310 réponses à ce sujet

[Riven326]

I was having this discussion today with a friend and thought I would try to get some insight from you fine folks. Was Loghain justified in what he did at Ostagar? My friend seems to think so. I do not, however. I feel like he is a war criminal. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring the fact that he was a hero and did great things for Ferelden. And if he did have a good reason for leaving his king to die to fall to the darkspawn, I would certainly hear him out.

 

My friend seems to think he had a good reason  - there were too many darkspawn, and even if he sent his troops in to reinforce those that were already fighting, they still would have lost the battle. He points to the Ostagar DLC as evidence, where one of Cailan's men says the battle was already lost. It's been a long time since I've played that DLC, so I can't really say if that's what was really said or not.

 

Nevertheless, it's got me thinking about the whole thing. I do remember the landsmeet rather well, and Loghain didn't make any arguments that swayed me. He seemed like a man driven by prejudice and paranoia, so much so that he would sacrifice his king and anyone else who got in his way. The threat of Orlais, however, was distant, and as Cailan put it, "a thing of the past."

 

So, what say you? Am I right or am I wrong on this?

[Dabrikishaw]

Ultimately it depends on whether or not you think Ostagar was winnable. Gaider has already said it wasn't.

[Elhanan]

Loghain left the Wardens and his King to die. Many seem to believe it was justified, but in doing so, he is proven to be unworthy of the accolades concerning him as a great strategist and tactician. He was beaten by underestimating the enemy, as well as his bigotry against Orlais. He is also guilty of not acting; of never knowing if he could have completed his plans.

At best, he is a failure; at worst, he is a murderer. He is also my fave villain in CRPG's.

[Aimi]

Loghain's decision at Ostagar was wrong because he left the Grey Wardens to die, and Wardens are the only way to stop a Blight. He then compounded his error by hunting down the remaining Wardens and trying to exterminate them. Even if he made this error because he didn't believe that the darkspawn invasion was a 'true Blight', or if he simply didn't know Wardens are essential to stopping a Blight, it was still the wrong thing to do, and his lack of knowledge nearly doomed Ferelden.

The game leaves Loghain's motivations intentionally ambiguous. He appeals to the nationalism that is the last refuge of the scoundrel, but he also appears to genuinely believe in it. He appeals to his own assumed military authority, when it's not particularly clear that he was making a militarily sensible decision. It is difficult to distinguish the actions of a Loghain who merely wished to protect the people of Ferelden from foreign enemies (like the 'Orlesian' Grey Wardens and the Orlesians themselves) from the actions of a Loghain who saw an opportunity to seize power for himself and took it. Perhaps it is not even necessary to distinguish them; both motivations could certainly coexist in his mind, feeding off of one another.

Whether you believe that Loghain's decision to abandon the king and his men at Ostagar was militarily justifiable (and, to reiterate: I don't), you must also look to the other consequences of his actions. Loghain's army fled southern Ferelden and left the vast majority of the country wide open to the depredations of the darkspawn. Loghain's troops were nowhere to be found when the Blight wiped out Lothering; instead, he was pursuing a civil war against many of the bannorn as a direct consequence of what happened at Ostagar. By the end of his regency, Loghain was selling Fereldan subjects into foreign slavery in order to secure cash and arms for his civil war. This is a far cry from the nationalist ranting about Orlesian imperialism.

I think that both you and your friend have plenty of support for your own beliefs, because Loghain was intentionally written as a somewhat complex antagonist with understandable - if not correct - motivations. This is not an argument either of you can win. I personally think that the "pro-Loghain" camp is mostly wrong, but I can't definitively prove it, or anything.

EDIT: Changed some wording slightly in the first paragraph because my English is not so good.

[Elhanan]

.... I personally think that the "pro-Loghain" camp is mostly wrong, but I can't definitively prove it, or anything.

I can; witnessed it myself, and have the cut-scenes as evidence!

[Melbella]

Whether you believe that Loghain's decision to abandon the king and his men at Ostagar was militarily justifiable (and, to reiterate: I don't), you must also look to the other consequences of his actions. Loghain's army fled southern Ferelden and left the vast majority of the country wide open to the depredations of the darkspawn. Loghain's troops were nowhere to be found when the Blight wiped out Lothering; instead, he was pursuing a civil war against many of the bannorn as a direct consequence of what happened at Ostagar.

This, especially the bolded part. Even if Loghain thought Ostagar was a lost cause, why did he move his army all the way north to Denerim? Why not re-group, send word out to various lords, etc., that they lost Ostagar and needed more men, and then pick a better battlefield? Instead, like you say, he went back to Denerim and basically left the entire country to deal on their own. Blight or no, he knew darn well there was a huge darkspawn army on the way. Why is he not doing anything about it?

 

Another thing I never understood, which is not related to this directly but, why does Anora need a regent? It's not like she's a minor....

[ShadowLordXII]

Ostagar was a lost battle.

 

Retreating was arguably the smartest decision that Loghain ever made in the whole game.

[TotoroTori]

Ostagar was a lost battle.

 

Retreating was arguably the smartest decision that Loghain ever made in the whole game.

But why not just retreat to Loathering instead of Denerim, he could have let his daughter control the throne and he work on protecting Ferelden?

[Jaison1986]

Oh look, another Loghain thread! You hardly see those.

 

Well, lemme see, between charging his soldiers to help Cailan and then be doomed to be overwhelmed by the darkspawn army compared to just leaving and saving them to be used for another battle, what logic would dictate as smarter?

 

Never you mind that Cailan just ignored any advice that Loghain tried to give, and it was also Cailan who urged the grey wardens to fight at the frontlines. And Loghain not knowing about the grey wardens importance? Thank that to Duncan and his idiotic secrecy.

 

And Orlais is not an thing of the past like so many people would like to think. As we saw in the latest novels, Orlais nobles are just itching for an excuse to take Ferelden again. Loghain was very right on his paranoia about them.

 

So I don't believe leaving an king that was not worth the air he breathed to die makes Loghain an traitor, nor leaving an army that couldn't be saved.

[TotoroTori]

Oh I was waiting for one of those guys to come in!

 

Yes Cailan ignored Loghain's advice because, Calian probably wanted to be remember as something legendary like his father.

 

Yes Orlais is itching to take Ferelden again, but he didn't let the Orlaisian wardens come and help or Wardens anywhere! And I am pretty sure Loghain knew about the Grey Wardens, but Loghain thought it was a giant unusual hoard that he could outwit and that is wasn't a blight that idiotic Duncan believed it was and sensed it and was "This is more than likely a blight!"

[congokong]

Yet another Loghain thread... There was one of these threads just recently that hit like 75 pages.

 

http://forum.bioware...in-live-or-die/

 

Granted, there is plenty of blame to go around. Cailan was ignorant and itching for glory, Duncan and the Grey Wardens were fools for keeping their reason for being needed secret among other things, but Loghain was still wrong. He was guilty of:

 

1. Self-fulfilling prophecy at Ostagar

2. Acting under false premises

3. Bias from the war with Orlais

4. Vanity

5. Misusing what's "necessary"

 

1. Even if Ostagar was a doomed to failure, there's a difference between losing a battle and losing a war. Betraying the army opposing the darkspawn and sparking a civil war after crowning himself nearly cost Ferelden the war. Even if they lost at Ostagar at least the darkspawn would have been crippled rather than being allowed to march undeterred north. It's easy for Ostagar to be doomed to failure when Loghain commits self-fulfilling prophecy by turning down vital aid and trying to sabotage lighting the beacon for example. Sure, Orlais might be a threat in the future but you cross that bridge when you come to it. The priority is surviving the blight. If Loghain truly thought Ostagar was doomed he should have resigned as a general instead of jerking everyone around only to betray them; making matters worse.

 

2. Loghain was wrong about practically everything that he used to justify his ruthlessness. He was wrong about Orlais being the real threat, that the blight wasn't real, that only he could save Ferelden, and that the Grey Wardens weren't needed. If you're going to use "ends justify the means" logic, you better be damn sure that:

1. There is truly no better alternative

2. Your premises are correct

 

He may have thought his tyranny was in Ferelden's best interests but he was very wrong. Hitler thought he was doing what was best for Germany too yet few give him sympathy.

 

3. Once he was a good general but those days were long passed. His scars from Orlais caused him to be too biased to be level-headed as a general. Even if Cailan was too indifferent to Orlais, Loghain's hostility towards them would not ease relations or heal old wounds. But I think he spitefully wouldn't want those wounds healed. Cailan wanted Orlais to become friends while Loghain would never settle for anything more than unfriendly neighbors.

 

4. Loghain was a victim of tremendous pride; truly believing only he could save Ferelden. Even though Anora has a similar vanity, she sums her father up pretty well. "He believes he's the only one who can get us out of our current crisis even if it's one he helped engineer." There's no excuse for such false pride.

 

5. The list of Loghain's crimes in his coup and following civil war are long. He declared them "necessary" when they clearly weren't as evidenced by how he nearly destroyed the country. From orchestrating poisoning Arl Eamon even before his Ostagar betrayal to selling his own people into slavery to fund his civil war (ironic considering his feelings about Orlais), he was willing to do almost anything to stay in power. He even wouldn't take responsibility for his own actions and instead pinned Ostagar for example on the Grey Wardens and tried to exterminate them. I'd say it was at least partially self-preservation but also because of #2 and #4.

 

 

In conclusion, **** Loghain! I'm disgusted by how many people defend him.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Should Loghain have been focused on the immediate threat instead of the one that he was most concerned about? Because nobody else was doing that. Half of Fereldan (<-- figure of speech, I'm not claiming to know exactly how much of the country supported him or not) ignored the Blight in favor of a civil war for the throne. If the "right" thing for Loghain to have done was to trust any old fool that pledged him support in the Blight and worry about other problems later, why couldn't Loghain's countrymen do the same (follow Loghain and fight the Darkspawn now, worry about the throne later)?

 

Nobody just drops everything and joins in on a war freely. Everyone's got their own personal stake in the conflict at hand. That's why the success in war is determined by the events that take place afterwards, not how well you fought.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Loghain and his actions are one of the most contentious issues in all of the DA fandom. Entire phone books of words have been written fighting over the issue, but Congo gives a pretty good summation of the situation.

[Jaison1986]

Yet another Loghain thread... There was one of these threads just recently that hit like 75 pages.

 

http://forum.bioware...in-live-or-die/

 

Granted, there is plenty of blame to go around. Cailan was ignorant and itching for glory, Duncan and the Grey Wardens were fools for keeping their reason for being needed secret among other things, but Loghain was still wrong. He was guilty of:

 

1. Self-fulfilling prophecy at Ostagar

2. Acting under false premises

3. Bias from the war with Orlais

4. Vanity

5. Misusing what's "necessary"

 

1. Even if Ostagar was a doomed to failure, there's a difference between losing a battle and losing a war. Betraying the army opposing the darkspawn and sparking a civil war after crowning himself nearly cost Ferelden the war. Even if they lost at Ostagar at least the darkspawn would have been crippled rather than being allowed to march undeterred north. It's easy for Ostagar to be doomed to failure when Loghain commits self-fulfilling prophecy by turning down vital aid and trying to sabotage lighting the beacon for example. Sure, Orlais might be a threat in the future but you cross that bridge when you come to it. The priority is surviving the blight. If Loghain truly thought Ostagar was doomed he should have resigned as a general instead of jerking everyone around only to betray them; making matters worse.

 

2. Loghain was wrong about practically everything that he used to justify his ruthlessness. He was wrong about Orlais being the real threat, that the blight wasn't real, that only he could save Ferelden, and that the Grey Wardens weren't needed. If you're going to use "ends justify the means" logic, you better be damn sure that:

1. There is truly no better alternative

2. Your premises are correct

 

He may have thought his tyranny was in Ferelden's best interests but he was very wrong. Hitler thought he was doing what was best for Germany too yet few give him sympathy.

 

3. Once he was a good general but those days were long passed. His scars from Orlais caused him to be too biased to be level-headed as a general. Even if Cailan was too indifferent to Orlais, Loghain's hostility towards them would not ease relations or heal old wounds. But I think he spitefully wouldn't want those wounds healed. Cailan wanted Orlais to become friends while Loghain would never settle for anything more than unfriendly neighbors.

 

4. Loghain was a victim of tremendous pride; truly believing only he could save Ferelden. Even though Anora has a similar vanity, she sums her father up pretty well. "He believes he's the only one who can get us out of our current crisis even if it's one he helped engineer." There's no excuse for such false pride.

 

5. The list of Loghain's crimes in his coup and following civil war are long. He declared them "necessary" when they clearly weren't as evidenced by how he nearly destroyed the country. From orchestrating poisoning Arl Eamon even before his Ostagar betrayal to selling his own people into slavery to fund his civil war (ironic considering his feelings about Orlais), he was willing to do almost anything to stay in power. He even wouldn't take responsibility for his own actions and instead pinned Ostagar for example on the Grey Wardens and tried to exterminate them. I'd say it was at least partially self-preservation but also because of #2 and #4.

 

 

In conclusion, **** Loghain! I'm disgusted by how many people defend him.

 

1. For the last time, how is an retreat from an lost battle an betrayal? I wonder, if in Inquisition we were forced to leave our troops behind in an battle as the least costly option, would players be alright with everyone in the game calling them traitors for abandoning their soldiers? And it was the nobility that started the civil war, Loghain only concern was to rally them to stop the incoming darkspawn. 

 

2. No, he was right about Orlais being an threat. Celene is pretty much the only one holding the orlesians back from attacking Ferelden. And he was not the only one that thought the blight was not real, and perhaps he would understand the wardens importance better if Duncan was more honest about their necessity. It's not even so much about ending justifying the means, but about not being properly informed about certain things and have everyone around you fighting each other for petty goals. Like I said, Loghain didn't want an civil war.

 

3. Welp, I guess it's pretty easy to just say we should move on from the war with Orlais and start being friends with them, I mean, you weren't there when they raped the woman, killed farmers who couldn't pay taxes and brutalized the population. This notion is just as absurd as saying we should forgive Tevinter for what they did in the past and become best buddies with them now. Orlais is the most scumbag nation in all of Thedas only losing to Tevinter, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to be friends with them.

 

4. I would call that more of an delusion then pride, but I guess it's relative from an person to the other.

 

5. This discussion is about his actions during Ostagar, not after it.

 

So in my own humble conclusion, **** Cailan, **** Duncan, **** Alistair and **** Eamon. It's so easy to just put all the blame on Loghain for everything. We all need an scapegoat, right? Let's pat all our so called allies in the head, I mean, they clearly don't share blame or responsablity at all, right?

[Elhanan]

1 - Purposely quitting the field, and leaving those depending upon your arrival to die is betrayal, whether he and his men believe it or not. Ser Cauthrian seems to have doubts at the time, as do other witnesses such as Alistair, Wynne, Flemeth, Morrigan, Aveline, Carver, etc.

 

2 - Orlais is a possible threat, but fueling the flames of old hatred does nothing to quell them. Cailan, though naïve is wise enough to try diplomacy and other methods of tempering a peace. And being wrong in numbers does not help Loghain's cause, and his attempt to kill all the Wardens nearly lost Fereldon.

 

3 - No, trust should be earned, but refusing to speak with the Orlesians is certainly not the way to earn it, let alone allowing it to grow. Not asking them to be friends, but Loghain certainly botched his opportunity for them to ally against a common foe.

 

4 - Loghain was a victim of his own hatred, bigotry, and pride.

 

5 - No, this thread is about judging Loghain; even the Landsmeet is mentioned. Thus the on-going crimes, lies, and responsibility for those under his charge are valid, and on his head. Literally.

 

Believe Loghain is one of the greatest written examples of villainy I have seen. He believes he is right, and is in the right, but is both wrong and criminal.

[mrs_anomaly]

I just finished reading The Stolen Throne so Loghain in DAO seems to make even less sense than ever to me. I really love Loghain as a character. The first time I played DAO I hated him with a passion but then realizing everything about him I started to appreciate him. But he's much like Anders in that, while I adore his character, he made the wrong decision. He let his personal feeling about Orlais and Grey Wardens get in the way. If he was going to quit the field the way he did, he should have come clean to Cailan prior to action. Cailan, the dummy that he is, was relying on Loghain to come and save the day (much like Maric did quite frankly) and instead of just putting up with Loghain should have said "actually I'm not doing that, see you laters". He would have been punished- probably- but then the army would also be intact feasibly and also maybe Cailan would have taken him more seriously instead of enacting his hero fantasy. But then crisis would have been averted using some real communication and DAO would be much different 

 

The reason why Duncan (and the secrecy of the GW's is NOT Duncans decision or fault) doesn't just spill the beans on why it's necessary to have a GW kill the archdemon is because all of Ferelden is incredibly paranoid about anything relating to the use of blood, ie blood magic, and the GW's were already on thin ice having been kicked out of Fereldan 200 years ago for trying to complete a coup to replace the King. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

The reason why Duncan (and the secrecy of the GW's is NOT Duncans decision or fault) doesn't just spill the beans on why it's necessary to have a GW kill the archdemon is because all of Ferelden is incredibly paranoid about anything relating to the use of blood, ie blood magic, and the GW's were already on thin ice having been kicked out of Fereldan 200 years ago for trying to complete a coup to replace the King.

Actually, I think Duncan's secrecy is more of a Grey Warden SOP than a specific aversion to revealing the blood magic aspect of the joining, although that is a factor. It would very hard for Duncan to say, "I know this is a Blight because I can hear the Archdaemon in my dreams" without either sounding crazy or having to explain how he can do so, in which case people might decide he was crazy anyway (or part of an elaborate Orlesian plot in league with the Darkspawn, in Loghain's case). In either scenario, his credibility would be ruined and he might even be arrested and removed from his command. It was far better (for his credibility and maintaining Warden secrets) to simply say, "The Grey Wardens know the signs of a Blight and this is it" and hope the Grey Wardens reputation as the experts on Darkspawn and Blights would be sufficient to be believed. Were they in another country which did not have the same awkward history with the Wardens that Ferelden did, and were they not dealing with a senior military commander as paranoid and unco-operative as Loghain, Duncan might have been taken seriously and the whole mess been avoided.

In any case, I get the impression that the Grey Wardens just flat out don't reveal this info to anyone outside the order under any circumstances, and in the case of the means to kill an Archdaemon, probably don't even tell the junior members (like Alistair) until they have served for a certain amount of time or reached a certain rank. Add that to the general level of distrust towards the Wardens in Ferelden and by Loghain in particular, and you can kind of see why Duncan didn't lay all his cards on the table; first, because he probably wasn't allowed to, second because even if he had, it probably wouldn't have helped since people either wouldn't have believed him or thought he was crazy, and third because it would have unleashed a whole can of worms about the Grey Wardens liberal use of blood magic and consumption of Darkspawn taint, which could have ramifications for the whole order throughout Thedas if it got out. Since the Wardens are needed to defeat the Blight, and since Ostagar was looking increasingly like a loosing proposition, he had to consider the best interests of Thedas and the order as a whole over the interests of Ferelden alone.

[mrs_anomaly]

Actually, I think Duncan's secrecy is more of a Grey Warden SOP than a specific aversion to revealing the blood magic aspect of the joining, although that is a factor. It would very hard for Duncan to say, "I know this is a Blight because I can hear the Archdaemon in my dreams" without either sounding crazy or having to explain how he can do so, in which case people might decide he was crazy anyway (or part of an elaborate Orlesian plot in league with the Darkspawn, in Loghain's case). In either scenario, his credibility would be ruined and he might even be arrested and removed from his command. It was far better (for his credibility and maintaining Warden secrets) to simply say, "The Grey Wardens know the signs of a Blight and this is it" and hope the Grey Wardens reputation as the experts on Darkspawn and Blights would be sufficient to be believed. Were they in another country which did not have the same awkward history with the Wardens that Ferelden did, and were they not dealing with a senior military commander as paranoid and unco-operative as Loghain, Duncan might have been taken seriously and the whole mess been avoided.

In any case, I get the impression that the Grey Wardens just flat out don't reveal this info to anyone outside the order under any circumstances, and in the case of the means to kill an Archdaemon, probably don't even tell the junior members (like Alistair) until they have served for a certain amount of time or reached a certain rank. Add that to the general level of distrust towards the Wardens in Ferelden and by Loghain in particular, and you can kind of see why Duncan didn't lay all his cards on the table; first, because he probably wasn't allowed to, second because even if he had, it probably wouldn't have helped since people either wouldn't have believed him or thought he was crazy, and third because it would have unleashed a whole can of worms about the Grey Wardens liberal use of blood magic and consumption of Darkspawn taint, which could have ramifications for the whole order throughout Thedas if it got out. Since the Wardens are needed to defeat the Blight, and since Ostagar was looking increasingly like a loosing proposition, he had to consider the best interests of Thedas and the order as a whole over the interests of Ferelden alone.

 

Agreed on all of this except that people would think Duncan or Grey Wardens "crazy" for sensing darkspawn. It's an open secret that the GW's can sense darkspawn. I am currently reading through the books and I do believe I highlighted one of the conversations. 

 

Anything to do with blood other than talking about your own pedigree of fine blue blood is begging for a whole Chicken Little panic if you're in Ferelden. Also the taint- the GW's do not want to expose the fact that they are officially tainted. (Which if you think about it makes the title "Grey" pretty cool IMO). 

[Darkly Tranquil]

Agreed on all of this except that people would think Duncan or Grey Wardens "crazy" for sensing darkspawn. It's an open secret that the GW's can sense darkspawn. I am currently reading through the books and I do believe I highlighted one of the conversations. 
 
Anything to do with blood other than talking about your own pedigree of fine blue blood is begging for a whole Chicken Little panic if you're in Ferelden. Also the taint- the GW's do not want to expose the fact that they are officially tainted. (Which if you think about it makes the title "Grey" pretty cool IMO).

Sensing Darkspawn is one thing, but hearing the Archdaemon commanding the horde in your dreams is quite another. The point being that while the Grey Wardens having the ability is well known, they would be extremely keen to avoid encouraging others to delve into the "how" of the Grey Warden's abilities as it would raise too many awkward questions, which is why I think they simply use the blanket "secrets of the order" defence against all questions large and small. It may make them seem mysterious and untrustworthy to some, but it allows them to avoid having to reveal what they really do and deal with the difficult consequences of that. I see the Wardens attitude to their role and what they reveal to outsiders as being a bit like Jack Nicholson's character Col. Jessup in A Few Good Men, basically, "You can't handle the truth!" ("You" being the Chantry and the rest of the Andrastian nations).

I completely agree that part of the reason the Wardens keep their methods secret is because it would cause a major furore with the Chantry over the use of blood (its more the Chantry than Ferelden itself that has the big issue with anything blood related) but it would also seriously put off a lot of recruits if they knew all the downsides in advance and would force them to conscript more, which I don't think is their first choice; voluntary recruits tend to be more useful than unwilling ones. As for the name, I always interpreted that as being an oblique reference (by the writers) to the grey morality that the Wardens operate under.

[X Equestris]

This, especially the bolded part. Even if Loghain thought Ostagar was a lost cause, why did he move his army all the way north to Denerim? Why not re-group, send word out to various lords, etc., that they lost Ostagar and needed more men, and then pick a better battlefield? Instead, like you say, he went back to Denerim and basically left the entire country to deal on their own. Blight or no, he knew darn well there was a huge darkspawn army on the way. Why is he not doing anything about it?
 
Another thing I never understood, which is not related to this directly but, why does Anora need a regent? It's not like she's a minor....

Honestly, Ostagar was probably the best place in the south to fight the darkspawn. The darkspawn horde vastly outnumbered Ferelden's military, but Ostagar was in a controlling position, where darkspawn could be funneled in. Southern Ferelden doesn't have any other choke points that would prevent the darkspawn from enveloping a Fereldan force with their superior numbers.

[mrs_anomaly]

Sensing Darkspawn is one thing, but hearing the Archdaemon commanding the horde in your dreams is quite another. The point being that while the Grey Wardens having the ability is well known, they would be extremely keen to avoid encouraging others to delve into the "how" of the Grey Warden's abilities as it would raise too many awkward questions, which is why I think they simply use the blanket "secrets of the order" defence against all questions large and small. It may make them seem mysterious and untrustworthy to some, but it allows them to avoid having to reveal what they really do and deal with the difficult consequences of that. I see the Wardens attitude to their role and what they reveal to outsiders as being a bit like Jack Nicholson's character Col. Jessup in A Few Good Men, basically, "You can't handle the truth!" ("You" being the Chantry and the rest of the Andrastian nations).

I completely agree that part of the reason the Wardens keep their methods secret is because it would cause a major furore with the Chantry over the use of blood (its more the Chantry than Ferelden itself that has the big issue with anything blood related) but it would also seriously put off a lot of recruits if they knew all the downsides in advance and would force them to conscript more, which I don't think is their first choice; voluntary recruits tend to be more useful than unwilling ones. As for the name, I always interpreted that as being an oblique reference (by the writers) to the grey morality that the Wardens operate under.

 

Yes, Grey because of the fact that they are midway between white hat and black hat- and they consumed some of the darkness to become what they are. Here's another fun fact I learned from reading the books: not all Grey Wardens just die young or in their 40's like I assumed just based off of playing DAO and having Alistair dump me because I too am a GW. Some live to be old! That's canon. So I wish I could argue to Alistair that he's full of it when he dumps me LOL. 

[dhague]

I would argue that "Loghain's Betrayal" occurred before the battle, not during.  The valley forces had zero strategy and even worse tactics and consisted mostly of light and medium armor troops.  One flight of arrows, loose the dogs, and charge a much larger force?  And this is the plan of the "best general" in Ferelden?  With weeks to prepare: Where were the defensive ditches, traps, pitfalls, barracades, and pikemen?  And the "vanguard" is that part of an army that is sacrificed to give the main body time to prepare.  Sure, stick your critical elite troops (wardens) in the location with the highest attrition rate.  And make sure you have an inexperienced leader by telling Cailan that is is too dangerous for him to lead the valley forces (please don't throw me in that briar patch).  Just could not resist adding fuel to the fire!  And yes I am ignoring Duncan's failures in this post.

[Mike3207]

I put it all on Cailan,myself. It was his micromanagement of the battle that led to the army being destroyed, or nearly so. Loghain retreating when he did saved the army.

 

It's really more relevant the things he did after Ostagar.

[X Equestris]

I would argue that "Loghain's Betrayal" occurred before the battle, not during.  The valley forces had zero strategy and even worse tactics and consisted mostly of light and medium armor troops.  One flight of arrows, loose the dogs, and charge a much larger force?  And this is the plan of the "best general" in Ferelden?  With weeks to prepare: Where were the defensive ditches, traps, pitfalls, barracades, and pikemen?  And the "vanguard" is that part of an army that is sacrificed to give the main body time to prepare.  Sure, stick your critical elite troops (wardens) in the location with the highest attrition rate.  And make sure you have an inexperienced leader by telling Cailan that is is too dangerous for him to lead the valley forces (please don't throw me in that briar patch).  Just could not resist adding fuel to the fire!  And yes I am ignoring Duncan's failures in this post.

The strategy for the valley forces was likely Cailan's idea. He always seemed in love with the romantic ideas of war rather than the gritty details.

[Elhanan]

The strategy for the valley forces was likely Cailan's idea. He always seemed in love with the romantic ideas of war rather than the gritty details.

I have heard this before, but it was the strategies which bored Cailan as I recall, and he spent his time with the Warden's. No, I believe Loghain's failures were of his own making; Cailan was simply repeating what his mentor had instructed him earlier.

Personally, I hold that it was a sound plan, but that it underestimated the strength in numbers that were to appear.