1391 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

One of the main reasons the Chantry is so disliked is because people project their dislike of real-world religions onto it. Were it exactly the same but a non-religious organization the number of people who hate it would be reduced dramatically, I'm sure. 

 

I don't think the complaints about the elves, the mages, or support for the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden have anything to do with real world religions.

 

Not that It's perfect, but it gets an irrational amount of hate simply by virtue of being a religious organization (and this coming from someone who is an atheist in real life). 

 

Only if you ignore the actual reasons people have specified for disliking the Chantry of Andraste.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Given that power in almost all Thedosian societies is determined by heredity (nobility, wealth, etc.) rather than skill or determination I hardly see the difference. Besides which, the fact that power is predominantly in the hands of a few whose status is determined by their birth does not preclude others from advancing. Only the Qun actively suppresses any form of social mobility.

 

You're looking too limited. Think a few centuries ahead and say popularism and democracy are concepts making their way into society. What's more likely going to be a solid argument? That because the people in power are no different, then everyone should be allowed a chance to have that power? Or that because the people in power have magic, and the people they rule over don't, the people should have a say in what the mages do? 

 

If the imperium is anything to go by, with its constant slave uprisings and suppression campaigns, I think its clear to say mages have many more advantages in keeping their power in this aristocratic fashion then non-mages do.

[Ianamus]

Given that power in almost all Thedosian societies is determined by heredity (nobility, wealth, etc.) rather than skill or determination I hardly see the difference. Besides which, the fact that power is predominantly in the hands of a few whose status is determined by their birth does not preclude others from advancing. Only the Qun actively suppresses any form of social mobility.

 

David talked about this matter quite in-depth in an interview by a fan a while ago. 

 

The real problem with mage-driven societies is that it is impossible for anybody not born a mage to rise above their station, whereas even in Orlias a servant can become influential, powerful and respected through skill and cunning (like Briala). hell, Celene even ordered them to allow an elf into the university because he was incredibly skilled in maths of all things.

 

In Tevinter the only way to rise above your station is to produce a mage child. There is simply no other way, regardless of how skilled you are. 

[LobselVith8]

For all we know, the Elves kicked out the missionaries and some local templars at Red Crossing threw a fit and went in with a small force who they were messing with, and the elves retaliated by attacking Red Crossing.

 

That's quite possible, and it could explain why the elves targeted Red Crossing specifically, if the templars who were trespassing into the Dales were stationed there.

[Daerog]

*snip*

Woo, fellow catholic!

*cough, cough* Back on topic.

Just want to say that the reason for chantry divines being female only is because of Maferath or whatever his name was. They don't view sexes as just being different, but women being purer and men being more flawed. I think it states that in WoT, so that is sexist as one is seen as better.

Could be wrong, don't have WoT on hand atm.

[Ianamus]

I don't think the complaints about the elves, the mages, or support for the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden have anything to do with real world religions.

 

 

Only if you ignore the actual reasons people have specified for disliking the Chantry of Andraste.

 

From what I've seen the vast majority of people who seriously dislike the Chantry fall into one of three groups: 

• The ravenously pro-mage fanboys/fangirls
• The ravenously  pro-dalish fanboys/fangirls
• The "ewww religion" people

And I think the latter category is the largest of the bunch. 

[LobselVith8]

You're looking too limited. Think a few centuries ahead and say popularism and democracy are concepts making their way into society. What's more likely going to be a solid argument? That because the people in power are no different, then everyone should be allowed a chance to have that power? Or that because the people in power have magic, and the people they rule over don't, the people should have a say in what the mages do?

 

Thedas isn't the real world, and the the fictional timeline of Thedas hasn't progressed at anywhere close to the pace actual history has; it's been relatively the same for about a millennia now.

 

If the imperium is anything to go by, with its constant slave uprisings and suppression campaigns, I think its clear to say mages have many more advantages in keeping their power in this aristocratic fashion then non-mages do.

 

If the Dalish alone are anything to do by, a society with free mages living alongside non-mages can have little in common with the Imperium.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Thedas isn't the real world, and the the fictional timeline of Thedas hasn't progressed at anywhere close to the pace actual history has; it's been relatively the same for about a millennia now.

 

 

If the Dalish alone are anything to do by, a society with free mages living alongside non-mages can have little in common with the Imperium.

 

Dalish have one mage, who controls the entire clan, and grooms another mage as successor in a cultist fashion, so most likely no. Ever wonder why there are never more then 2 dalish mages in a single clan? 

 

But beyond that I am surprised that you'd not get behind this deal lob. If the elves ever tried to launch a civil rights movement, then an aristocratic elite of mages will have a much easier time dealing with them then a aristocratic elite of noblemen. I'd say the chances of a movement succeeding against mages to be 0 as opposed to the slim chance of them going against non-mages.

 

But I suppose mages trump elves in terms of who deserves more freedom here.

[Mikoto8472]

David talked about this matter quite in-depth in an interview by a fan a while ago. 

 

The real problem with mage-driven societies is that it is impossible for anybody not born a mage to rise above their station, whereas even in Orlias a servant can become influential, powerful and respected through skill and cunning (like Briala). hell, Celene even ordered them to allow an elf into the university because he was incredibly skilled in maths of all things.

 

In Tevinter the only way to rise above your station is to produce a mage child. There is simply no other way, regardless of how skilled you are. 

 

And in southern nations, there is no way to rise above the station of slave to the Chantry/Circle if you're born a mage. Its just as oppressive.

[LobselVith8]

From what I've seen the vast majority of people who seriously dislike the Chantry fall into one of three groups: 

• The pro-mage fanboys/fangirls
• The pro-dalish fanboys/fangirls
• The "ewww religion" people

And I think the latter category is the largest of the bunch. 

 

You compiled a three point category, truncating people who disagree with you into caricatures, taking potshots at them in each line. Am I supposed to take this remotely seriously, or was this your poor attempt at a joke?

 

For anyone who doesn't like the Chantry of Andraste, I doubt this is going to persuade them to fall in line with your point of view.

[Arbalest7]

Woo, fellow catholic!

*cough, cough* Back on topic.

Just want to say that the reason for chantry divines being female only is because of Maferath or whatever his name was. They don't view sexes as just being different, but women being purer and men being more flawed. I think it states that in WoT, so that is sexist as one is seen as better.

Could be wrong, don't have WoT on hand atm.

Thanks...as stated earlier I am more of a ME fan then DA fan so thanks for the correction. In that case the Chantry can be charged with sexism. Also likewise a pleasure to meet another Catholic.

[LobselVith8]

Dalish have one mage, who controls the entire clan, and grooms another mage as successor in a cultist fashion, so most likely no. Ever wonder why there are never more then 2 dalish mages in a single clan? 

 

You do realize there are more than two mages within a clan, right? Hence why Elora is within Zathrian's clan, and why Velanna names a likely successor to her position as First from within her own clan. Aneirin was welcomed into Zathrian's clan, while an elven Circle mage found sanctuary within Ariane's clan.

 

Also, the hahren also have authority in the clan, as the hahren forbid the relationship between Mahariel's parents, one of whom was a Keeper.

 

But beyond that I am surprised that you'd not get behind this deal lob. If the elves ever tried to launch a civil rights movement, then an aristocratic elite of mages will have a much easier time dealing with them then a aristocratic elite of noblemen. I'd say the chances of a movement succeeding against mages to be 0 as opposed to the slim chance of them going against non-mages.

 

I'm more in line with an independent elven kingdom where the elves can govern themselves (which would include the Dalish), but this is getting off-topic to the actual discussion of the Chantry of Andraste.

 

But I suppose mages trump elves in terms of who deserves more freedom here.

 

 

Much like the rest of your post, you would be incorrect. No one deserves to be forced into a position of servitude - mages or elves. Glad I could clear it up for you.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

And in southern nations, there is no way to rise above the station of slave to the Chantry/Circle if you're born a mage. Its just as oppressive.

 

The scale of the problem says otherwise.

 

Mages are "oppressed" because of legitimate reason, they have access to abilities due to circumstances at birth that make them much more powerful than anyone else.

 

Normal people in mage societies are oppressed simply for not being born lucky enough to share their gift.

 

One affects hundreds of people, the other affects millions.

 

It's like saying gun owners are oppressed because they can't bring their firearms into public spaces in most places, and then comparing it equivocally to the struggle of black people for equality. 

[MisterJB]

And in southern nations, there is no way to rise above the station of slave to the Chantry/Circle if you're born a mage. Its just as oppressive.

You live in an isolated society and suddenly you're a slave?

I wish people would stop using trigger words in place of arguments.

[wcholcombe]

Ok Dragon, lets play:

I haven't read every page, and I'm not a big fan of the Chantry in general, but here's how I see it. 

 

There are those in the Chantry who do good. They go out of their way to try and help others. But the Chantry as a whole does have racist attitudes and tendencies. I think Gaider or Laidlaw talked about how the Chantry simply will not publicly acknowledge the elves as being equal in the sight of the Maker as humans, and by its very implication of that statement, simply see elves as inferior to humans. 

 

It was the Chantry that declared that all elves had to live in alienages. 

 

The Qunari may be far more ruthless, but they have something that the Chantry does not. Fair treatment of all races. And by that, I mean that if you convert, they will not treat you differently based on your race. You won't be forced to live in an alienage, you won't have to worry about racism. What you do have to worry about is fulfilling your role in the Qun. And they give you your role based on your merit and not your race. Unless you're a mage.  They also squash personal freedom, tell you what you will be doing for the rest of your life, and either forcibly convert you or put you to death.  If you are a mage they cut out your tongue and bind you.

 

Another thing that the Chantry does that really aggravates me is their favoritism of Orlais. They were founded by Drakon I and helped him build the nation of Orlais through a series of Exalted Marches. They side with Orlais in every major conflict, and many minor ones. Heck, the Divine tried to order her Templars to interfere with Kirkwall's trade because the Viscount at the time was raising tariffs on Orlesian goods. This had nothing to do with the Chantry and everything to do with Orlesian interests. There isn't anything to deny here, but what exactly is wrong with the chantry looking out for its best interests?  They are based in Orlais, Drakon was very influential in helping to build the chantry up, it is there power base, what exactly is the problem here?  It would be like expecting the Church of England to side with France against England.  As for the exalted marches we have 1. Against the dales that was called after the dalish sacked Val Royeux, the seat of the chantry. 2. Against Starkhaven, is debatable. We really don't know the entirety of why an exalted march was called. It is the one that most fits with your belief, but it isn't like Orlais ruled starkhaven, all information says that Starkhaven was made independent. 3. Imperial Chantry-this is entirely a religious matter. Right or wrong the chantry of the imperium had broken away and the Orlesian Chantry was trying to return them to their control as opposed to their percieved blasphemy.  They Qunari-again religious survival.  The Qun has no room for the chantry and vice versa.

 

Also, in the Stolen Throne, we see that the Chantry was aiding Orlais and even endorsed to a certain degree the abuses the Fereldens were feeling at the hands of Mehren and the Chevalier's. They only changed their tune when it became obvious that Ferelden could win the war and they tried saving their butts because they were very close to being kicked out of Ferelden entirely. They supported the legitimate government of the area. Orlais had conquered Ferelden. The war was over.  You had a rebel group, but that is hardly a legitimate government.  You also had chantry priests who served in the rebellion, Mother Ailis.

 

Also, another thing that the Chantry does that really annoys me, is its hypocrisy at an institutional level. They preach that the Maker will return if the Chant is sung from all corners of the world. Leliana and Wynne discuss how the Chantry believes the Chant must be sung correctly, and that's why the brothers and sisters were annoyed if Leliana got some of the words wrong. But by the same measure, they have absolutely no problem removing stanzas or canticles from the Chant of Light when they become politically inconvenient or preach something they don't believe. They won the war against the Dales (since Orlais clearly didn't,) declared elven religious beliefs to be heresy and ordered elves to live among humans and in slums, and then they removed the Canticle of Shartan, adding it to the Dissonent Verses. The Canticle of Maferath is also in the Dissonent Verses, as we see in Awakening. To the victor go the spoils.

 

They also condemn blood magic by mages but condone their templars using it. That's what a phylactery is. Blood magic, in and of itself, is nothing more than using blood to power a spell or as a component within it. How exactly phylacteries work I have no clue, but I also don't consider the on the same plane as blood magic. Phylacteries are inert and don't actually affect anyone, they just allow you to be tracked.

 

If the Chantry truly believed that the Chant must be sung from all corners of the world and must be sung correctly, the Dissonent Verses make it impossible for them to do so since they don't sing them or believe in them because those verses challenge their beliefs or show their hypocrisy.  Well, a divine is divine representation of Andraste on earth, so therefore if they choose to remove verses from the chant they are acting in the will of Andraste and know better then us mere mortals.

 

They claim to be a religion for all, but it seems to be a religion that favors humans, and Orlesian humans above other humans at that. Add in the hypocrisy and constant need to help Orlais when Orlais has problems in the world and they look less like a religion and more like an Orlesian front of a religion. Already addressed the orlais part. I would agree that the Chantry sees non humans as being further removed from the maker, but they are open to all races.  We know there are elven templars and mothers according to gaider, they just aren't common, and city elves are mostly chantry as well, so it isn't like they are barred.

 

Again, there are those who seek to do good within the Chantry, but I find that at an institutional level that they are hypocritical bigots with no tolerance for those believe differently than they. 

 

That is my impression of the Chantry. I won't really argue this, but as I have said previously, all institutions have this same fault and failing. Seriously from the Qunari to the Imperium to Ferelden to wherever and whatever races you wish to consider. They all suffer from the same. It is no more hypocritical then to hold up the Dalish or the Dwarves or the Qunari as superior to the Chantry when they all have their faliings and hypocrisies.  Is the Chantry perfect, no, but it isn't the root of all evil in Thedas either.   I hope that DAI shows more of the failings and problems of other cultures and groups.

[General TSAR]

Indeed they do, indeed they do.

 

But since they are a religion, that irks people. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

You live in an isolated society and suddenly you're a slave?

I wish people would stop using trigger words in place of arguments.

Well pro-mages they will keep calling circles are slavery even despite devs said it isn't because it is their only line of defense.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

You live in an isolated society and suddenly you're a slave?

I wish people would stop using trigger words in place of arguments.

 

When people use slave as a definition for every plight they face, as well as oppression, and subjugation, to describe their warranted isolation, those who are truly oppressed, subjugated, and enslaved are ignored. Their struggles diminished in value, their stories made secondary to the whines of a needy few.

 

Tevinter slaves would probably get pissed at hearing how anders talk, trying to equate himself to the hardship they have to live at the hands of his kind.

[Asdrubael Vect]

From what I've seen the vast majority of people who seriously dislike the Chantry fall into one of three groups: 

• The pro-mage fanboys/fangirls
• The pro-dalish fanboys/fangirls
• The "ewww religion" people

And I think the latter category is the largest of the bunch. 

ok i can be considerate to be a pro mages/elves(actually i care about all non-shems) and yeah i am not a person who believe in some old bullshit what is mostly a copy of another old bullshit what ancient people believe from ancient times because they do not know anything about their world and burn heretics who try to do this.

 

but i would say that the religion is not the point why people do not like Orlais Empire and their Orlais Chantry who create and support dark ages period in Thedas

 

if we would talk about Olrais Chantry religion so this is bullshit by the Thedas universe and majority of Thedas do not believe in this. but i think you do not have many who hates Imperium Chantry or Nevarran or else who have different and older versions of Chant of Light what Orlais want to destroy

 

but this ilusions what Orlais Cahntry FORCE to whole Thedas does not change the main sh*t what Olrais Chantry and Orlais Empire do

 

Orlais Chantry as Qunari brings only destruction and degradation of Thedas peoples with their "holy wars", burning "heretics", do stupid monopolys for magic servises and all  info-knoledges, making "not a slaves who is slaves"(elves in alienages and Chantry Circles)

 

and treat to Thedas safety by their anti mages program what is hypocrisy and Chantry and Templars know about it, they organisation cant exist without mages who would work for them

 

if Qunari does not do this for money and power, just for the lunatic idea of Tamasran...Olrias do this not only for idea of their holy superiority but for money and power and they do not care about others and do not even do something good for themselfs just spend all resources for luxury sh*t

 

Thedas does not have so many problems for 8500 years, and when Orlais and Orlais Chantry was created with their damn Templars Thedas have only worst and worst and now the sh*t is go so far that demons start to invade

 

the whole Thedas would celebrate when Orlais Empire and their Chanry and Templars would fall

[Killdren88]

They do. feed the sick and poor and such. Doesn't excuse their more questionable activities.

[wcholcombe]

That's quite possible, and it could explain why the elves targeted Red Crossing specifically, if the templars who were trespassing into the Dales were stationed there.

It could also be that the dalish killed missionaries seeking to spread the chant to other peoples and the templars were a response. Or it could be that the templars killed a group of innocent elves for no reason then they were elves. Or it could be that at some meeting an elf or a templar drew a sword to kill a poisonous snake and that led to war and killing. In truth we really don't know and we probably won't for a very long time and the only ideas most will put forth are the ones that support their personal beliefs and prejudices.

[Parkimus]

Indeed they do, indeed they do.

 

But since they are a religion, that irks people. 

 

This is certainly true of some people, but others in this thread have given what I think are valid reasons for why they don't like the Chantry/how the Chantry handles matters beyond "Religion? Boo!"

[X Equestris]

it applies to  Elves mostly.  The Qunari are to powerful, the Rivani to locally powerful, and forcing them towards the Qunari would be idiotic, and the Avvar would be a nightmare to root out of their mountain strong holds, just because a policy isn't fully applied doesn't make it's existence any less bad.

The policy isn't fully applied because the policy doesn't exist. The elves who became city elves chose to convert. The ones who didn't became Dalish. It's simple. The Chantry didn't orchestrate the annihilation of the Dales: Orlais did.

[LobselVith8]

You live in an isolated society and suddenly you're a slave?
I wish people would stop using trigger words in place of arguments.

Maybe Mikoto was addressing how some people in Thedas see it, since the word is used by some characters who condemn the Chantry.

[wcholcombe]

And in southern nations, there is no way to rise above the station of slave to the Chantry/Circle if you're born a mage. Its just as oppressive.

Madame Le Fere would disagree with you.  As would Wilhelm.  As would Rhys who mentions repeatedly about how much better life was in the circle before the uprising in Kirkwall.