You don't take lyrium until final vows. Also, it takes years of use for lyrium to affect you. Also, they are fully aware of the sacrifice they are making. The argument that the chantry takes advantage of them is like arguing that professional football players are taken advantage of because they knowingly play a sport that can leave them severely injured.
I know the templars are fully aware of the risk, I think thats what makes it so tragic to me.
I know the templars are fully aware of the risk, I think thats what makes it so tragic to me.
It's as tragic as soldiers using depleted uranium shells and getting cancer, horrible but something that is expected.
It's a willing sacrifice for the protection of people.
Templars need Lyrium and the Templars need to exist.
They settled a massive amount of a population all across Thedas and assimilated them into the victors culture, Would you have preferred the elves all die? To live in the remnants of their sordid little kingdom and just fade into history entirely?
The Chantry did an act that is beyond nearly anything in reality when we compare it to migrations of people; They took in more people then the population of the Czech Republic, ( circa 1479) gave them culture, homes and identity and you fault them.
It's as tragic as soldiers using depleted uranium shells and getting cancer, horrible but something that is expected.
It's a willing sacrifice for the protection of people.
Templars need Lyrium and the Templars need to exist.
I never said templars don't need to exist. I think the Chantry and Templars need to be reformed.
I know the templars are fully aware of the risk, I think thats what makes it so tragic to me.
Indeed. Thankfully there are men and women brave enough to risk becoming "addled" so that they can protect the world from maleficarum and abominations. Until the people of Thedas invent some kind of alternative to dealing with magical threats, lyrium-induced dementia is a necessary but unfortunate side effect of maintaining peace.
and the elves should be grateful?!
Considering they only exist at all because of Chantry Mercy?
Yes.
I meant what I said. Slavery.
The mages don't have any rights. They have their babies stolen by the Chantry at birth. They're locked up all their lives, guarded by drug addict zealots. They can be raped, beaten or made Traquil illegally with no repercussion. There is nobody they can report abuses to. They cannot gain or inherit any titles, own land or businesses. marriage is done rarely with special permission.
mages are often called upon to serve nobles as healers, or "perform" at parties, and are called upon in times of war as living weapons. Are they paid for ay of this? Can they buy their own clothes or tools or food or equipment as soldiers? They can't. So if a group of people have no rights, are locked up against their will having done no crime and forced to work for free that is slavery.
And yes I know the Tranquil enchant and such for money but they are no longer mages. Yet they are still confined to serve the Circle/Chantry.
Of course those are not the only reasons I dislike the Chantry. I could say a lot about its treatment of elves and other non-humans too.
According to lore Templars aren't allow to misuse their power and that's why the Seekers exist to take down the corrupt Templars.
A templar can leave before taking their last vow but that won't erase the irrevocable damage lyrium has already done to their body. As far as I know, there is no lyrium detox/cleanse in Thedas.
I don't agree that locking up mages is a great idea, it clearly doesn't work because there's a mage/templar war.
To me what the Chantry is doing concerning elves is instead of direct genocide they are facilitating a cultural genocide, because that's easier and requires less blood. I'm not really seeing the positives imho.
The circle of magic did last for about a 1000 years that's not exactly a failure.
I see someone has a very limited view. Actually there are repercusions to many of those treatments and acts, just because they weren't demonstrated in the cluster that was Kirkwall doesn't make it common practice. Mages also have a standard of living far above the average life of peasants in Thedas. They can certainly buy their own Clothes if Vivienne is any indication and Rhys makes mention in Asunder about previously being able to leave the tower to go shopping in the city whenever they wanted. Also, you can't say they work for free when they are housed, fed, educated, taken on retreats(the 1st enchanter in DAO mentions taking his enchanters on a retreat). Also, do recall that the situation in the last game and several books is not typical. In The Calling, the 1st enchanter at Kenloch hold and a few supporters are able to leave the tower at whim and working with a certain individual almost turn the entire population of thedas into darkspawn without the templars being any the wiser.
It all comes down to who is in charge.
Would you prefer the race be corpses?
They ruined the equality bit, they were given a kingdom a nation, a land of their own.
Their leader fought and died alongside Andraste and they honored him and his fellows for it after the war.
They turned their back on their God, their people and their culture, not the other way around, Shartan followed the Maker.
Give this notion a bit of thought before outright dismissing it.
How different do you think Thedas would be if the Dales had been Andrastian like Shartan?
Shartan followed Andraste in the hopes of getting a home for his people, not because of the Maker.
Would you prefer the race be corpses?
They ruined the equality bit, they were given a kingdom a nation, a land of their own.
Their leader fought and died alongside Andraste and they honored him and his fellows for it after the war.
They turned their back on their God, their people and their culture, not the other way around, Shartan followed the Maker.
Give this notion a bit of thought before outright dismissing it.
How different do you think Thedas would be if the Dales had been Andrastian like Shartan?
Shartan and the elves fought alongside Andraste and the humans against a common foe, and Shartan wanted his people to have a home of their own; there's no indication that he wanted them to follow the Andrastian faith.
I see someone has a very limited view. Actually there are repercusions to many of those treatments and acts, just because they weren't demonstrated in the cluster that was Kirkwall doesn't make it common practice. Mages also have a standard of living far above the average life of peasants in Thedas. They can certainly buy their own Clothes if Vivienne is any indication and Rhys makes mention in Asunder about previously being able to leave the tower to go shopping in the city whenever they wanted. Also, you can't say they work for free when they are housed, fed, educated, taken on retreats(the 1st enchanter in DAO mentions taking his enchanters on a retreat). Also, do recall that the situation in the last game and several books is not typical. In The Calling, the 1st enchanter at Kenloch hold and a few supporters are able to leave the tower at whim and working with a certain individual almost turn the entire population of thedas into darkspawn without the templars being any the wiser.
Food, educated, sheltered ad whatnot is not paid by any stretch of the imagination. The Chantry took away the mages' ability to do these things themselves therefore providing them automatically is the very least the Chantry should do. By taking away the prisoners ability to look after themselves the Chantry must assume responsibility for the care and wellbeing for its prisoners. Its why real life prisons have to provide free medical care for the inmates because its the state/prison's responsibility to do so. It's not pay. Its not gold that mages can sped on what they want.
Ad most of the people you cite as being able to leave are mages of rank ad must obtain special permission to leave and they must return to captivity at the allotted time or be hunted down. Privileges aren't freedom or given rights.
Considering they only exist at all because of Chantry Mercy?
Yes.
Well, technically the elves could have been exterminated long ago, but still... I don't know if gratitude is the right word here. Tbh I find it strange that the elves haven't made some attempt to leave the human nations rather than hang around in the slums or wilderness for 700 years or so. I still wouldn't say that a conquered people should be grateful that they weren't completely wiped out after losing a series of wars... the concept of "war crimes" may or may not exist in Thedas, but that seems a bit too extreme. I have a hard time believing that total annihilation crossed too many people's minds after the Dales were conquered.
Shartan and the elves fought alongside Andraste and the humans against a common foe, and Shartan wanted his people to have a home of their own; there's no indication that he wanted them to follow the Andrastian faith.
There is no indication he didn't though and i'd be surprised if he didn't personally, and his dream was fulfilled, they received a home.
What came of it afterwards was on them.
Turning against Shartan as they did to me is betraying what actually got them there in the first place.
Pity the Chantry didn't spin it that way, it would have been brilliant, they spat in the face of the elf who fought alongside Andraste.
Shartan followed Andraste in the hopes of getting a home for his people, not because of the Maker.
How are we to know that?
What we DO know however is that Shartan believed in the faith of the Maker, he converted.
Would you prefer the race be corpses?
They ruined the equality bit, they were given a kingdom a nation, a land of their own.
Their leader fought and died alongside Andraste and they honored him and his fellows for it after the war.
They turned their back on their God, their people and their culture, not the other way around, Shartan followed the Maker.
Give this notion a bit of thought before outright dismissing it.
How different do you think Thedas would be if the Dales had been Andrastian like Shartan?
There is no indication he didn't though and i'd be surprised if he didn't personally, and his dream was fulfilled, they received a home.
What came of it afterwards was on them.
Turning against Shartan as they did to me is betraying what actually got them there in the first place.
Pity the Chantry didn't spin it that way, it would have been brilliant, they spat in the face of the elf who fought alongside Andraste.
It isn't a betrayal of Shartan for the elves to follow their own faith; a multitude of elves fought for the dream of this homeland, and even gave their lives for it. There are elves who died simply making the journey to the Dales, as described in "The Long Walk". Neither Andraste nor Shartan would have had any moral right to forcibly convert the elves to the Andrastian faith.
It's as tragic as soldiers using depleted uranium shells and getting cancer, horrible but something that is expected.
It's a willing sacrifice for the protection of people.
Templars need Lyrium and the Templars need to exist.
An addict cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Templars need to exist bu this lyrium addiction make the current templars completely unsuited for the task or even any task.
An addict cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Templars need to exist bu this lyrium addiction make the current templars completely unsuited for the task or even any task.
If that were the case the Circle system would have fallen apart no less than 800 years ago.
It isn't a betrayal of Shartan for the elves to follow their own faith
What is their own Faith?
By this point you can reasonably assert the slate had been wiped clean, they had been under the yoke of the Imperium for nearly a thousand years now.
Whom is to say Shartan didn't intend for the religion of his people to be that of his own adopted God, in much the way Drakon wished for the entirety of what would eventually be Orlais to be Andrastian.
Beyond that, i doubt we will agree on this.
I think the Templars need to be a secular organization.
There is no evidence (I checked the Wiki and The World of Thedas) that Shartan worshiped the Maker. He allied with Andraste because they had a common enemy in the Tevinter Imperium and he became one of her close advisors. The World of Thedas states that the elves, upon settling in the Dales immediately began trying to recover the culture they had lost under the Tevinters, but humans would not leave them in peace. Until the Dales were destroyed and the elves driven into alienages, they had been continuously trying to preserve and restore what they could of the Elvhen culture. They were never Andrastian's until they were forced to at sword point.
World of Thedas, page 43:
"At the Battle of Valarian Fields, the elven slave Shartan takes Maferath's side and leads other elves in the fight against their Tevinter opressors. He later converts and is made a disciple, only to have his writings suppressed following the Exalted March of the Dales."
Sorry, but it's pretty clear in WoT that Shartan was something more than just a "close advisor" and that he converted to Andrastianism. If he wanted other elves to do so it's something that hasn't been stated so far.
Pity the Chantry didn't spin it that way, it would have been brilliant, they spat in the face of the elf who fought alongside Andraste.
Agreed. They lost a great opportunity here, not to talk about the shaky theology about part of the Chant of Light being "deleted" for political reasons.
The circle of magic did last for about a 1000 years that's not exactly a failure.
So do tevinter empire and we know how well that went...
That it lased for for couple centuries means nothing question should be asked how it lasted judging by sh** that i had to fix in 2 games caused by chantry incompetence and sh** that i have clean now it says it wasn't pretty.
Shartan is also mentioned as a disciple in the codex in DA 2 for Glandivalis
If that were the case the Circle system would have fallen apart no less than 800 years ago.
Leaving the mental and psychological damage aside addicts cannot be trusted and will follow whoever provides their fix. that the chantry has never been challenged before doesn't mean it cannot be exploited. who provide the fix for the templars now? the venatori perhaps? if so it shows how easy it is to bend a people with an addiction can be twisted and how you can completely can make them the opposite what they once where.
What is their own Faith?
By this point you can reasonably assert the slate had been wiped clean, they had been under the yoke of the Imperium for nearly a thousand years now.
Whom is to say Shartan didn't intend for the religion of his people to be that of his own adopted God, in much the way Drakon wished for the entirety of what would eventually be Orlais to be Andrastian.
Beyond that, i doubt we will agree on this.
How are we to know that?
What we DO know however is that Shartan believed in the faith of the Maker, he converted.
Well there is that quest about Andraste's ashes where we get to meet the so called spirit of him and he says (if you answer his question correctly) Andraste was betrayed and so were they.
So do tevinter empire and we know how well that went...
That it lased for for couple centuries means nothing question should be asked how it lasted judging by sh** that i had to fix in 2 games caused by chantry incompetence and sh** that i have clean now it says it wasn't pretty.
There is a difference between an empire and a system like the circle of magic.
who provide the fix for the templars now?
Red Templars presumably do not need to imbibe Lyrium any further considering its literally "growing" out of their skin.
As for the Lambert faction templars, i'd presume they have their own stockpiles and sources, you don't prepare for a campaign with out providing adequate support for it.
Leaving the mental and psychological damage aside addicts cannot be trusted and will follow whoever provides their fix. that the chantry has never been challenged before doesn't mean it cannot be exploited. who provide the fix for the templars now? the venatori perhaps? if so it shows how easy it is to bend a people with an addiction can be twisted and how you can completely can make them the opposite what they once where.
Well im sure in good hands templars can crush mages prevent them from causing disaster.Besides as it is said templars were loyal to their job for centuries and many still are problem in that system collapsed thanks to mages and mostly divine.
There is a difference between an empire and a system like the circle of magic.
Nope there isn't unless you want search differences beyond how long it lasted that something lasted doesn't meant it do good job see orzammar...
Retour en haut