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[LobselVith8]

It could also be that the dalish killed missionaries seeking to spread the chant to other peoples and the templars were a response.

Since the missionaries are only mentioned by the elven accounts, I would imagine the Chantry would've mentioned it in their historical account if this was the case.

Or it could be that the templars killed a group of innocent elves for no reason then they were elves. Or it could be that at some meeting an elf or a templar drew a sword to kill a poisonous snake and that led to war and killing. In truth we really don't know and we probably won't for a very long time and the only ideas most will put forth are the ones that support their personal beliefs and prejudices.

You seem to have ignored that I specifically addressed that we don't know the truth, as there are conflicting historical accounts. Nor did I ever claim that the elven historical accounts by the Dalish and City elves were the correct ones.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Maybe Mikoto was addressing how some people in Thedas see it, since the word is used by some characters who condemn the Chantry.

 

Some people in thedas see slavery as their right. Do we really need to take every perspective into account in this argument, rather then talking facts?

[LobselVith8]

Madame Le Fere would disagree with you. As would Wilhelm. As would Rhys who mentions repeatedly about how much better life was in the circle before the uprising in Kirkwall.

Wilhelm's life with his wife and child would suggest he had a royal boon, since the latter is illegal for Circle mages.

[wcholcombe]

Since the missionaries are only mentioned by the elven accounts, I would imagine the Chantry would've mentioned it in their historical account if this was the case.


You seem to have ignored that I specifically addressed that we don't know the truth, as there are conflicting historical accounts. Nor did I ever claim that the elven historical accounts by the Dalish and City elves were the correct ones.

No, I get that Lob, I was just trying to make a point for why I consider the Fall of the Dales a poor point to base an argument or form and opinion upon.  We don't have a clue what truly started that conflict. It could have been a deliberate act by one side or the other or a total missunderstanding. It could be those who use it to view the chantry as evil are correct. It could also be that just like we learned the elves of Arlathan weren't a bunch of sweet magical hippies, the elves in the Dales may not have been such good and peaceful neighbors to have. The point is we don't know and I just find it a poor data point to base and argument for or against one side.  I was meaning it to be a continuance of the idea ya'll were putting forward about not really knowing, it wasn't an argument.

[LobselVith8]

Some people in thedas see slavery as their right. Do we really need to take every perspective into account in this argument, rather then talking facts?

I saw some people addressing why they specifically dislike the Chantry; that's not an argument. Some people may view the Circle as slavery, as fictional characters like the historical Aldenon and others have (and I've read some compare it to slavery outside the United States in past discussions). I think the point is that most people don't simply dislike the Chantry because it's a religious organization (since this is a Chantry thread, and not a forum for debating the morality of the Circle).

Frankly, that's what I'm trying to say - there are reasons why some people don't like the Chantry; whether or not we agree on those views is a different matter entirely.

[wcholcombe]

Wilhelm's life with his wife and child would suggest he had a royal boon, since the latter is illegal for Circle mages.

That is an assumption, we don't actually know.  We know he was running around in Stolen Throne and no one came calling with a phylactery to track down the rebel army did they?  Nor did templars ever show up to drag him back to the circle?  Also, considering the chantry is able to tell Allistair or whomever to go soak there head on the subject of the circle being independent, I don't think it is as simple as Maric saying he could live outside the circle.  Heck their were mages ordering around templars in stolen throne when they came after Maric.  My only argument on this is that I don't think it is so black and white about life in the circle.

[MisterJB]

Maybe Mikoto was addressing how some people in Thedas see it, since the word is used by some characters who condemn the Chantry.

And those who see it that way are also either sheltered ones who have no notion of what slavery actually entails or are opportunists using trigger words to evoke an emotional response rather than logic based arguments.

Just because multiple people hold an innacurate opinion, that doesn't suddenly make it correct. Otherwise, there would be life on Mars and the Moon Landing didn't really happen.

[LobselVith8]

That is an assumption, we don't actually know. We know he was running around in Stolen Throne and no one came calling with a phylactery to track down the rebel army did they? Nor did templars ever show up to drag him back to the circle? Also, considering the chantry is able to tell Allistair or whomever to go soak there head on the subject of the circle being independent, I don't think it is as simple as Maric saying he could live outside the circle. Heck their were mages ordering around templars in stolen throne when they came after Maric. My only argument on this is that I don't think it is so black and white about life in the circle.

It's certainly a possibility; my intention wasn't to state it as though it's fact. However, one mage does not equal the freedom of an entire Circle; a royal boon can disregard Chantry law and give a mage a noble title, after all.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

And those who see it that way are also either sheltered ones who have no notion of what slavery actually entails or are opportunists using trigger words to evoke an emotional response rather than logic based arguments.

Just because multiple people hold an innacurate opinion, that doesn't suddenly make it correct. Otherwise, there would be life on Mars and the Moon Landing didn't really happen.

 

Moon landing didn't happen Shemlen. The dalish see through your tricks to claim the moon for human kind like ya do everythang else.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's certainly a possibility; my intention wasn't to state it as though it's fact. However, one mage does not equal the freedom of an entire Circle; a royal boon can disregard Chantry law and give a mage a noble title, after all.

 

Until Bioware decides to retcon it that is.

[LobselVith8]

Moon landing didn't happen Shemlen. The dalish see through your tricks to claim the moon for human kind like ya do everythang else.

I take it any constructive discussion that might happen in this thread is going out the window right now.

[Asdrubael Vect]

It's certainly a possibility; my intention wasn't to state it as though it's fact. However, one mage does not equal the freedom of an entire Circle; a royal boon can disregard Chantry law and give a mage a noble title, after all.

14 Chantry Сircles, not talknig about mages rights-no rights and fredoms at all...so this is not a matter in Circle they or not, they are noone by Orlais Chantry laws and they do force people to hate them

 

and "holy" Templars with their absolute rights what was given to them by Orlais like Chivaliers opress not just mages but a non-humans, "heretics" and especially peasants and even nobles

[Tevinter Rose]

I dislike the Chantry because it addicts its Templars to Lyrium, locks up mages and bans blood magic while using it (phylacteries), and also forces elves to live in alienages while banning their religion. They do do some positive things but it doesn't outweigh the negatives for me. I hope the Chantry eventually reforms on its own but with the Inquisition I hope I can let it slide into irrelevance. 

[TTTX]

Madame Le Fere would disagree with you.  As would Wilhelm.  As would Rhys who mentions repeatedly about how much better life was in the circle before the uprising in Kirkwall.

I think that depends on the circle and which people are in charge as Meredith showed in DA2 as she made the circle life at least very difficult and not to mention the rest of Kirkwall.

[Sasie]

The problem as I see it is that there are many other organisations that suppress people so even removing the Chantry would just let some other group take over, be they mages or noble. However there is no other organisation that does the good the Chantry provides. While we all seen how corrupt some sisters are in the larger cities and how the Chantry at the top levels play politics we also seen them in small villages like Lothering. 

When the blight happend the Chantry was the only ones who stayed to take care and defend the common people. Their lord ran away for example and the villagers explain that the Chantry always done charity and even payed people to help out their naibours through the chantry board. I can't remember one single person in the game who went around helping the poor that wasn't associated with the Chantry. Most people don't give charity or help beggars for no reason and organised groups actually help here.

They might be acting out of faith but Chantry people usually do want to improve life for those at the bottom. The dwarf for example tried to help the castless. I don't like everything the Chantry does but they are the only ones who shown a desire to improve life for the poor and help out the common man. I'm not religious myself but there is something about religion that usually do make them go hand in hand with charity and Thedas doesn't have goverments that protect their citizens like we do.

Maybe people should think about overthrowing the monarchy and nobles before going after the Chantry. If the Chantry went away there would be no check and balance system at all to prevent nobles who step out of line.

[Master Warder Z_]

I dislike the Chantry because it addicts its Templars to Lyrium

 

They can leave before they take final vows and even after it, they take lyrium into themselves as an act of personal sacrifice and i personally think people demean it with this whole "the chantry addicts their soldiers to drugs without consent garbage".

 

 

 locks up mages

 

For both their and the common peoples good

 

 

 and bans blood magic while using it (phylacteries)

 

The Chantry's "blood magic" doesn't involve dealing with demons to gain personal power.

 

 

 and also forces elves to live in alienages while banning their religion.

 

They settled a massive amount of a population all across Thedas and assimilated them into the victors culture, Would you have preferred the elves all die? To live in the remnants of their sordid little kingdom and just fade into history entirely?

 

The Chantry did an act that is beyond nearly anything in reality when we compare it to migrations of people; They took in more people then the population of the Czech Republic, ( circa 1479) gave them culture, homes and identity and you fault them.

 

 

They do do some positive things

 

They do immense positive things, like allowing elves to exist into the dragon age.

 

 

but it doesn't outweigh the negatives for me. 

 

It does for me, it kept a race in existence.

 

Admittedly its a race that is going to die out eventually anyway...but still, its impressive.

[Mikoto8472]

I meant what I said. Slavery.

 

The mages don't have any rights. They have their babies stolen by the Chantry at birth. They're locked up all their lives, guarded by drug addict zealots. They can be raped, beaten or made Traquil illegally with no repercussion. There is nobody they can report abuses to. They cannot gain or inherit any titles, own land or businesses. marriage is done rarely with special permission.

 

mages are often called upon to serve nobles as healers, or "perform" at parties, and are called upon in times of war as living weapons. Are they paid for ay of this? Can they buy their own clothes or tools or food or equipment as soldiers? They can't. So if a group of people have no rights, are locked up against their will having done no crime and forced to work for free that is slavery.

 

And yes I know the Tranquil enchant and such for money but they are no longer mages. Yet they are still confined to serve the Circle/Chantry.

 

Of course those are not the only reasons I dislike the Chantry. I could say a lot about its treatment of elves and other non-humans too.

[SmilesJA]

 

 

 

 

They do immense positive things, like allowing elves to exist into the dragon age.

 

 

 

 

 

While stripping them from their rights and forcing them to live in poverty?

[Master Warder Z_]

While stripping them from their rights and forcing them to live in poverty?

 

Would you prefer the race be corpses?

 

They ruined the equality bit, they were given a kingdom a nation, a land of their own.

 

Their leader fought and died alongside Andraste and they honored him and his fellows for it after the war.

 

They turned their back on their God, their people and their culture, not the other way around, Shartan followed the Maker.

 

Give this notion a bit of thought before outright dismissing it.

 

How different do you think Thedas would be if the Dales had been Andrastian like Shartan?

[Tevinter Rose]

They can leave before they take final vows and even after it, they take lyrium into themselves as an act of personal sacrifice and i personally think people demean it with this whole "the chantry addicts their soldiers to drugs without consent garbage".

 

 

 

For both their and the common peoples good

 

 

 

The Chantry's "blood magic" doesn't involve dealing with demons to gain personal power.

 

 

 

They settled a massive amount of a population all across Thedas and assimilated them into the victors culture, Would you have preferred the elves all die? To live in the remnants of their sordid little kingdom and just fade into history entirely?

 

The Chantry did an act that is beyond nearly anything in reality when we compare it to migrations of people; They took in more people then the population of the Czech Republic, ( circa 1479) gave them culture, homes and identity and you fault them.

 

 

 

They do immense positive things, like allowing elves to exist into the dragon age.

 

 

 

It does for me, it kept a race in existence.

 

Admittedly its a race that is going to die out eventually anyway...but still, its impressive.

 

A templar can leave before taking their last vow but that won't erase the irrevocable damage lyrium has already done to their body. As far as I know, there is no lyrium detox/cleanse in Thedas.

I don't agree that locking up mages is a great idea, it clearly doesn't work because there's a mage/templar war.

To me what the Chantry is doing concerning elves is instead of direct genocide they are facilitating a cultural genocide, because that's easier and requires less blood. I'm not really seeing the positives imho.

[X Equestris]

While stripping them from their rights and forcing them to live in poverty?

Elves' upward mobility is limited by plain old human racism, nothing more. The chantry has nothing to do with it.

[AlexiaRevan]

I think first peoples stop with the 'Those who hate the chantry do it cose they hate religion in real life' . I don't . I hate anyone who decided that they can lock someone else for forever just cose it's scary and may do something bad . 

Everyone in Thedas is capable of doing horribles things . I don't understand why would the mage be a greater threath then say Castillon for exemple ? 

Give any normal man ressources and an army to back him up and he will tear your reality just like a blood mage will tear the veil . Peoples will DIE! No matter how it was done . 

[wcholcombe]

I meant what I said. Slavery.

 

The mages don't have any rights. They have their babies stolen by the Chantry at birth. They're locked up all their lives, guarded by drug addict zealots. They can be raped, beaten or made Traquil illegally with no repercussion. There is nobody they can report abuses to. They cannot gain or inherit any titles, own land or businesses. marriage is done rarely with special permission.

 

mages are often called upon to serve nobles as healers, or "perform" at parties, and are called upon in times of war as living weapons. Are they paid for ay of this? Can they buy their own clothes or tools or food or equipment as soldiers? They can't. So if a group of people have no rights, are locked up against their will having done no crime and forced to work for free that is slavery.

 

And yes I know the Tranquil enchant and such for money but they are no longer mages. Yet they are still confined to serve the Circle/Chantry.

 

Of course those are not the only reasons I dislike the Chantry. I could say a lot about its treatment of elves and other non-humans too.

I see someone has a very limited view. Actually there are repercusions to many of those treatments and acts, just because they weren't demonstrated in the cluster that was Kirkwall doesn't make it common practice.  Mages also have a standard of living far above the average life of peasants in Thedas.  They can certainly buy their own Clothes if Vivienne is any indication and Rhys makes mention in Asunder about previously being able to leave the tower to go shopping in the city whenever they wanted.  Also, you can't say they work for free when they are housed, fed, educated, taken on retreats(the 1st enchanter in DAO mentions taking his enchanters on a retreat).  Also, do recall that the situation in the last game and several books is not typical. In The Calling, the 1st enchanter at Kenloch hold and a few supporters are able to leave the tower at whim and working with a certain individual almost turn the entire population of thedas into darkspawn without the templars being any the wiser. 

[The Flying Grey Warden]

I take it any constructive discussion that might happen in this thread is going out the window right now.

 

This thread intersects religion, politics, mages, elves, and sociology. 

 

I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

[wcholcombe]

A templar can leave before taking their last vow but that won't erase the irrevocable damage lyrium has already done to their body. As far as I know, there is no lyrium detox/cleanse in Thedas.

I don't agree that locking up mages is a great idea, it clearly doesn't work because there's a mage/templar war.

To me what the Chantry is doing concerning elves is instead of direct genocide they are facilitating a cultural genocide, because that's easier and requires less blood. I'm not really seeing the positives imho.

You don't take lyrium until final vows. Also, it takes years of use for lyrium to affect you.  Also, they are fully aware of the sacrifice they are making. The argument that the chantry takes advantage of them is like arguing that professional football players are taken advantage of because they knowingly play a sport that can leave them severely injured.