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He doesn't deserve to die.  That doesn't mean I like the Justice/Anders.  In fact, I STRONGLY dislike him.  But I applaud the writing for evoking such emotion in me.

[SmilesJA]

I don't think so, since there are few things less just than slavery. After all he and Anders think the Circles are slavery and want to stop those, and yet don't care if a person is taken into actual slavery? No, Anders approving of that action is Anders, not Justice. 

 

At that time Anders was losing his battle for control with Justice who distorted Anders view of what justice is. I hesitate to say it was just Anders alone, since in Act 3 he's becoming more irrational.

[Lulupab]

I don't think so, since there are few things less just than slavery. After all he and Anders think the Circles are slavery and want to stop those, and yet don't care if a person is taken into actual slavery? No, Anders approving of that action is Anders, not Justice.

Well with that mindset Fenris thinks all mages must be locked up in circles. That very likely angers Anders greatly because Fenris is doing what you said Anders is doing. Both are approving and none of them acting upon it.

[Sir DeLoria]

Well with that mindset Fenris thinks all mages must be locked up in circles. That very likely angers Anders greatly because Fenris is doing what you said Anders is doing. Both are approving and none of them acting upon it.

It's funny how Anders spends his entire life fighting a pseudo slavery system but approves of actually enslaving certain people. What a pathetic hypocrite.

[Lulupab]

It's funny how Anders spends his entire life fighting a pseudo slavery system but approves of actually enslaving certain people. What a pathetic hypocrite.

Fenris openly insults him and tells him he must be locked up for 8 years. Now this is funny, for those who say Anders have no control he has ignored Fenris for 8 years and when Hawke decides to sell him (which is like 100% of the deed) he practically says good riddance, now you are locked up.

[Sir DeLoria]

Fenris openly insults him and tells him he must be locked up for 8 years. Now this is funny, for those who say Anders have no control he has ignored Fenris for 8 years and when Hawke decides to sell him (which is like 100% of the deed) he practically says good riddance, now you are locked up.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't wish eternal slavery, torture and memory wiping upon even the worst of my enemies. So yes, Anders has control over his actions and opinions, he's just a spiteful, malicious assh*le.

It's also not like Fenris had no cause to hate Anders, Anders' actions were extremely questionable and even he himself realized and admitted it. Anders is a criminal, a murderer and a cowardly deserter, yes he does deserve to be locked up, there's no denying that.

[Xilizhra]

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't wish eternal slavery, torture and memory wiping upon even the worst of my enemies. So yes, Anders has control over his actions and opinions, he's just a spiteful, malicious assh*le.

It's also not like Fenris had no cause to hate Anders, Anders' actions were extremely questionable and even he himself realized and admitted it. Anders is a criminal, a murderer and a cowardly deserter, yes he does deserve to be locked up, there's no denying that.

It's not about wishing it on them, it's about eliminating an enemy.

 

I also think that any debt Anders owes to society can be paid better through service in this war. Possibly even in the Inquisition.

[Lulupab]

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't wish eternal slavery, torture and memory wiping upon even the worst of my enemies. So yes, Anders has control over his actions and opinions, he's just a spiteful, malicious assh*le.
It's also not like Fenris had no cause to hate Anders, Anders' actions were extremely questionable and even he himself realized and admitted it. Anders is a criminal, a murderer and a cowardly deserter, yes he does deserve to be locked up, there's no denying that.

Those adjectives you bestow upon Anders are highly questionable before the chantry incident which is the time he approves of sending Fenris to slavery. Murderer? Almost all companions have killed more than him to this point of the game . He didn't desert, he was betrayed by a chantry spy among grey wardens and in self defense he had to kill them all. Anders is anything but coward, apart from his heroic actions in awakening which is told in epilogue, Anders kills hundreds of darkspawn single handedly and is branded hero of vigil's keep. (even if he dies he still kills hundreds, all darkspawn corpses without a single physical wound, all fell my magic). And after destroying the chantry he does not escape because he thinks Justice is required of him for the lives he took, and since Justice is his main motivation this action alone cleanses Anders from all hypocrisy because he has done the ultimate opposite and does not discriminate on the topic of Justice.

"Anders deserved to be locked up" With that mindset the chantry deserved what it got, systematically abusing mages for a thousand years. You hate and shun something like that it will explode in your face, quite literally in Anders' case.

And we know for a fact that Fenris is a hypocrite himself and has been always jealous of mages. He would do anything to become a magister of tevinter.

[Sir DeLoria]

It's not about wishing it on them, it's about eliminating an enemy.
 
I also think that any debt Anders owes to society can be paid better through service in this war. Possibly even in the Inquisition.

That doesn't make him any less of an assh*le, perhaps even more.

Unless, you're fighting against the mage rebellion, in which case he's better off put down.

[Xilizhra]

And we know for a fact that Fenris is a hypocrite himself and has been always jealous of mages. He would do anything to become a magister of tevinter.

To be fair and internally consistent, I must say that the only evidence for this was a decision he made while under demonic mind control.

 

That doesn't make him any less of an assh*le, perhaps even more.

Unless, you're fighting against the mage rebellion, in which case he's better off put down.

Well, if so, then you're evil anyway and nothing I say would matter.

[Lulupab]

To be fair and internally consistent, I must say that the only evidence for this was a decision he made while under demonic mind control.
 

That and a conversation when Danarius shows up. Fenris has killed to get those tattoos and his memory was intact at that time. He have eliminated rivals to gain more power in Tevinter society. Hawke can actually accuse him of jealousy towards mages.

[Xilizhra]

That and a conversation when Danarius shows up. Fenris has killed to get those tattoos and his memory was intact at that time. He have eliminated rivals to gain more power in Tevinter society. Hawke can actually accuse him of jealousy towards mages.

But he was doing that to get his family freed.

[Sir DeLoria]

Those adjectives you bestow upon Anders are highly questionable before the chantry incident which is the time he approves of sending Fenris to slavery. Murderer? Almost all companions have killed more than him to this point of the game .

In self-defense(most of them). Anders has undoubtedly killed people, wether it was Karl, the mage girl underneath the Gallows or anyone who intervened in his previous affairs.

He didn't desert, he was betrayed by a chantry spy among grey wardens and in self defense he had to kill them all.

And yet he hides from them and doesn't have the spine to face them.

Anders is anything but coward, apart from his heroic actions in awakening which is told in epilogue, Anders kills hundreds of darkspawn single handedly and is branded hero of vigil's keep. (even if he dies he still kills hundreds, all darkspawn corpses without a single physical wound, all fell my magic).

So? He's a good mage, but these feats have been accomplished by almost every companion in DA. Terrorism is the ultimate act of cowardice and Anders is a coward.

And after destroying the chantry he does not escape because he thinks Justice is required of him for the lives he took, and since Justice is his main motivation this action alone cleanses Anders from all hypocrisy because he has done the ultimate opposite and does not discriminate on the topic of Justice.

How can you "cleanse" yourself of hypocrisy, what is done cannot be undone. And accepting death to try and make yourself a martyr doesn't attone for his crimes.

"Anders deserved to be locked up" With that mindset the chantry deserved what it got, systematically abusing mages for a thousand years. You hate and shun something like that it will explode in your face, quite literally in Anders' case.

This is a whole different topic, but Elthina or the Chantry, was if anything only indirectly responsible for what happened in Kirkwall. Anders killed the only thing standing for peace, he ignited the fire that potentially cost the lives of all mages in Kirkwall and if the mage rebellion fails, then perhaps the blood of half the mages in Thedas is on his hands.

And we know for a fact that Fenris is a hypocrite himself and has been always jealous of mages. He would do anything to become a magister of tevinter.

Yes, Fenris is a hypocrite, just like Anders, so? Their hypocrisy doesn't excuse hypocrisy from the opposing side.

[Sir DeLoria]

Well, if so, then you're evil anyway and nothing I say would matter.

Lol, calling someone evil over their opinion on a piece of fiction is funny.

[Xilizhra]

In self-defense(most of them). Anders has undoubtedly killed people, wether it was Karl, the mage girl underneath the Gallows or anyone who intervened in his previous affairs.

The former at his own behest, the latter can be stopped with ease.

 

 

And yet he hides from them and doesn't have the spine to face them.

'Twasn't the case with Stroud.

 

 

So? He's a good mage, but these feats have been accomplished by almost every companion in DA. Terrorism is the ultimate act of cowardice and Anders is a coward.

Er, how, precisely?

 

 

This is a whole different topic, but Elthina or the Chantry, was if anything only indirectly responsible for what happened in Kirkwall. Anders killed the only thing standing for peace, he ignited the fire that potentially cost the lives of all mages in Kirkwall and if the mage rebellion fails, then perhaps the blood of half the mages in Thedas is on his hands.

The fire was inevitable, Anders just lit it at a more convenient time.

 

 

Lol, calling someone evil over their opinion on a piece of fiction is funny.

Well, you aren't fighting mages yourself personally, yes? I was referring to people in-universe.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Define "ruin". Gaider set him to do the chantry thing and most major things that he does. Hepler did romance, dialogue and other similar stuff.

 

Hm. I actually like the idea of Anders agreeing to host Justice, that merger changing him, him having changes in his beliefs and becoming a (crazy) mage revolutionary.

 

What I did not like was the execution of it. Like I said, I did not find him sympathetic or ambiguous a figure: he was not convincing, did not make many good points when pressed, often begging the question about valid things like possession and leaving them unanswered; he contradicted his own arguments from time to time (Danarius is okay by him; blood-magic use as bad for mages' image, but image did not matter to him when bombing the Chantry, so now why is blood-magic wrong again?); he hates how mages are treated but think its okay to be hateful of Templars and stereotype them all with the worst; he's paranoid (he thinks the Chantry will some day agree to The Tranquil Solution); he's nasty to those who do not support him (lecturing Isabela, getting on Sebastian's case, Merrill, Carver, even making a backhanded comment at Circle!Bethany for accepting her life there); he was often unpleasant in demeanor; his humor fell off a cliff (definitely Hepler); his master-plan was bad/stupid on both a moral and practical level...

 

... it's just a poor body of work by the writer when you analyze it. Unless the intention was for Anders to be the mages' villain equivalent to Meredith on the other side, I would give them a failing grade on it. I get wanting the character to be flawed, but Anders' flaws did not balance out well because he had so many of them (some big) and so few redeeming qualities. Ultimately, I should doubt that very many people who do not strongly agree with his views find him ambiguous or sympathetic, which is the real failing.

[HTTP 404]

Hm. I actually like the idea of Anders agreeing to host Justice, that merger changing him, him having changes in his beliefs and becoming a (crazy) mage revolutionary.

 

What I did not like was the execution of it. Like I said, I did not find him sympathetic or ambiguous a figure: he was not convincing, did not make many good points when pressed, often begging the question about valid things like possession and leaving them unanswered; he contradicted his own arguments from time to time (Danarius is okay by him; blood-magic use as bad for mages' image, but image did not matter to him when bombing the Chantry, so now why is blood-magic wrong again?); he hates how mages are treated but think its okay to be hateful of Templars and stereotype them all with the worst; he's paranoid (he thinks the Chantry will some day agree to The Tranquil Solution); he's nasty to those who do not support him (lecturing Isabela, getting on Sebastian's case, Merrill, Carver, even making a backhanded comment at Circle!Bethany for accepting her life there); he was often unpleasant in demeanor; his humor fell off a cliff (definitely Hepler); his master-plan was bad/stupid on both a moral and practical level...

 

... it's just a poor body of work by the writer when you analyze it. Unless the intention was for Anders to be the mages' villain equivalent to Meredith on the other side, I would give them a failing grade on it. I get wanting the character to be flawed, but Anders' flaws did not balance out well because he had so many of them (some big) and so few redeeming qualities. Ultimately, I should doubt that very many people who do not strongly agree with his views find him ambiguous or sympathetic, which is the real failing.

 

I agree on your outlook on him but disagree on execution.  Anders is plain nuts and I think it was done on purpose.  He reminds me of a paranoid schizophrenic.  Everything he worries about is amplified 10x and I think that has to do with the spirit possessing/inhabiting him.  Example being the Tranquil solution, he believed ALL Templars were involved and was convinced of it.   He is also convinced of his delusions of how all Templars treat mages.  Example:  He wanted Alric to be killed so that the mages in the cave can escape.  Alric is the most sympathatic to mage plight. 

 

If you look at other abominations, they tended to deal in absolutes and having that kind of thinking tends to be hypocritical.  The difference here is that Anders has a "good" spirit instead of an "evil" demon.  In that regard I think the writing was spot on for his character.
 

[dekarserverbot]

It's a shame, really, I feel like he ended up with the most wasted potential of all of the DA2 companions, and thus I generally find myself annoyed by him, since even though I can absolutely see the gold that's buried in his character, it never really comes to the surface.

 

The gold was in Awakenings, Dragon age 2 just buried it in another infamous plothole... a black one so it will only be found in another plane. I liked Anders in awakening in DA2 i hate him as i do with the entire "game" (you can't call a button masher/date sim combo a game, it's like puting mannure instead of meat in a famous star)

[Sir DeLoria]

The former at his own behest, the latter can be stopped with ease.

Still a crime and since the point was wether Anders deserved to be locked up, the answer seems clear.

'Twasn't the case with Stroud.

Which is quite strange coming to think of it.

Er, how, precisely?

Which point are you asking about? Terrorism being cowardly? I think that's a given, no matter how you look at it. And I do think that all of our companions can have quite the body count, even Lulu seems to agree.

The fire was inevitable, Anders just lit it at a more convenient time.

Simce the system had been working for millennia, I'm not sure I agree. He's still directly responsible, no matter the circumstances.

Well, you aren't fighting mages yourself personally, yes? I was referring to people in-universe.

And defending the vast majority of the population from a small minority with incredible powers is evil? Yes, the Circles aren't perfect and I pity the mages who are forced to live within, but they're a necessity. Maybe there is a better solution, but absolute freedom doesn't work, mages have proven that time and time again.

[Xilizhra]

Still a crime and since the point was wether Anders deserved to be locked up, the answer seems clear.

I consider the legal system for mages to be too ruinous for any answer to be so clear.

 

 

Simce the system had been working for millennia, I'm not sure I agree. He's still directly responsible, no matter the circumstances.

Technically, he wasn't directly responsible for the greater war. That started later.

 

 

And defending the vast majority of the population from a small minority with incredible powers is evil? Yes, the Circles aren't perfect and I pity the mages who are forced to live within, but they're a necessity. Maybe there is a better solution, but absolute freedom doesn't work, mages have proven that time and time again.

This isn't about absolute freedom, it's about the fact that the Templar Order is an absolutely intolerable regime under which to live. A new solution can be found, but first we have to stop these maniacs with swords and the Maker on their side from imprisoning, killing, or mindraping us all.

[Sir DeLoria]

This isn't about absolute freedom, it's about the fact that the Templar Order is an absolutely intolerable regime under which to live. A new solution can be found, but first we have to stop these maniacs with swords and the Maker on their side from imprisoning, killing, or mindraping us all.

I know they're your favorite scapegoats, but they're just men and women doing their jobs, most of them are ordinary soldiers and knights. Yes, they have fanatics among their ranks, who provoked the war, but mages like Uldred, Grace and Anders are just as responsible and terrible in their deeds.

Besides, I don't think a system can work without a Templar Order (reworked or not), even Tevinter has one and I don't think there is any nation in Thedas without a force regulating the mages.

[Lulupab]

Which point are you asking about? Terrorism being cowardly? I think that's a given, no matter how you look at it. And I do think that all of our companions can have quite the body count, even Lulu seems to agree.

Calling Anders a coward is a joke, I think you need to look it up in dictionary. Whether its because of Justice or whatever Anders is almost incapable of fear or backing down when mages are concerned. Also I was not talking about mere body counts, Anders's heroism is acknowledged in epilogue of the game, he alone kills hundreds of darkspawn with his magic and is the only companion who thinks Amaranthine mus be saved. We have an assassin who have killed for pleasure and money, a pirate who endangers the whole city and causes hundreds of death, a qunari who murdered a whole family with children because he lost a piece of metal and I can go on.

Its not the body count that matters, its the heroism. As I said there is a lot of room to dislike Anders but you add a lot of baseless accusations to the table. Anders himself never questioned that what he did was wrong. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity. He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than total freedom. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives. So he removed any stalemate--"there can be no compromise"--in the name of ending an indisputably broken system that served no one.

[Xilizhra]

I know they're your favorite scapegoats, but they're just men and women doing their jobs, most of them are ordinary soldiers and knights. Yes, they have fanatics among their ranks, who provoked the war, but mages like Uldred, Grace and Anders are just as responsible and terrible in their deeds.

Besides, I don't think a system can work without a Templar Order (reworked or not), even Tevinter has one and I don't think there is any nation in Thedas without a force regulating the mages.

I know that they're mostly ordinary soldiers. I hate to Godwin, but now that I've said that, you know where I'm going.

 

Do you know the phrase "banality of evil?" It refers to the fact that many evil deeds are committed by basically ordinary people who just don't care enough to stand against them, and it's something that's made humanity relatively easy to manipulate by tyrants (also our general compulsion to obey authority figures). It's the system of the Templar Order that's primarily responsible for this, and that system above all else, I believe, must be destroyed.

 

There could well be others with templar powers who could protect the mages in the future, but they wouldn't be the Templar Order.

[Sir DeLoria]

Calling Anders a coward is a joke, I think you need to look it up in dictionary. Whether its because of Justice or whatever Anders is almost incapable of fear or backing down when mages are concerned. Also I was not talking about mere body counts, Anders's heroism is acknowledged in epilogue of the game, he alone kills hundreds of darkspawn with his magic and is the only companion who thinks Amaranthine mus be saved. We have an assassin who have killed for pleasure and money, a pirate who endangers the whole city and causes hundreds of death, a qunari who murdered a whole family with children because he lost a piece of metal and I can go on.


Its not the body count that matters, its the heroism. As I said there is a lot of room to dislike Anders but you add a lot of baseless accusations to the table. Anders himself never questioned that what he did was wrong. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity. He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than total freedom. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives. So he removed any stalemate--"there can be no compromise"--in the name of ending an indisputably broken system that served no one.

So blowing up churches is heroic in your eyes? Yeah suuuree, but ey some people think the IRA was heroic for killing innocents in order to advance their extremist agenda. Anders is taking a huge gamble with hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of lives that could potentially lead to a complete mage-genocide.

It doesn't matter how many Darkspawn he killed, or how many people he murdered, it's the way he killed them. And believe me, Isabela and Sten are initially some of the most cowardly companions in the series.

[Who Knows]

Sigrun and Justice (heh) immediately approve of saving Amaranthine, and all other companions can be persuaded to do so, so Anders is hardly alone on that.