128 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

We're trying to emulate tabletop games, here. If we don't have a symmetrical ruleset, we'll never succeed.

In a tabletop game, you need a live GM running the opponents because there are so many more options in terms of what you can do. Using thr environment or subterfuge is extremely powerful.

In a CRPG, our toolbox is much smaller, so the human advantage is also much smaller. Also, even opponents using the same rules can be given advantages. They could have greater numbers, or better position, or better equipment, or be higher level.

I don't understand why people think we'd just be fighting doppelgangers.

Your point is valid in a game like NWN multiplayer where they did have a dm, or the new shadow whatever it is called mp game Bioware is doing.  In games that don't have a live opponent you can't do it.  Is it a desirable thing to happen some day?  Yes I agree but it won't come about any time soon and shouldn't until computer ai catches up with the unpredictability ans choice of a human player.  You are all about player choice and yet it would in fact have to be neutred to put it on the same playing field as computer ai.

[In Exile]

honestly it worked Metal Gear Solid... can't remember any other games where I can remember boss fights fondly.

And the MSG fights were really helped by atmosphere. Like fighting Liquid on top of Rex hand to hand.

[In Exile]

I guess I shouldn't be too hostile to MP influence since both previous games had pretty serious problems with their combat. Hostility to change only makes sense when the status quo is good. Even if the change isn't in exactly the direction I would choose.

The problem isn't that DA is changing combat. The issue is the pressure on changing the type of combat (from tactical to action RPG) and changing the UI (e.g. if our worries about the PC UI limit is true).

[BellPeppers&Beef023]

Like many others, this "Diablo 3" system of limited skills access is my biggest worry, especially that I play on PC. That they have not shown any PC user interface at this point does not inspire confidence either. Bioware's intent seems to be to level the playing field across all platforms gameplay wise, which might make this 8-skills only system a reality on PC (which might mean controller compatibility on PC finally, but the bad still outweighs the good).

 

I will only be upset if we find out after the game is released that the limited skill selection is expressly designed with Multiplayer in mind, which would throw their claim of MP having no effects on SP under the bus...again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No, I just think a controller is a better interface device than a keyboard for action controls.

That's arguably true only if the console keys are remappable. It's been quite a while since I played a console game, but I recall on the PS2 you could usually only choose among 2-3 pre-set control schemes.

And even then I'd prefer the keyboard. My hands just don't seem to work with controllers anymore.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The BG1 ruleset was worse. It was so appalling but then again, I am one of those people that didn't like BG or BG2

I still love playing BG (though I find I prefer NWN these days). But then, I don't play these games for a challenge. That my characters become overpowered isn't neceßarily a bad thing.

Edit: How did I produce an eszett accidentally?

[In Exile]

That's arguably true only if the xonsole keys are remappable. It's been quite a while since I played a console game, but I recall on the PS2 you could usually only choose among 2-3 pre-set control schemes.

And even then I'd prefer the keyboard. My hands just don't seem to work with controllers anymore.

I don't mind control schemes not being re-mapable because I've always learned them quite easily.

[In Exile]

I still love playing BG (though I find I prefer NWN these days). But then, I don't play these games for a challenge. That my characters become overpowered isn't neceßarily a bad thing.

Edit: How did I produce an eszett accidentally?

I think BG AI works quite well for what it needs to do, that is to say primarily 2D melee combat.

Control+shift?

[Ieolus]

We're trying to emulate tabletop games, here. If we don't have a symmetrical ruleset, we'll never succeed.

In a tabletop game, you need a live GM running the opponents because there are so many more options in terms of what you can do. Using thr environment or subterfuge is extremely powerful.

In a CRPG, our toolbox is much smaller, so the human advantage is also much smaller. Also, even opponents using the same rules can be given advantages. They could have greater numbers, or better position, or better equipment, or be higher level.

I don't understand why people think we'd just be fighting doppelgangers.

This is a product of real-time combat.  I'd love to go back to turn-based combat and a symmetrical ruleset.

[dragondreamer]

If it turns out MP is the reason the SP is being limited to 8 spells in combat, that isn't going to improve my mood towards MP. 

 

I can see how it won't be much impact on rogues and warriors, I rarely use more than three when I play with them...  But mages are a very different story.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Your point is valid in a game like NWN multiplayer where they did have a dm, or the new shadow whatever it is called mp game Bioware is doing. In games that don't have a live opponent you can't do it. Is it a desirable thing to happen some day? Yes I agree but it won't come about any time soon and shouldn't until computer ai catches up with the unpredictability ans choice of a human player. You are all about player choice and yet it would in fact have to be neutred to put it on the same playing field as computer ai.

The playing field is level as soon as the rules are thr same.

I play Alpha Centauri quite a bit. The difficulty settings there are well documented (there are 7), and level 3 is the one whereunder the rules apply to everyone equally.

I always play on that setting. And I basically always win. I'm not looking for a challenge; I'm looking for fairness.

Your concern is only relevant if someone wants both equal rules and a significant challenge. Is there such a person?

[Maria Caliban]

There is now a multiplayer forum if you'd like to talk about this there.

[Wulfram]

There is now a multiplayer forum if you'd like to talk about this there.

 

This thread isn't (supposed to be) about multiplayer, but about singleplayer

[The Elder King]

I wonder if they will lessen the difficulty of nightmare, to compensate for the loss of access to abilities.

As for now they only stated that normal will more difficult then in DA2. Possibly Nightmare will be more difficult as well.

[ianvillan]

I think what they are trying to say is that the multiplayer was built using systems already in place for the single player. They just added a layer of network connectivity. Having these systems in place already gave them an opportunity to test these systems more efficiently. The multiplayer is nothing but a stripped dowb singleplayer campaign with companions as friends

 

The Multiplayer has about 3 maps to choose from where the SP should have hundreds of different maps which has different terrain and should need the encounters created especially for them.

 

I would think that good encounter design for SP would come down to what the story is I.E. who is there to fight at that location, what level you could be at, what amount of talents you might have and what the terrain is like. The encounter should take that into account and be designed and tested to be the best and most entertaining by using and tweaking that encounter in the SP game not what is the most fun in MP.

 

Bioware were asked on twitter why they were not using the SP game to test the SP encounters and their excuse was it would take too long to load up the campaign to get to that encounter every time.

[Rawgrim]

A small side note here. I think people might be forgetting the tactics settings. I do think we can cut corners on that one. Set up wich abilities or spells characters can use if circumstances arrise, even if those abilities arn't part of the 8 we can use "at will" during combat.

[LexXxich]

A small side note here. I think people might be forgetting the tactics settings. I do think we can cut corners on that one. Set up wich abilities or spells characters can use if circumstances arrise, even if those abilities arn't part of the 8 we can use "at will" during combat.

It wouldn't affect currently selected character.

[The Elder King]

Or perhaps it is the same difficulty as DA2, but  made harder by the absence of ability access.

I don't think so, for a simple reason. While there are people (as myself) that played using the radial menu, there were others who played without, and played on higher difficulty as well. I think that when they said that normal is more difficult they were referring in general to how the variough fights are structurated, to the various behaviour of different enemy types, etc.
Though I guess we'll have to wait and see which theory is true.

[aaarcher86]

The Multiplayer has about 3 maps to choose from where the SP should have hundreds of different maps which has different terrain and should need the encounters created especially for them.

 

I would think that good encounter design for SP would come down to what the story is I.E. who is there to fight at that location, what level you could be at, what amount of talents you might have and what the terrain is like. The encounter should take that into account and be designed and tested to be the best and most entertaining by using and tweaking that encounter in the SP game not what is the most fun in MP.

 

Bioware were asked on twitter why they were not using the SP game to test the SP encounters and their excuse was it would take too long to load up the campaign to get to that encounter every time.

 

They aren't saying that they didn't use SP to test SP encounters as well.  They're just advising HOW the two worked together.  If you can have one Dev running through the SP experience where the encounter is triggered (which is going to take longer) and another testing solely the encounter itself in MP, why wouldn't you use both resources? 

 

User

I was hoping you could reduce my fears of the main single player game being affected by the coop being added into the game?

 

Patrick Weekes ‏@PatrickWeekes

The only thing MP did was test combat more, making for a better SP experience.

 

[ianvillan]

They aren't saying that they didn't use SP to test SP encounters as well.  They're just advising HOW the two worked together.  If you can have one Dev running through the SP experience where the encounter is triggered (which is going to take longer) and another testing solely the encounter itself in MP, why wouldn't you use both resources? 

 

I wouldn't use the MP because it is a different system with different maps, a Dev could create the greatest and most entertaining encounter ever in MP it does not mean that it would even work in SP. If they are taking SP encounters and testing them in MP so they are fun in MP and not testing them in SP to save time then I fear the SP encounters will not be as good as they can be and that we will see the MP influence on them.