310 réponses à ce sujet

[Klidi]

You know what the biggest indicator is that Loghain and Howe were not allied during any of the Cousland murdering bit? Howe doesn't say a damn word about it when you meet him in the dungeon. Howe would sneer about having the regent on his side and most probably, whatever his plans were to take care of the regent himself. Howe is the Bond villain who tells you all his plans before you kill him. But Howe never says a word about it. There's not a single mention of Loghain or any other shady partner in the notes you find in Amaranthine. Howe talks about how much he hates your father, not about expanding his own reach. Howe says, "I deserved better." Howe attacked the Couslands as part of his own petty revenge scheme. He hated Bryce, hated the power he had, and wanted it for himself. And that's it. (Also, plot device to get to Ostagar.)

 

If Bioware wanted us to believe that Howe and Loghain were entrenched in machinations prior to Ostagar, there would be no avoiding it. It would be about as subtle as getting slapped in the face with a dead fish. We would know because they would be talking about it, Howe would have mentioned it in a cutscene to Loghain at least once, and then most likely, as he was dying. Except, he says nothing.

 

Sorry, but that's just your interpretation of Howe character.

 

None of us can say what Howe would or should say, and none of us can say how Bioware should do their job. They don't say it bluntly, because they never do that in the game. Which is why their games are so great. But there are quite a few hints that they cooperated from the beginning.

 

And the petty revenge and hate of Couslands may be Howe's reasons for doing it. It still doesn't change the fact that his forces were supposed to go to Ostagar, but never got there and that Loghain didn't seem surprised when he heard about Couslands or that he didn't react in any way besides saying he was sure Cailan intended to fulfil his promise.

 

In other words, why Howe did it and how he achieved it are two different things.

[Merle McClure II]

dragonflight ... as I recall wherever Jowan may have been captured, it's stated that he was taken to Denerium. Also under your scenario when did Loghain have time to acquire this virtually uncurable poison? What about the Circle's help before Loghain's "second best buddy" decided to get a radical makeover? Why was Eamon dying in Redcliffe as opposed to Denerium since the nobles had to already be gathering for that first cut scene? And once again, why does the entire Redcliffe story arc play out as if the Warden had never before set foot there?  

[dragonflight288]

dragonflight ... as I recall wherever Jowan may have been captured, it's stated that he was taken to Denerium. Also under your scenario when did Loghain have time to acquire this virtually uncurable poison? What about the Circle's help before Loghain's "second best buddy" decided to get a radical makeover? Why was Eamon dying in Redcliffe as opposed to Denerium since the nobles had to already be gathering for that first cut scene? And once again, why does the entire Redcliffe story arc play out as if the Warden had never before set foot there?  

 

Okay, so Jowan was caught and taken to Denerim, which is where Loghain went after Ostagar. All that does is prove that it's impossible that Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar.

 

Not uncurable, most likely an obscure poison. If people don't know what causes the ailment, it'll be hard to give him the cure. Most thought him merely ill until much later. Loghain doesn't need to personally get the poison, and Jowan doesn't have to get it either. People of influence always have connections, shady or otherwise, and Anora most certainly has some, Howe most definitely would since Howe brought in the crows, and Howe ingratiated himself to Loghain as a way to improve his own standing, in my opinion. Being in Howe's dungeon, we don't need to ask where Loghain would get poison, we can instead ask where Howe would, and we know he hires the very criminal elements that should be arrested, extorts from the treasury, and grabs for power consistantly, he could easily have obtained poison for Eamon. 

 

I'm not saying this is what happened, but it makes sense. And since the game takes place over a year, a few weeks isn't out of the question.

 

This also implies a period of time passed before the Warden woke up. Could have been a week of swimming in and out of consciousness, which would be the amount of time it would take Loghain and his army to get to Denerim from Ostagar.

 

I mean, the Inquisitor in Inquisition was out for three days at the very beginning of the game, and was attended to by magic and alchemists, and we know that specific time frame because of the medical notes found throughout Haven, so it isn't out of the question to be out for a longer period of time for more grievous injuries. 

 

Then we can add in the demon's influence and keeping him trapped within the Fade, but alive as part of the deal with Connor, and that could easily have muddled things up even more regarding curing him.

 

At the point of the Landsmeet, it's possibe he wasn't comatose then, but merely getting under the weather while Jowan started tutoring Connor. 

 

This is all strictly speculation on my part, but it does make sense in the context of everything that happens in-game.

[Merle McClure II]

Hardly, all it actually proves is that Loghain was at Denerim during some point while Duncan was making his Thedas Famous Recruitment Tour, remember that we don't know how long Ostagar had actually been going on before Duncan made it back. We do know that at the very least he hit ... Redcliffe  / Highever / Denerim / Deep Roads / (Origin Story). Yes, that means that in the case of the City Elf & Human Noble Duncan actually backtracked and hit the same location twice, Dwarf Duster/Noble results in the shortest timeline as they overlap with him scouting the Deep Roads, while City Elf/Human Noble are actually somewhat silly with the rest falling somewhere in the middle. 

[Obadiah]

Found a pretty good image of Loghain and Cailin. Figured I'd just post it here.


By D39 on Tumblr

[dragonflight288]

Hardly, all it actually proves is that Loghain was at Denerim during some point while Duncan was making his Thedas Famous Recruitment Tour, remember that we don't know how long Ostagar had actually been going on before Duncan made it back. We do know that at the very least he hit ... Redcliffe  / Highever / Denerim / Deep Roads / (Origin Story). Yes, that means that in the case of the City Elf & Human Noble Duncan actually backtracked and hit the same location twice, Dwarf Duster/Noble results in the shortest timeline as they overlap with him scouting the Deep Roads, while City Elf/Human Noble are actually somewhat silly with the rest falling somewhere in the middle. 

 

Duncan recruits mage warden at the same time Jowan escapes. Duncan takes the mage Warden straight to Ostagar, where Loghain has been gathering an army to battle the darkspawn. We get there and they've been fighting for days, Loghain and Cailan have been arguing for days on whether or not Cailan should be on the front lines, glory and legends winning battles or, in actuality, do not, and whether or not to invite Orlais in. 

 

There is  no time to hire Jowan during this period. 

[Merle McClure II]

Just as there's no time for the entire poisoning arc to actually unfold as we know it does after Ostagar unless you choose to believe that the Warden was in a never mentioned coma for weeks and ignore the other temporal snarls that arise.

[dragonflight288]

Just as there's no time for the entire poisoning arc to actually unfold as we know it does after Ostagar unless you choose to believe that the Warden was in a never mentioned coma for weeks and ignore the other temporal snarls that arise.

 

Or had to travel through the wilds for weeks, or had to take the time to recover and thus moved slower or something. 

 

But it still makes more sense than saying Loghain chose an apprentice in the Circle while fighting at Ostagar, and then hired him in the dungeon before he escaped the Tower, and then presented him to Isolde as an apostate to tutor her son. 

 

Isolde: I trusted Loghain, why wouldn't I? How would I know the mage he sent would be a murderer?

[Merle McClure II]

Considering that we know Flemeth's hut has to be close to the main Ostagar camp and that we have Morrigan as a guide if anything the Warden's travel time is going to be faster then Loghain's. And if I remember correctly Morrigan mentions how close Lothering actually is. Spending weeks traveling through Darkspawn infested Wilds really doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.

 

 

Besides, Loghain choosing to hire Jowan at all doesn't make a whole lot of sense no matter how we look at it no matter what timeline we use ... hmm, unless Jowan was vouched for by someone. What other Bloodmage do we know that could have done that? (<== Not actually supported by in-game evidence.) 

 

And as I've said, there isn't anything that suggests Loghain wasn't in Denerin recruiting more men for Ostagar at the same time Duncan was sightseeing the entirely of Thedas ... Jowan got himself captured right away/hired/sent to Redcliffe ... Loghain beats Duncan to Ostagar as the latter has a history of dragging his heels. 

[dragonflight288]

Because dragging our heels during blights when we are the leader of the Grey Wardens makes perfect sense.......right?

 

And preparing an army to gather together and march is somehow faster than two men travelling together makes perfect sense.....right?

[Merle McClure II]

About as much sense as most of Duncan's recruitment tour OR the rest of the completely ignored travel times throughout the rest of the game.

[TEWR]

One thing I feel should be brought up is that dragonflight's idea on how long the Warden was out for after the events in Ishal isn't all that outrageous. Morrigan says your wounds were severe and they were so bad that Alistair thought you were dead for sure.

 

Even with magic, that doesn't mean you're going to be able to make an instant recovery.

 

I'd say the travel from Flemeth's Hut to Lothering is a full two days (which isn't a long travel time for an era such as this) given that refugees have been streaming into Lothering from the south for two days because they lost their homes. In addition, Sten was sent to investigate the Blight and camped with his comrades around Lake Calenhad, where he was taken by surprise. Now, if we assume the Qunari learned of it within the first three weeks that it was going on -- that is to say, when Duncan first gave the King the news -- through one of their spies, Sten would've been sent south in this time.

 

He then awoke in a farmhold somewhere near Lothering after he passed out, but without his sword. In his confusion and emotional turmoil, he killed them, but "waited several days" for the knights to arrive so he could surrender. He then went three weeks without food or water when he was in the cage.

 

So that's three weeks plus another three weeks. Month and a half.

 

Within that second three weeks we were out cold with severe injuries that made death seem likely. Indeed, recruiting Leliana has Morrigan wonder if "our skull was cracked worse then Mother [Flemeth] thought" -- a joke meant to indicate the silliness of what we're doing, yet the addition of Flemeth and worse indicates we did suffer such -- which means that was one of our injuries. So dragonflight's time estimate of a week isn't too bad.

 

If it takes us two days to travel to Lothering, I'd hazard a guess it would take Loghain maybe five days to a week for him to get to Denerim, where at this time of the year (late fall/early winter, as soldiers at Ostagar remark on how it's getting colder) the Landsmeet is going to happen. He'd have a headstart over us as well.

 

however, we'd also have to account for the time frame it would take Duncan to travel from individual areas. If he recruits a DN, chances are the Deep Roads will exit somewhere near the base of the Frostbacks. I imagine they'd take Sulcher's Pass which, though dangerous, shaves a full two days off the journey into Orlais compared to Gherlen's Pass. As Sulcher's Pass can head through Redcliffe, this would allow him to head there and see Eamon and find him well.

 

From there, it's perhaps 3 days max to Ostagar.

 

So let's see

 

first 3 weeks - Battling the Blight at Ostagar. I suppose by Cailan's smile at Duncan being there that Duncan was never at Ostagar to begin with during these 3 weeks, but rather sent his recruits on ahead without him.

 

two days maybe for SP, then three days for Redcliffe to Ostagar, followed by one day for the battle itself.

 

This leads to a week of unconsciousness for Flemeth's hut and then two days travel to Lothering. Within that week Loghain meets with Jowan in Denerim and when we arrive in Lothering on the 2nd day of travel (or just shy of it for the Dog encounter) he makes his statements in the Landsmeet.

 

Jowan's then in Redcliffe where he tries to tutor Connor (he says he didn't teach him much) but also poisons Eamon. Eamon falls gravely ill where he clamors for water more and more, Connor succumbs to the Desire Demon's offer, etc.

 

I dunno. There is information in the game to make a timeline of events that works, but with Bioware having gone "one whole year" things get screwy and far too condensed. It's better to work out if we say 2 years, or 18 months minimum.

 

 

 

What other Bloodmage do we know that could have done that? (<== Not actually supported by in-game evidence.)

 

 

I hadn't considered that actually. It's always been my belief that Uldred led Jowan to blood magic covertly using the latter's jealousy towards Amell/Surana and then ratted him out (that theory at least has some evidence behind it), but Uldred telling Loghain about Jowan would make a lot of sense and support just how the Teyrn used him, more then just a chance encounter with him after he was caught and then brought to Denerim.

 

Uldred would've mentioned it and Loghain would've had soldiers patrol the roads for him after Ostagar failed, especially with word that Isolde was seeking a tutor for her son (and Loghain himself believes Jowan couldn't have gone in there so easily if Eamon was truly unaware, that Eamon had to have known Connor was a mage given who he is) and tried to deal with it then.

 

That actually helps settle the timeline issue and supports post-Ostagar. Granted, as you said there's no in-game evidence to support it, but it would work in a neater fashion then just "Take our word that Loghain's men got lucky"

[nbberm2]

I've been reading a lot of these arguments over the years but never pitched in much. I kind of assumed the general assumption was yes he betrayed his king.
Having just replayed the game recently, I noticed a couple of things, and these are both open to interpretation I suppose.

First, as a HN, if you go to talk to Loghain at his tent, you can mention the attack on Highever. He says something to the effect of "I'm sure Cailain has every intention of keeping his word" (Referring to bringing Howe to justice). To me, it seems he's basically saying, "Well I'm sure he intends to do that, But I doubt he'll get the opportunity."

Again, pure speculation there, but it also makes it odd that upon returning to Denerim, he joins up with Howe and even gives him additional titles. Knowing what Howe did and still partnering up with him shows that Loghain is not afraid of doing some shady stuff to gain control over fereldans armies.

And it may just have been me, but during the battle's cutscene, after lighting the beacon, Loghain appears to have a smirk on his face as he tells (is that Cauthrian or however you spell it?) to sound the retreat.

Again, those two can be interpreted different ways, but those, in addition to all the bad stuff he does following Ostagar makes him a royal ***hole in my opinion. The only way I can even remotely justify letting him live is the thought of him making the US. But that, ironically enough makes him a hero still, not to mention as little as I like Alistair, its hard to do that to him. It'd be like Alistair telling you to let Howe live (assuming you're a HN) because he'd make a good Warden.

[Mike3207]

Again, those two can be interpreted different ways, but those, in addition to all the bad stuff he does following Ostagar makes him a royal ***hole in my opinion. The only way I can even remotely justify letting him live is the thought of him making the US. But that, ironically enough makes him a hero still, not to mention as little as I like Alistair, its hard to do that to him. It'd be like Alistair telling you to let Howe live (assuming you're a HN) because he'd make a good Warden.

I'd be OK with making Howe a Warden-if there weren't better candidates to choose from when you choose your one Warden. It's really the limitation of having only one warden that really guarantee's Howe's death. It's sort of similar to killing Cauthrien since you can't make her a Warden either.

[nbberm2]

Personally I dislike killing Cauthrien. But at that point in the story, if she's gonna be that fanatical about Loghain to attack us in the chamber right outside of the landsmeet... Sorry lady, I have business to tend to.

But Howe would make a horrible Warden. Greedy, sniveling, little snake that he is lol. I'd imagine him going like Ser Jory.

[springacres]

Personally I dislike killing Cauthrien. But at that point in the story, if she's gonna be that fanatical about Loghain to attack us in the chamber right outside of the landsmeet... Sorry lady, I have business to tend to.

But Howe would make a horrible Warden. Greedy, sniveling, little snake that he is lol. I'd imagine him going like Ser Jory.

You never tried to talk Cauthrien out of attacking you?

 

And I can't see Howe going quite like Ser Jory.  I doubt he would give anyone the satisfaction of watching him snivel like a coward.

[nbberm2]

I have with her, but after a couple pts, I stopped even attempting to. I might on this pt though since it's been awhile

[Althix]

btw

 

i have a question to ask - will you guys consider it valid, to place equal sign between Loghain and Isabela, or is it correct to draw a parallel between these two?

[Xetykins]

btw
 
i have a question to ask - will you guys consider it valid, to place equal sign between Loghain and Isabela, or is it correct to draw a parallel between these two?

Equal. But Isabela is funny.

[springacres]

I have with her, but after a couple pts, I stopped even attempting to. I might on this pt though since it's been awhile

It probably helps to have a couple points in Coercion.  I'm not sure what level you need exactly (I try to get my charries at least 2-3 points by the Landsmeet) but it's definitely possible to persuade her to stand aside.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

i have a question to ask - will you guys consider it valid, to place equal sign between Loghain and Isabela, or is it correct to draw a parallel between these two?

While Loghain committed horrible atrocities that make him look rather Orlesian, and allowed Howe to do yet more, he was at least doing so because he thought his country needed him to. Isabela was just selfish.

[sylvanaerie]

btw

 

i have a question to ask - will you guys consider it valid, to place equal sign between Loghain and Isabela, or is it correct to draw a parallel between these two?

 

 

While Loghain committed horrible atrocities that make him look rather Orlesian, and allowed Howe to do yet more, he was at least doing so because he thought his country needed him to. Isabela was just selfish.

 

Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges, or trying to absolve one atrocity by pointing out someone else 'did something worse'.  The road to hell is paved with 'good intentions' and Loghain's was made out of pride's golden asphalt.

 

Ultimately, I don't think their victims gave a damn why they got hosed over, only that they got hosed over.  His pride vs her selfishness is hardly an absolution for either of their actions.  Both were wrong.

[Jaison1986]

Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges, or trying to absolve one atrocity by pointing out someone else 'did something worse'.  The road to hell is paved with 'good intentions' and Loghain's was made out of pride's golden asphalt.

 

Ultimately, I don't think their victims gave a damn why they got hosed over, only that they got hosed over.  His pride vs her selfishness is hardly an absolution for either of their actions.  Both were wrong.

 

At least you don't put neither on the pedestal. Most of the fandom handwave Isabela crimes while they condemn Loghain, And that's pretty annoying. One thing I can say is that Loghain fights with tooth and nails for his redemption, while Isabela just runs from her actions.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges, or trying to absolve one atrocity by pointing out someone else 'did something worse'.  The road to hell is paved with 'good intentions' and Loghain's was made out of pride's golden asphalt.

 

Ultimately, I don't think their victims gave a damn why they got hosed over, only that they got hosed over.  His pride vs her selfishness is hardly an absolution for either of their actions.  Both were wrong.

I don't see how saying that Loghain had better motives is trying to absolve him. Just because Isabela's arguably worse doesn't mean he gets a pass.

[Monica21]

I've been reading a lot of these arguments over the years but never pitched in much. I kind of assumed the general assumption was yes he betrayed his king.
Having just replayed the game recently, I noticed a couple of things, and these are both open to interpretation I suppose.

First, as a HN, if you go to talk to Loghain at his tent, you can mention the attack on Highever. He says something to the effect of "I'm sure Cailain has every intention of keeping his word" (Referring to bringing Howe to justice). To me, it seems he's basically saying, "Well I'm sure he intends to do that, But I doubt he'll get the opportunity."

Again, pure speculation there, but it also makes it odd that upon returning to Denerim, he joins up with Howe and even gives him additional titles. Knowing what Howe did and still partnering up with him shows that Loghain is not afraid of doing some shady stuff to gain control over fereldans armies.

And it may just have been me, but during the battle's cutscene, after lighting the beacon, Loghain appears to have a smirk on his face as he tells (is that Cauthrian or however you spell it?) to sound the retreat.

Again, those two can be interpreted different ways, but those, in addition to all the bad stuff he does following Ostagar makes him a royal ***hole in my opinion. The only way I can even remotely justify letting him live is the thought of him making the US. But that, ironically enough makes him a hero still, not to mention as little as I like Alistair, its hard to do that to him. It'd be like Alistair telling you to let Howe live (assuming you're a HN) because he'd make a good Warden.

 

Yep, all speculation. And this is why I like Solas.

 

http://youtu.be/56vZslmhFHU?t=2m51s