Aller au contenu

Photo

The impact of multiplayer on singleplayer design


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
128 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Wulfram

Wulfram
  • Members
  • 18 950 messages

(If you're groaning about yet another multiplayer thread, my apologies.  However this is really intended to be about singleplayer, and thus I think it's better in it's own thread, rather than tripping over actual multiplayer discussion.)

 

We've been told that MP is seperate from the SP campaign, and that it won't affect the ending of the game, hopefully putting some people's fears to rest.  And if you doubt that, there's not really much to do but hold off on playing the game until after we get reviews, so this isn't what the thread is intended to be about.

 

But that doesn't mean SP hasn't been affected by MP, as they were developed side by side.

 

Firstly, I wonder if there will be references to events and people from the MP in the SP campaign? 

It makes sense that there might be, since they after all are part of the same universe, and indeed working for the same organisation.  I don't think we've seen any suggestions that there would be, aside from the fact that the advisors will give the pre-mission briefing, but it seems like a good idea.  It could get annoying if such references were written as an unsubtle prod to go play MP, but I'm not going to assume the worst.

 

Probably more significant, however, is the impact that it may have on the gameplay. 

 

The FAQ says that "The multiplayer environment gave us a perfect opportunity for testing combat, creatures, and encounter design, and since the two environments are near-identical, every improvement spread to both parts of the game."

Which sounds logical enough, yet MP and SP are still quite different in important ways.  SP has pause, an important part of my play style, while MP does not.  And of course in MP you're only controlling a single character, while in SP you control a party, which means that whereas in MP requiring extra actions on the part of the player -  maybe by actively dodging enemy attacks, or having a more involved "rotation" with quick cooldowns - may be good because it increases the involvement of the player, in SP those actions spread across all 4 party members may become tiresomely fiddly micromanagement.  And in SP you can have a high degree of co-ordination between characters that would be wholly unrealistic to expect from a group of players, particularly a random pick up group.

 

Mostly I worry that this will encourage Bioware to emphasise the control of a single character over that of the group, as often seems to be the preferred style in gameplay videos.  Though the inclusion of the tactical camera is a hopeful sign of an earnest desire to serve a more tactical gameplay

 

We've also seen a couple of changes that seem very much like they are motivated by MP.  The addition of the ability to revive other characters, and the removal of the ability to select abilities from the radial menu on consoles.  Though tracing those to MP is purely speculation - and the addition of reviving may be a good thing, so long as it's not overly forgiving.

 

edit:  It doesn't seem like the change to console GUI is caused by MP


  • Elanor, Ryzaki, Blooddrunk1004 et 4 autres aiment ceci

#2
TheEgoRaptor

TheEgoRaptor
  • Members
  • 572 messages

*bleh*

 

 

Got my comment wrong.



#3
Rawgrim

Rawgrim
  • Members
  • 11 534 messages

I wonder if how Health regeneration is handled in DA:I was affected by MP. Probably not, I guess. Just a thought.



#4
Deflagratio

Deflagratio
  • Members
  • 2 513 messages

First of all, I'll readily concede that the thesis of your post is very true, as you pointed out they put it int he FAQ that combat design is influenced by lessons in DAMP at the very least.

 

However, I will point out that since it's a co-operative experience, I don't anticipate massive homogenized class power for the sake of balance, or anything like that. If anything, the biggest influences will be seen in things like Encounter design and AI reactivity.

 

Keeping the class structure of DAMP different than DASP also allows BioWare the flexibility to make adjustments specific to MP content, instead of sweeping global changes that may bleed into the DASP. That said, I don't anticipate lots of First-Order-Optimal-Strategies to survive for very long under the Co-Op experience. I think that's a universally positive gain though. You can do your best to convince me that exploits are a good thing, but as long as difficulty options exist, you're better off investing your time in getting good.

 

 

I wonder if how Health regeneration is handled in DA:I was affected by MP. Probably not, I guess. Just a thought.

 

Even if the choice was to compliment DAMP, I'd chalk that up as another net gain overall. But I hate regenerating health with a passion.


  • ManOfSteel, Rawgrim, phantomrachie et 1 autre aiment ceci

#5
Rawgrim

Rawgrim
  • Members
  • 11 534 messages

First of all, I'll readily concede that the thesis of your post is very true, as you pointed out they put it int he FAQ that combat design is influenced by lessons in DAMP at the very least.

 

However, I will point out that since it's a co-operative experience, I don't anticipate massive homogenized class power for the sake of balance, or anything like that. If anything, the biggest influences will be seen in things like Encounter design and AI reactivity.

 

Keeping the class structure of DAMP different than DASP also allows BioWare the flexibility to make adjustments specific to MP content, instead of sweeping global changes that may bleed into the DASP. That said, I don't anticipate lots of First-Order-Optimal-Strategies to survive for very long under the Co-Op experience. I think that's a universally positive gain though. You can do your best to convince me that exploits are a good thing, but as long as difficulty options exist, you're better off investing your time in getting good.

 

 

 

Even if the choice was to compliment DAMP, I'd chalk that up as another net gain overall. But I hate regenerating health with a passion.

 

 

I agree with you there. How health is handled in the game is a vast improvement. Having to plan things out is a very good thing.



#6
Wulfram

Wulfram
  • Members
  • 18 950 messages

I wonder if how Health regeneration is handled in DA:I was affected by MP. Probably not, I guess. Just a thought.

 

If anything, I'd have expected MP influence to go the other way.  Auto-regen would allow people to charge on regardless rather than deal with some guy whose got his character beat up.  And it'd take away some pressure for there to be a healer in the party.


  • Deflagratio et Rawgrim aiment ceci

#7
Deflagratio

Deflagratio
  • Members
  • 2 513 messages

Personally, the only worry I have about MP-SP conceit is the UI issue others have brought up. If the PC UI is limited to eight (especially in single player) for DAMP reasons, I can sympathize with people getting uppity over that. I won't necessarily think it's something that ruins the game, but it's definitely a perplexing choice. (One that I stated had a grounding in logical design, but that's not an excuse, just a mitigating factor)


  • Navasha, Mornmagor, Ryzaki et 1 autre aiment ceci

#8
Rawgrim

Rawgrim
  • Members
  • 11 534 messages

Wasn't 8 the amount you got in the other games too?



#9
wolfsite

wolfsite
  • Members
  • 5 780 messages

Best thing to do is wait until the game is actually out and everyone has played, at best right now all we can do is speculate which could lead people into believing opinion more than actual facts.

 

Bioware has shown that they can balance SP and MP with Mass Effect 3 as well as many of there previous games such as Neverwinter Knights (which people still play today thanks to the MP).



#10
Deflagratio

Deflagratio
  • Members
  • 2 513 messages

Wasn't 8 the amount you got in the other games too?

 

I actually don't remember. I thought DA:O was 10 on M-KB (0-9 Keys) but I haven't played it in so long.

 

I just think with Stamina in play, there isn't a whole lot of reason to have an arbitrary restriction on the number of abilities socketed in at a given time. I guess DPS could skyrocket if you slot in multiple high-damage and high-cooldown abilities. Abilities that would take much longer to recharge than how long it would take for their stamina cost to be replenished.



#11
Rawgrim

Rawgrim
  • Members
  • 11 534 messages

NWN was more of an MP game to begin with, I think. With the possebility for SP.



#12
Rawgrim

Rawgrim
  • Members
  • 11 534 messages

I actually don't remember. I thought DA:O was 10 on M-KB (0-9 Keys) but I haven't played it in so long.

 

I just think with Stamina in play, there isn't a whole lot of reason to have an arbitrary restriction on the number of abilities socketed in at a given time. I guess DPS could skyrocket if you slot in multiple high-damage and high-cooldown abilities. Abilities that would take much longer to recharge than how long it would take for their stamina cost to be replenished.

 

8 on xbox 360. So for me it won't make any difference. 8 was fine, though.



#13
Wulfram

Wulfram
  • Members
  • 18 950 messages


Wasn't 8 the amount you got in the other games too?

 

On PC you got as many as could fit on your quickbar, which was a lot, though only the first 10 were bound to keyboard keys.

 

Couldn't you access as many as you wanted via the radial menu on console?  That's been the impression I've got, though I'm a PC guy myself



#14
Rawgrim

Rawgrim
  • Members
  • 11 534 messages

 

On PC you got as many as could fit on your quickbar, which was a lot, though only the first 10 were bound to keyboard keys.

 

Couldn't you access as many as you wanted via the radial menu on console?  That's been the impression I've got, though I'm a PC guy myself

 

Actually you are right. You could. My bad. We can't do that in DAI?



#15
The Elder King

The Elder King
  • Members
  • 19 631 messages

Wasn't 8 the amount you got in the other games too?


On console there were 6 slots. They added two in DAI.

#16
Deflagratio

Deflagratio
  • Members
  • 2 513 messages

Actually you are right. You could. My bad. We can't do that in DAI?

 

 

No, from what I understand the new Radial Menu is our "Utility belt" with potions, poisons, contraptions and horse whistles on it.



#17
Rawgrim

Rawgrim
  • Members
  • 11 534 messages

No, from what I understand the new Radial Menu is our "Utility belt" with potions, poisons, contraptions and horse whistles on it.

 

That would hamper things, I suppose. It might be a hassle if you have alot of spells?



#18
HaHa365

HaHa365
  • Members
  • 243 messages

I wasn't too thrilled about MP but that was also because I thought they were going to do it differently. The co-op route isn't bad at all, for these kind of games. I have no issues with it, as long as things are not cut from SP, to make MP happen.


  • Rawgrim aime ceci

#19
cronshaw

cronshaw
  • Members
  • 4 997 messages

Wasn't 8 the amount you got in the other games too?

6 but you could always go to the radial menu to select others

If you can switch out any of the 8 during a pause in combat then it really isn't a big deal for anyone

Personally I don't mind having to choose just 8 abilities for any single combat



#20
Lady Shayna

Lady Shayna
  • Members
  • 272 messages

NWN was more of an MP game to begin with, I think. With the possebility for SP.

 

 

They always described it as a three-legged stool: SP, MP, and toolset.  Each leg was to have equal emphasis.  However, the relatively high emphasis on MP did significantly impact SP play (no controllable companions, for instance, and the design of the campaign).  I recall I was arguing pretty heavily for the inclusion of pause and play as well, as that was not originally intended in NWN.  I think with the inclusion of the expansions, it tilted a bit towards the SP aspect, or at least mitigated many of the flaws the MP-heavy design brought to the game.

 

It appears, so far, that DA : I has avoided many of the same mistakes, though I wouldn't be surprised if some of the GUI changes from previous games are a result of MP testing.   I'm not a big MP fan - even in the MMOs I've played, I stick to solo-able content 90% of the time - so I hope they do not later add any links at all between SP and MP play, and avoid the constant class balancing shuffle many MP-centric games end up having.


  • Mira et Rawgrim aiment ceci

#21
dekkerd

dekkerd
  • Members
  • 832 messages

That would hamper things, I suppose. It might be a hassle if you have alot of spells?


Yep, a major departure from previous games. As we understand it now, you can remap those hotkeys when not in combat. In combat you only have those 8.

#22
Guest_Trojan.Vundo_*

Guest_Trojan.Vundo_*
  • Guests
  

No, from what I understand the new Radial Menu is our "Utility belt" with potions, poisons, contraptions and horse whistles on it.

Yes, and now if you don't have the ability you need set on your ability map, your fucked. And people think mp doesn't affect SP? Lol
  • ddman12, Star fury, Nox et 2 autres aiment ceci

#23
The Elder King

The Elder King
  • Members
  • 19 631 messages
About the PC UI, I read again the combat Q&A, and they stated that there are eight slot 'on console'. While I think it's better to be wary, it might mean that on PC there'll be more hotkeys.

#24
Navasha

Navasha
  • Members
  • 3 724 messages

Yes, this is exactly my concern.   When I state that I don't want MP affecting SP.   I mean specifically this.    The limiting of the UI and gameplay mechanics so that they seem similar across both SP and MP modes.  

 

If the PC UI is limited to only 8 selections, then that will be a major drawback for me.    The previous DA games had about 26... so just to put that in perspective. 


  • In Exile, Paul E Dangerously, ddman12 et 5 autres aiment ceci

#25
Wulfram

Wulfram
  • Members
  • 18 950 messages

About the PC UI, I read again the combat Q&A, and they stated that there are eight slot 'on console'. While I think it's better to be wary, it might mean that on PC there'll be more hotkeys.

 

That would create a disadvantage for people who are playing with a controller and thus the "console" UI compared to those who are using keyboard and mouse, and I assume that they won't split the PC community according to interfce.  Though they might decide that it's not a huge issue, because people are choosing to use controller after all.