61 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

I know that they're mostly ordinary soldiers. I hate to Godwin, but now that I've said that, you know where I'm going.
 
Do you know the phrase "banality of evil?" It refers to the fact that many evil deeds are committed by basically ordinary people who just don't care enough to stand against them, and it's something that's made humanity relatively easy to manipulate by tyrants (also our general compulsion to obey authority figures). It's the system of the Templar Order that's primarily responsible for this, and that system above all else, I believe, must be destroyed.

Please don't Godwin this, the mage freedom debate is in no way, even slightly relatable to the Third Reich. The Templars aren't evil in their role and the majority of their acts wasn't evil, but if anything a reaction to mage extremists. Have you completely forgotten everything that happened in DA:O?

No idea why I'm arguing with you though, you're not gonna change your opinions and neither am I.
 

There could well be others with templar powers who could protect the mages in the future, but they wouldn't be the Templar Order.

What's wrong with the Templar Order in itself for you?

[Lulupab]

So blowing up churches is heroic in your eyes? Yeah suuuree, but ey some people think the IRA was heroic for killing innocents in order to advance their extremist agenda. Anders is taking a huge gamble with hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of lives that could potentially lead to a complete mage-genocide.
It doesn't matter how many Darkspawn he killed, or how many people he murdered, it's the way he killed them. And believe me, Isabela and Sten are initially some of the most cowardly companions in the series.

Anders is a revolutionary and his actions is not so different than a real life revolutionary, I didn't consider the chantry incident heroic, but I did the character himself. After all he is most likely singing his own death song by doing it, if not by hands of Hawke he is sure to be hunted so he has nothing to gain for himself, he did the abhorrent act so no one else has to and leaders can rise up and question the kirkwall incident. How can you expect mages to feel safe when a whole circle got annulled because of actions of an apostate who had nothing to with circles. BTW did you even read what I wrote? Because I don't see any answer in your reply to 2nd paragraph of my post.

[Lulupab]

Sigrun and Justice (heh) immediately approve of saving Amaranthine, and all other companions can be persuaded to do so, so Anders is hardly alone on that.

Yeah sorry I messed up. Anders is the only companion who prefers to stay at Vigil's Keep and disapproves of being taken to Amaranthine because he thinks he will be more useful defending the vigil which seems to be quite true as he is branded hero of vigil's keep after battle, dead or alive.

[Sir DeLoria]

Anders is a revolutionary and his actions is not so different than a real life revolutionary, I didn't consider the chantry incident heroic, but I did the character himself. After all he is most likely singing his own death song by doing it, if not by hands of Hawke he is sure to be hunted so he has nothing to gain for himself, he did the abhorrent act so no one else has to and leaders can rise up and question the kirkwall incident. How can you expect mages to feel safe when a whole circle got annulled because of actions of an apostate who had nothing to with circles. BTW did you even read what I wrote? Because I don't see any answer in your reply to 2nd paragraph of my post.

Because I've read that same paragraph you wrote there from you or other mage supporters half a dozen times already, i's nothing new. It's also irrelevant to the point, cause is irrelevant, it's the action that we're talking about here.

And revolutionary isn't necessarily a positive term, Che Guevara was a revolutionary and killed hundreds of innocents for his agenda. Anders agenda isn't necessarily something everyone agrees with and him killing innocents isn't helping it. His action was cowardly, he only accepts the consequences in an attempt to make himself a martyr.

The Kirkwall Circle annulment is a whole different topic, but it's not like there was no reason to do it.

[Xilizhra]

Please don't Godwin this, the mage freedom debate is in no way, even slightly relatable to the Third Reich. The Templars aren't evil in their role and the majority of their acts wasn't evil, but if anything a reaction to mage extremists. Have you completely forgotten everything that happened in DA:O?

No idea why I'm arguing with you though, you're not gonna change your opinions and neither am I.

Tranquil Solution up in this business. If this is "in no way comparable" to the Third Reich, it apparently missed the writers.

 

I would say that the way the templars play their role, and what the Order does overall, is evil, yes.

 

 

What's wrong with the Templar Order in itself for you?

Its religious affiliation, its magophobia, its long-running policies and culture, and its war of aggression against the independent Circle.

 

 

The Kirkwall Circle annulment is a whole different topic, but it's not like there was no reason to do it.

No, there was no reason to do it.

[Who Knows]

Anders was operating alone, so...there really was little reason to annul the Circle. Meredith wanted an excuse, and she didn't want her rule threatened by people who wanted the mages to be punished for what Anders did. Not to mention the whole paranoia idol thing.

[Sir DeLoria]

Tranquil Solution up in this business. If this is "in no way comparable" to the Third Reich, it apparently missed the writers.

I would say that the way the templars play their role, and what the Order does overall, is evil, yes.

Wow great, an over the top idea, proposed by a single fanatic, which was denied by every single one of his superiors. Yeah, great comparision.

That's your opinion, do what you will with it, but many people won't agree.

Its religious affiliation, its magophobia, its long-running policies and culture, and its war of aggression against the independent Circle.

What's wrong with religious affiliation? DA plays in a medieval world, lack of secularism can't seriously be applied as a point of critique here. Magophobia? That's not applicable to the entire order and it's also quite justified considering the events of the past. Policies and culture? What are you talking about? This point is vague and rubbish. War of aggression against the independent Circle? Lol, that's a hilariously over the top description of the fact that they largely don't approve of this particular idea for the future of the Circles.

No, there was no reason to do it.

How about the fact that half of Kirkwall's mages resorted to blood magic, human sacrifice and demon invocation? I don't think the annulment was right either, but the Templars had reasons, you're just ignoring them.

[Xilizhra]

Wow great, an over the top idea, proposed by a single fanatic, which was denied by every single one of his superiors. Yeah, great comparision.

That's your opinion, do what you will with it, but many people won't agree.

I'm saying that the writers deliberately invoked parallels. And other people might not agree, but I don't have to care.

 

 

What's wrong with religious affiliation? DA plays in a medieval world, lack of secularism can't seriously be applied as a point of critique here. Magophobia? That's not applicable to the entire order and it's also quite justified considering the events of the past. Policies and culture? What are you talking about? This point is vague and rubbish. War of aggression against the independent Circle? Lol, that's a hilariously over the top description of the fact that they largely don't approve of this particular idea for the future of the Circles.

If you haven't read Asunder, I recommend it. It fleshes many things out. But the short version is that the Chantry let the Circle secede without a fight; the templars then seceded themselves and declared a war against the Circle with absolutely no casus belli, due to the fact that the templars had only become an independent polity right then.

 

 

How about the fact that half of Kirkwall's mages resorted to blood magic, human sacrifice and demon invocation? I don't think the annulment was right either, but the Templars had reasons, you're just ignoring them.

They had reasons, but those reasons were complete ****. And it was not only very far from half, none of those mages were in the Circle.

[Sir DeLoria]

They had reasons, but those reasons were complete ****. And it was not only very far from half, none of those mages were in the Circle.

This is an interesting point actually, was it ever really elaborated who was in the Circle and who wasn't or how many mages were really involved? I think most blood mages from Act 3 on are in the Circle, which would explain their ties to the dissident Templars.

[Xilizhra]

This is an interesting point actually, was it ever really elaborated who was in the Circle and who wasn't or how many mages were really involved? I think most blood mages from Act 3 on are in the Circle, which would explain their ties to the dissident Templars.

The ones from the quest Best Served Cold, yes (who don't sacrifice people or summon demons). All the others, there's no evidence whatsoever.

[lane]

That depends on how you look at it. Anders' romance is the most real one out there because the other three worship Hawke and don't mind anything. For example if you offer Fenris to Danarius then change your mind, Fenris is like "Yeah ok, no biggy, ~french kiss". Its just so fake. Anders romance has many dramatic points and there are some red lines that if you pass Anders will end romance regardless of anything else such as making a deal with a demon.

Anders romance felt like the worthy romance that acompagny the game . I call it the ''real romance".  All the others are just dull and hollow to me...Anders is so selfless that he accept your love wether in friend or rival, stay a tender and peferct lover, protect and sleep every night next to someone who probably gonna kill him for his belief ...so try to acheive this stage of selfless when your lover say he didnt want to drag you in this and think it would have been  WORST if you accepted to help him. 

personally people here will say they felt outraged, betrayed blah blah when they first seen the ooooooh mighty explosion ... . I felt stunned by the fact that Anders is SO surprised i let him live !!! as if He and Hawke hadnt shared close to ten years together...personally whenever i think about it i can help being a bit teary ...and people will think its tears of betrayal. No it was how much painfully compassionate Anders felt in that moment. And i think they  should have put another sentence than 'help me free the mages' yes maybe Hawke was in a hurry, but after such a speech from him, the line he says their first night of "i want you right here until the day we die" might have been more adequate for me. Cause there, its all about them. their true love ,no matter the sacrifices, the number of enemies . And to me, they'll have run away alone if it must,with just his sibling.

i'll never say it enough ,Anders felt to me like the second hero in DA2. a truly blessed/cursed character and i love the hell outa him with that exact mix !!!!

[Jaulen]

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't wish eternal slavery, torture and memory wiping upon even the worst of my enemies. So yes, Anders has control over his actions and opinions, he's just a spiteful, malicious assh*le.

It's also not like Fenris had no cause to hate Anders, Anders' actions were extremely questionable and even he himself realized and admitted it. Anders is a criminal, a murderer and a cowardly deserter, yes he does deserve to be locked up, there's no denying that.

 

 

Fenris hates Anders for one reason and one reason only, he's a mage.

 

Does Fenris have precognition and know that by the end of the game Anders is going to blow the Chantry? No. So saying that Fenris is right in disliking Anders becuase he's a murderer.....and as for the murder thing......Fenris mruders a whole group of people that were keeping him safe after he ran away from Danarius, just because Denarius told him to....and this was before we met Fenris....so Fenris is the murderer.

 

What is Anders before the blowing of the Chantry? A Warden deserter (who we see in his short story has a good reason to leave)....but someone who is living semi-openly as a mage, healing people.....not murdering people, healing people with no payment. Then he starts going paranoid (Vengance's input) and going 'mage freedom fighter' (with how the Templars in Kirkwall are portrayed, not surprizing) ... Anders as just-Anders would want nothing more than to be left alone....Vengence Anders becomes twisted and focused on the injustice of how mages are treated.