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Loghain's betrayal


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#301
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Though your punishment may not be as severe since Irving is taking responsibility for your actions. 

 

Probably will end up facing solitary confinement or having privileges removed or something. Gregoire is not a harsh or unreasonable man (even though putting Anders into a whole year of solitary confinement is taking things a bit too far in my opinion. It's very difficult to come out of that completely sane, if it's possible at all.)

I'd been under the impression that he was just dropping it, especially in retrospect after my third mage actually helped Jowan rather than betraying him. Gregoir makes very plain that a Warden who didn't betray Jowan is in hot water; that my other two mages received no such threats (so far as I can remember) seems to indicate that Gregoir recognizes that what they did was at least partially an attempt to help him do his job.



#302
Elhanan

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Joining the Wardens isn't exactly a pardon. It's a death sentence. Either you die in the joining or slowly from the taint, or in battle with the darkspawn, but it is a death sentence. All Wardens are doomed to a short life, constant connection to the darkspawn, and will end up like Laraius in Legacy. And all Wardens will ultimately end up in the same place. In the Deep Roads because the blighted blood calls to the darkspawn. It isn't an honor as Alistair believes it is.
 
Duncan was a convicted murderer when he was conscripted, and the person who conscripted him actually was hoping he'd die in the joining. 
 
Daveth was a thief and a pickpocket, and was going to be strung up by the guards if Duncan hadn't conscripted him. 
 
Nearly all the Wardens join or get conscripted as criminals. The Dwarven noble is convicted (without a trial) of fratricide. The Casteless broke all the sacred traditions of the proving and was a criminal of the highest order, also part of the carta, and faced execution if it weren't for Duncan. The mage faces Aeonar, tranquility or death for helping Jowan. The City Elf kills a bunch of guards and possibly the bann's own son.


Everyone is under a death sentence; the Warden simply knows that it will be at 30 yrs or less. Then there is Fiona; don't know much about her, but she seems to be doing OK. And the Wardens are hailed as heroes as a rule; not the mantle some might wish to place on a murderer.

Still, it depends on the Warden. Some of my characters that might have foresight would rather offer Loghain to the Archdemon and save themselves, Alistair, and Anora for the good of all. But mostly I kill him myself.

#303
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Everyone is under a death sentence; the Warden simply knows that it will be at 30 yrs or less. Then there is Fiona; don't know much about her, but she seems to be doing OK. And the Wardens are hailed as heroes as a rule; not the mantle some might wish to place on a murderer.

Calling Loghain a murderer over Ostagar is fairly questionable. As for placing the mantle of hero on a murderer, that is to a large degree what the Wardens do. I am under the impression that Alistair is an exception as far as Warden backstories; Loghain and Duncan are the rule. Or if not, Duncan is still a Warden.

 

As for Fiona, she's not a Warden anymore. She had the Taint removed due to some weirdness with the Architect's magic. They tried to put her through the Joining again and her body ignored it. The Wardens should have kept her, since immunity to the Taint is in some ways more useful than mastery of it, but they instead sent her back to the Circle.



#304
Elhanan

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Calling Loghain a murderer over Ostagar is fairly questionable. As for placing the mantle of hero on a murderer, that is to a large degree what the Wardens do. I am under the impression that Alistair is an exception as far as Warden backstories; Loghain and Duncan are the rule. Or if not, Duncan is still a Warden.
 
As for Fiona, she's not a Warden anymore. She had the Taint removed due to some weirdness with the Architect's magic. They tried to put her through the Joining again and her body ignored it. The Wardens should have kept her, since immunity to the Taint is in some ways more useful than mastery of it, but they instead sent her back to the Circle.


Loghain may be called a murderer for varied deaths, but Alistair is fairly consistent at holding Loghain responsible for the death of Duncan and his brother through the events of the story whether or not the Warden supports it. And it is his POV that is being referenced at the Landsmeet outburst.

And a few of my Wardens did not die, at least by the Calling. Ashes, pickpockets, and magic can go a long way to solve certain problems. ;)

#305
Chashan

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I'd been under the impression that he was just dropping it, especially in retrospect after my third mage actually helped Jowan rather than betraying him. Gregoir makes very plain that a Warden who didn't betray Jowan is in hot water; that my other two mages received no such threats (so far as I can remember) seems to indicate that Gregoir recognizes that what they did was at least partially an attempt to help him do his job.

 

Playing the Origin recently, I got to say no, Gregoir is about equally as outraged at Irving as he is at the mage-PC. That's his reaction right there on the scene, anyway, haven't pushed that playthrough far enough to have revisited the Circle again yet to see whether he changes his tune by then.

 

On a somewhat unrelated note: looking at that entire episode, I suppose BW indulged in portraying mage-leaders as overly foolish as early as this Origin-story. As I played my PC as someone totes fine with the system as is, I had no trouble having her follow Irving's orders on the matter of posing as an accomplice to Jowan's scheme of escape - however trite and childish Irving's motivation of 'getting back at the Chantry' may be. For him to then, essentially, throw the PC under the bus and have her carted off with Duncan I see as quite a dick move by him.

Once my PC returns to the Circle, this certainly makes for a more...interesting prospect than I anticipated starting this playthrough, at any rate. Recruiting the Templar chapter rather than the backstabbing bunch of mages looks quite a bit more attractive this way.
 



#306
dragonflight288

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Everyone is under a death sentence; the Warden simply knows that it will be at 30 yrs or less. Then there is Fiona; don't know much about her, but she seems to be doing OK. And the Wardens are hailed as heroes as a rule; not the mantle some might wish to place on a murderer.

Still, it depends on the Warden. Some of my characters that might have foresight would rather offer Loghain to the Archdemon and save themselves, Alistair, and Anora for the good of all. But mostly I kill him myself.

 

Fiona was cured of the taint in the book "The Calling" thanks to some freaky magic on the part of the Architect, and her own codex in Inquisition says she couldn't get retainted as a Warden and ended up kicked out. 

 

And far be it from me to tell you how you should enjoy your game you spent money purchasing and time playing. I'm just hoping that I help broaden some people's perspectives.

 

It wasn't that long ago when I was a die-hard "Loghain must die" person, but one of my latest playthroughs where I spared him, took the time to talk to him, took him to Ostagar in the Return to Ostagar DLC, and really applied some critical thought to the situation at Ostagar, I came to the conclusion he isn't as guilty as I once thought him. 



#307
Elhanan

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Fiona was cured of the taint in the book "The Calling" thanks to some freaky magic on the part of the Architect, and her own codex in Inquisition says she couldn't get retainted as a Warden and ended up kicked out. 
 
And far be it from me to tell you how you should enjoy your game you spent money purchasing and time playing. I'm just hoping that I help broaden some people's perspectives.
 
It wasn't that long ago when I was a die-hard "Loghain must die" person, but one of my latest playthroughs where I spared him, took the time to talk to him, took him to Ostagar in the Return to Ostagar DLC, and really applied some critical thought to the situation at Ostagar, I came to the conclusion he isn't as guilty as I once thought him.


I also recommend saving Loghain at least once for further details, but this does not alleviate his responsibility for allowing Arl Howe to perform such atrocities, and listening to his vile advice.

#308
dragonflight288

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I also recommend saving Loghain at least once for further details, but this does not alleviate his responsibility for allowing Arl Howe to perform such atrocities, and listening to his vile advice.

 

That begs the question whether Loghain actually knew about what Howe was doing in Denerim because Loghain was out with his army pretty much the whole time, if you listen to the gossipers and the rumors from Bodahn or inn keepers. And the only bit of advice I saw Howe give Loghain in-game that Loghain followed up on was the use of the Antivan Crows. 

 

There is a rather distinct lack of in-game proof that Loghain even knew about Howe's atrocities. Bring it up at the Landsmeet and he rightly brings up that Howe's actions are his own and cannot be pinned on him. Not without proof that he was complicit or knew of it. 

 

And TEWR brought up a good point about how Howe (lol, unintentional pun) controlled the entire north of Ferelden, its supply routes (even from Kirkwall as we find out in DA2), had a large force of arms, and opposing Howe would mean fighting a war on two fronts and being completely surrounded. 

 

For me, Loghain is guilty of many things, selling elves into slavery, hiring a blood mage to poison another noble and hiring the Antivan Crows to assassinate the protagonist. When I discuss Loghain with people, and they want him executed for these things, I can see where they come from and why and won't even try debating it because I think people who are slavers should be punished to the full extent of the law no matter their position, and despite what the developers said about the poison being non-lethal for Eamon, if someone just plays the game and didn't pay attention to the devs comments they would have no idea about that. But when it comes to Ostagar, how much he knew about Howe's dealings, or his alliance with Uldred, that's where I think things turn into shades of grey.

 

On Ostagar itself, I agree with his assessment of the battle. It could not be won, and he tried to save as many men as he could so he could continue the fight another day. He then tried to rebuild the army as quickly as possible and take the fight back to the darkspawn, but his lack of political tact and his abrasive personality threw off the nobles, not to mention Teagan's well-intentioned but horrible use (and understanding of Loghain's motivations) helped incite other nobles to turn against him, not to mention the nobles who wanted to take advantage of the power vacuum, and I blame the other nobles more than I blame Loghain, without withholding his own fault in that political screw up for the civil war itself. 

 

On the issue of his alliance with Howe, and Howe's actions, I hold Howe to be far more responsible for what was going on than Loghain. Howe played Loghain like a fiddle, seized so much power that it became disadvantageous to oppose him, and since Loghain was out with the army, he couldn't pay attention to all the little details that Howe was doing. He was likely focusing more on troop movements, tactics, and defeating those who opposed him (the idealistic nobles) or Anora (the ones taking advantage of the power vacuum).

 

Although to be fair, Loghain has less credibility if the Warden is a Cousland who outright tells him of Howe's treachery, most of my Wardens are not, so I don't see how Loghain would know about Howe beyond him being unpleasant, as per Howe's own personal codex. 

 

As for his alliance with Uldred, I don't blame Loghain one bit for how things turned out at the Circle. He wasn't even involved with what happened. He offered an alliance with Uldred, more autonomy to the Circle if the Circle cooperated, Wynne came back and told Irving about Loghain's retreat, and Uldred panicked when the other mages weren't going along with what he wanted and led a revolution on his own, and ended up becoming an abomination in his panic, which is what Nial says happens if you talk to him more than you have to in the Fade sequence. 

 

That is my personal take on Loghain. He is guilty of some things, and if you roleplay a Warden, or as a gamer oppose those things and feel he deserves death, more power to you. But it is also my opinion that blaming him for things he wasn't part of, and to the (occasional) posters who take defending his retreat at Ostagar to also mean defending everything about him is just taking their dislike of him way overboard. 

 

I also don't see how joining the Wardens is the honor Alistair believes it is. I mean, sure I can see why people would see it that way, and would see Wardens as heroes, but Warden are also ruthless and do pretty extreme things in the name of stopping the blight, which is something even Alistair mentions if you talk to him at Ostagar before returning to Duncan to go into the Wilds. 

 

This post was a bit longer than what I initially intended, but that's how I see things. 


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#309
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Playing the Origin recently, I got to say no, Gregoir is about equally as outraged at Irving as he is at the mage-PC. That's his reaction right there on the scene, anyway, haven't pushed that playthrough far enough to have revisited the Circle again yet to see whether he changes his tune by then.

 

On a somewhat unrelated note: looking at that entire episode, I suppose BW indulged in portraying mage-leaders as overly foolish as early as this Origin-story. As I played my PC as someone totes fine with the system as is, I had no trouble having her follow Irving's orders on the matter of posing as an accomplice to Jowan's scheme of escape - however trite and childish Irving's motivation of 'getting back at the Chantry' may be. For him to then, essentially, throw the PC under the bus and have her carted off with Duncan I see as quite a dick move by him.

Once my PC returns to the Circle, this certainly makes for a more...interesting prospect than I anticipated starting this playthrough, at any rate. Recruiting the Templar chapter rather than the backstabbing bunch of mages looks quite a bit more attractive this way.
 

Having rewatched the scene, Gregoir certainly wants to punish the PC who betrayed Jowan, but he has Irving in his way and seems disinclined to simply ignore Irving's objections (which he could probably get away with.) Compare that with the scene where you legitimately tried to help Jowan, so that you can see what it looks like when Gregoir really wants to punish you and doesn't have Irving standing in his way.


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#310
NaclynE

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Well frankly after giving it some though I feel in a way Logain did the right thing about retreating from Ostagar after gathering a-lot of information from playing Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age Inquisition. I do agree about what Logain said in DAO that King Calen was unprepared for the battle at Ostagar and his men was unexperienced (quoted by Logain himself if your social tree is upgraded). Despite how Duncan felt Logain knew they were going to fight a losing battle and not be able to drive off the dark spawn so he retreated. I feel like if Logain did not retreat his army would of been wiped out, he would of been killed, and Allora would of lead Ferelden with no army. Sure the Arl of Redcliff was still around but I doubt just his army alone would of been efficient to rule without the combination of Logain's remnants/army (if DAO killed Logain or not) If Logain didn't temporarily take over.

 

Sure Logain did alot of things wrong after taking the throne but the way I look at it is if he didn't temporarily take over the darkspawn could of crushed Denerim easily since Denerim would of had no army to semi protect it.  



#311
Xetykins

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