvenient or preach something they don't believe. They won the war against the Dales (since Orlais clearly didn't,) declared elven religious beliefs to be heresy and ordered elves to live among humans and in slums, and then they removed the Canticle of Shartan, adding it to the Dissonent Verses. The Canticle of Maferath is also in the Dissonent Verses, as we see in Awakening. 

 

They also condemn blood magic by mages but condone their templars using it. That's what a phylactery is. Blood magic, in and of itself, is nothing more than using blood to power a spell or as a component within it. 

 

If the Chantry truly believed that the Chant must be sung from all corners of the world and must be sung correctly, the Dissonent Verses make it impossible for them to do so since they don't sing them or believe in them because those verses challenge their beliefs or show their hypocrisy. 

 

They claim to be a religion for all, but it seems to be a religion that favors humans, and Orlesian humans above other humans at that. Add in the hypocrisy and constant need to help Orlais when Orlais has problems in the world and they look less like a religion and more like an Orlesian front of a religion. 

 

Again, there are those who seek to do good within the Chantry, but I find that at an institutional level that they are hypocritical bigots with no tolerance for those believe differently than they. 

 

That is my impression of the Chantry. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

It is hardly the Chantry's fault that mages are cursed from birth.
Context

The notion that mages are cursed is entirely based on Chantry doctrine. Neither the Tevinters, the Rivaini, the Chasind, or the Dalish regard magic as a curse. They see it as a gift or talent like any other form of ability. Magic is only viewed as a curse because Chantry deems it so.

Context.

[Ieldra]

Kind of funny that it sparks this much criticism. Since David Gaider created Thedas and the Chantry to be a place where religion wasn't so in your face all the time. He was comparing it to D&D, where gods and goddesses were everywhere, affecting everyday life in numerous ways. He created Dragon Age to be the opposite of that. Where religion is lowkey and gods didn't have any real power or no one was sure even existed.
 
And yet it still sets people off, just for it's mere presence.

I hope I don't come across like that. Religion is a phenomenon of human life wherever you go. That it's present in one form or the other is quite natural and the fictional world would be poorer without it. The problem starts when I get the impression that the story wants me to be appreciative towards it as such, rather than appreciative of the fact that its included because it's realistic to include it in some form in a fictional world populated by humans, especially when the narratively dominant religion mirrors a specific real-life religion well enough that you can't avoid making the connection AND I have issues with both that are so very similar.

The real-world equivalent of "The Chantry does good work" is one of the standard rejoinders whenever you criticize religion in certain circles. Well, in both worlds that's no excuse for the bad things, and most notably doesn't make its ideology and mythology one bit more acceptable.

It is true that my personal dislike of most real-world religion colors my attitude towards the Chantry and Andrasteanism, but that's because they both bug me for mostly the same reasons.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The notion that mages are cursed is entirely based on Chantry doctrine. Neither the Tevinters, the Rivaini, the Chasind, or the Dalish regard magic as a curse. They see it as a gift or talent like any other form of ability. Magic is only viewed as a curse because Chantry deems it so.

Context.

 

Odd how all of them were mage dominated societies though, or so scattered that they could never form a cohesive culture to be measured.

 

Almost as if those in power wanted their traits seen as positives rather then negatives.

[SmilesJA]

I hope I don't come across like that. Religion is a phenomenon of human life wherever you go. That it's present in one form or the other is quite natural and the fictional world would be poorer without it. The problem starts when I get the impression that the story wants me to be appreciative towards it as such, rather than appreciative of the fact that its included because it's realistic to include it in some form in a fictional world populated by humans, especially when the narratively dominant religion mirrors a specific real-life religion well enough that you can't avoid making the connection AND I have issues with both that are so very similar.

The real-world equivalent of "The Chantry does good work" is one of the standard rejoinders whenever you criticize religion in certain circles. Well, in both worlds that's no excuse for the bad things, and most notably doesn't make its ideology and mythology one bit more acceptable.

It is true that my personal dislike of most real-world religion colors my attitude towards the Chantry and Andrasteanism, but that's because they both bug me for mostly the same reasons.

 

I don't think anyone is denying all the bad things done by the Chantry. It's just that there so much criticism of the Chantry to the point where they ignore some of the good things they've done.

[Vilegrim]

Not necessarily. The Chantry tolerates the dwarves. They haven't waged campaigns to convert the Avvar and Chasind. They do hate the Tevinter Chantry, but that is at least partly due to what Tevinter is thought of in the south. The Qunari have tried to convert everyone, so the Chantry taking a hard line is understandable.

Rivain is a good example that your assertion is false. The Chantry, Rivaini pantheon, and Qunari all manage to coexist.

 

 

it applies to  Elves mostly.  The Qunari are to powerful, the Rivani to locally powerful, and forcing them towards the Qunari would be idiotic, and the Avvar would be a nightmare to root out of their mountain strong holds, just because a policy isn't fully applied doesn't make it's existence any less bad.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Odd how all of them were mage dominated societies though, or so scattered that they could never form a cohesive culture to be measured.
 
Almost as if those in power wanted their traits seen as positives rather then negatives.

That's kind of what I was getting at; it's all a matter of perspective. A society in which mages have a leading role is going to look on them favourably, while a society led by non-mages is going to look on them negatively. It just depend which side of the fence you are looking at it from.

Then again, didn't Andraste say that magic was a gift from the Maker, but it was those who used it for evil that were cursed? That would suggest that it's not being a Mage that determines if they are evil or not, but what they do with their power. The Chantry, as it is wont to do, has conveniently reinterpreted Andraste's words to justify their repression of mages.

[MisterJB]

Odd how all of them were mage dominated societies though, or so scattered that they could never form a cohesive culture to be measured.

 

Almost as if those in power wanted their traits seen as positives rather then negatives.

This. All of it.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

That's kind of what I was getting at; it's all a matter of perspective. A society in which mages have a leading role is going to look on them favourably, while a society led by non-mages is going to look on them negatively. It just depend which side of the fence you are looking at it from.

Then again, didn't Andraste say that magic was a gift from the Maker, but it was those who used it for evil that were cursed? That would suggest that it's not being a Mage that determines if they are evil or not, but what they do with their power. The Chantry, as it is wont to do, has conveniently reinterpreted Andraste's words to justify their repression of mages.

 

I suppose it comes down to whether you are comfortable with power being something genetically determined, and that it doesn't come down to skill or hard work or determination but random chance that someone be allowed a chance to better society. 

 

And where you see repression, I see necessary education. Mages being, regrettably, forced to learn responsibility and hopefully a solid moral foundation before they are allowed to exploit their powers themselves. It's a gift only if you look at it selfishly, one person has been gifted the ability to lord over all those others around them for better or worse. Its a curse for all those not gifted with magic, who now find themselves at the mercy of a person who may decide that using them as human sacrifices is just an a-okay thing, or worse, decide that demons aren't so bad and that making a contract with one could only result in good things.

 

Circles, for as much as some may disregard them, do play an important role whose function does depend on it being mandatory. There are just too many advantages mages have over their fellow man to allow them to take part in politics, which is the main thing mages don't get to do, and the ramifications of an abuse of powers mages have on everyone else that they can't be treated as equals.

[Senya]

it applies to  Elves mostly.  The Qunari are to powerful, the Rivani to locally powerful, and forcing them towards the Qunari would be idiotic, and the Avvar would be a nightmare to root out of their mountain strong holds, just because a policy isn't fully applied doesn't make it's existence any less bad.

It's not like elves invaded Orlais or anything...

[Arbalest7]

Yes it does - It has reverse sexism (the catholic church gets flak because women can't have any higher office, the chantry just reverses this: men are idiots that can't have any office, they can be brothers and that's it!) for example

 

It represses minorities (elfs, dwarfs etc. - and: mages as you already stated), it influences politics (which religion should just not do, separation of church and state was developped for a reason...and in a lot of states that is still violated today and leads to such stupid decision like allowing male genital mutilation (circumcision) without any medical need (religious reasons or even aesthetic ones (!)), while punishing female genital mutilation - talk about double standards!), it threatens and kills people (seekers, templars and spies/assassins like Leliana) for religious reasons and it has it's own zealotish bullies (the templars) and it deals in drugs (Lyrium is essentially a drug...one that can be used for good by mages, but that's it, all other people are harmed by consuming it) and brainwashing (the people of Thedas against mages, mostly of course its own templars!), it destroys countries that don't comply with its wishes (the Dales!) and it preaches stuff that can't be proven (the creation of the Darkspawn by Tevinter magisters entering the black city...hell, most evidence points to the city being black already when they got there!) etc.

 

Yes, it does some good - but it's hopelessly zealous and backward in its methods and inhibits science (like the catholic church did and sometimes still does, by voting negatively in ethical commissions)

 

Note: I am a non-believer that's probably why you will never be able to convince me religion is good for anything (it's a delusion to me) - but I am normally not an "in your face" guy that belittles people for believing (I do feel sorry for them sometimes, but still, I see no reason to make fun of them) and that's why I can watch religions without much bias (I can say that the churches do some good (maybe even a lot - like in chantry does in Thedas), but that does not excuse the flaws they have and the scandals that are swept under the rug (white washes!) or just forgotten very fast (like the child-sexual-abuse in Germany and other nations, that is treated like it has never happened, just because the last scandal about it was a few years ago - they even had the audacity to shut of the abuse-hotline they created exactly because of that scandal barely a year later...) - that's why I don' like church, because no matter what good it does, as long as it has this much power, influence, money it is a danger to modern life for me, mostly because the organisation is never held accountable for what havoc is wrecked by its clergy (just like the chantry in Thedas, though they still have more influence...hell, I would not be surprised if the upper-level chantry sisters (revered mothers and above) do have sex and maybe even have families, just like the bishops/popes of old did in the catholic church!)

 

greetings LAX

ps: I want the separation of church and state inforced and religions to not be given tax-breaks anymore (!) - but I don't want religion forbidden (it just has no real place in the public sphere IMHO)

Well as you have given your perspective I guess I'll give mine. I am a Christian (and a Catholic at that) so are world views are probably worlds apart but that is irrelevant to this discussion and any further conversation about real world religions would be doubtlessly fruitless and off-topic. On the points about the Chantry you mention I'll give my thoughts:

 

1) I don't really consider that sexism. In most (but not all) examples of priesthood in both ancient and modern religions the priest performing the sacred rites in some way acts as a representative or stand in for the God. In ancient religions usually gods had priests and goddesses had priestesses. In Catholicism as you pointed out the priest's primary role is to step into the role of CHRIST during the performance of the Eucharist, and CHRIST is a man. I am not as up on my DA lore as ME but female priests may have a similar reasoning stepping into the role of Andraste.

 

2) Said minorities (particularly the elves) were persecuted before the Chantry anyways. It can be blamed for not repressing such views but not for starting them.

 

3) I don't recall the Chantry ever repressing science, no one in Thedas seems to care about science one way or another. If anything magic represses science as most scholarly work goes into that field and the most advanced societies (dwarves and qunari) are least interested in it. I imagine if magic didn't exist Dagna might work in optics or some other field. To compare real world history many intellectuals were interested in science, magic and alchemy equally, science won because science worked. If alchemy worked out for Issac Newton we would not have the Laws of Motion, a theory for Gravity and the existence of Calculus would have been stemmed. 

 

I'm personally ambivalent towards the Chantry one way or another, its trappings are superficially similar to Christianity but in doctrines and meta-physics they are very different beasts. My human characters are pro-Chantry and my non-human characters are not. So don't believe I am "defending" the Chantry because of my real-world beliefs. The Chantry is grey, everything in Thedas is. 

[Asdrubael Vect]

the Orlais Chantry like Orlais Empire for 1000 years do nothing good for Thedas and his nations

 

they build a many monopolies what turn Thedas peoples to become their stupid uneducated fanatical slaves for their teachings and profites...and all who resist them are "barbarians, heretics and monsters"

 

Orlais Chantry sucks money from peoples and especially from mages which formari and magic services makes a lot of money for Chantry so they can have Templars and have Litany's of Andralla.

 

Orlais Empire and their Orlais Chantry brings only destructions, wars and opression, degradation...and all this just for the sake and wealth of insane and pathetic Orlais high society like Florian and Megren

[LobselVith8]

It's not like elves invaded Orlais or anything...

 

If the elven accounts are true and the Dales was invaded first, then this retort doesn't really hold water.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I suppose it comes down to whether you are comfortable with power being something genetically determined, and that it doesn't come down to skill or hard work or determination but random chance that someone be allowed a chance to better society.

Given that power in almost all Thedosian societies is determined by heredity (nobility, wealth, etc.) rather than skill or determination I hardly see the difference. Besides which, the fact that power is predominantly in the hands of a few whose status is determined by their birth does not preclude others from advancing. Only the Qun actively suppresses any form of social mobility.

[Ianamus]

One of the main reasons the Chantry is so disliked is because people project their dislike of real-world religions onto it. Were it exactly the same but a non-religious organization the number of people who hate it would be reduced dramatically, I'm sure. 

 

It's one of the most charitable organizations in Thedas, and pretty much the only thing there to help the vast majority of the poor and common humans in the world. Without it things would be a lot worse off for your average human commoner in Thedas than it is at the moment. 

 

Not that It's perfect, but it gets an irrational amount of hate simply by virtue of being a religious organization (and this coming from someone who is an atheist in real life). 

[dragonflight288]

For all we know, the Elves kicked out the missionaries and some local templars at Red Crossing threw a fit and went in with a small force to show the elves who they were messing with, and the elves retaliated by attacking Red Crossing.