I believe his retreat at Ostagar to be fully justified.
Everything after that, however.....some of it can be explained and a lot is unjustifiable. Loghain was ultimately wrong as he saw a larger threat from Orlais than the darkspawn as he, and pretty much nearly everyone else save the members of our party, did not truly believe it was a Blight.
The threat of Orlais, however, was distant, and as Cailan put it, "a thing of the past."
Gotta say, the nobles who owned land in Ferelden are still alive, mostly. They're still very grumpy about it all, I imagine, so it's not going to be over for a while now. Orlais wasn't a threat this time, and even it was it'd probably pale to a Blight, but it's really still not that distant. People seem to think the Orlesian occupation was some long-ago war, but Orlesians and Fereldeners born outside of it will be just shy of 30. There's no immediate threat that Orlais could come storming in at any time anymore, but even now nobles are bickering over "lost land" (King Alistair makes mention of it no less in DA2). Combine this with Orlais having a history of imperialism, and actually pulling the "sure, we'll send troops to help you -- okay, now we're not leaving! :D" trick on Nevarra. If being wary of Orlais is paranoia, it's a paranoia with some pretty clear justifications.
We know that Orlais wasn't planning on invading. We know that Celene probably wasn't going to do that, and we know she actually already had an alternate method of getting Ferelden in hand. Loghain was wrong in stopping them, and his plans to split the army to fight a war on two fronts (when one front was coming to help) was only going to lead to more loss. But it's hardly sheer insanity and prejudice behind his decision. Orlais/Ferelden tension is very far from being in the past.
I have heard this before, but it was the strategies which bored Cailan as I recall, and he spent his time with the Warden's. No, I believe Loghain's failures were of his own making; Cailan was simply repeating what his mentor had instructed him earlier.Personally, I hold that it was a sound plan, but that it underestimated the strength in numbers that were to appear.
Or it could be bad writing of a military plot, which happens a lot if the writers aren't intimately familiar with the tactics and strategies that would be used in the setting they are writing. Against a human army, the battle plan might have worked. Against the far more numerous darkspawn horde, it probably would have resulted in the complete destruction of the force at Ostagar, instead of only half.
It largely depends on when Logain knew what.
We know:
1) the battle at Ostagar is not winnable. The head guy said so!
2) Grey Warden's are required to end the Blight
3) Logain made a crown for himself
4) Cailin was corresponding with Orlais.
To point one, the question revolves around when Logain determined that their forces could not win. In an era when military commanders worked largely based on estimates, I don't think the Fereldan forces could really have known just how large the Darkspawn force was.
If Logain knew before the battle, then he is a regicide and a traitor. A Usurper and betrayer of Fereldan. It was his plan, and he knew of the king's behavior and tendency to be on the front lines. He wanted Cailin on the front lines, and got exactly what he wanted.
If Logain suspected Cailin was corresponding with Orlais and wanted to prevent any possible union with Orlais, then he is everything above but with some possible justification other than greed and pride.
If Logain didn't realize how large the force arrayed against them was, and not until the battle commenced truly understood how large the darkspawn horde was, then he is merely an opportunistic sociopath who felt justified rewriting events to suit him.
2) To my knowledge, we do not know if Logain was aware of the importance of Wardens. Most of the evidence suggests he didn't, but we don't know for sure. You can't really blame the man if he didn't know of the importance of wardens.
3) is pretty damming in my eyes. Regents don't need crowns, nor is it appropriate for them to wear them. Either Logain just says "You know, I'd like to be king" or he planned to betray Cailin all along.
To keep this fairly short. IMO Logain was a dirty traitor, who plotted to leave the king for dead. His actions threatened the entirety of Ferelden and he should only be allowed to survive the Landsmeet if you intend to sacrifice him to kill the Archdeamon. The evidence suggests that he was planning to remove rivals and the king should the opportunity arise. His goal was to be king, and he would be king even if the consequence was being the king of a dying, blighted land.
May I direct you to Eirene's Ostagar military decisions thread? The only wall of text that I didn't lose interest in half way thru. (apologies to the other wall-texters).
I always felt that Loghain could have at least committed his men to save his king and help him escape. That's not to say Cailan is more to blame for his own demise. Still, Loghain should serve his king no matter how much of an idiot he could be.
I always felt that Loghain could have at least committed his men to save his king and help him escape. That's not to say Cailan is more to blame for his own demise. Still, Loghain should serve his king no matter how much of an idiot he could be.
Save him? In the thick of the battle? Loghain would have just wasted his soldiers. King is just an title, and I think Cailan never lived it up to it.
Save him? In the thick of the battle? Loghain would have just wasted his soldiers. King is just an title, and I think Cailan never lived it up to it.
When should someone save someone? perhaps it should be scheduled. Last I checked, a lord swears fealty to their king. Anything short of loyalty could be seen as traitorous. It does not look good to return home unscathed with all of your men when your King lies dead.
For better or for worse, Loghain has always been loyal to Ferelden and not its king. Last time he lost a battle to save a king, after all, the king got pissy with him and demanded he swear not to put one man over Ferelden again (The Stolen Throne). Granted, letting Cailan die had far more far-reaching consequences than simply costing Cailan his life, but it's not as if Loghain can see the future and hopelessly sacrificing the army for a battle they could then lose has far more direct implications.
I doubt Loghain could've dispatched anyone to actually save Cailan, even if he could win the battle. Dude's on the frontlines of a battle cluttered with thousands of darkspawn and other soldiers, and while he may have glittery armour the army could arrive just in time to see his corpse rotting on the ground.
When should someone save someone? perhaps it should be scheduled. Last I checked, a lord swears fealty to their king. Anything short of loyalty could be seen as traitorous. It does not look good to return home unscathed with all of your men when your King lies dead.
Outdated traditions. In my opinion, loyalty is earned, not granted. Not too different when the people of Ferelden started to think king Arland was unfit to be king and wanted to depose of him. While Cailan was not an Tyrant, he was very weak and unfit for the position, and not worth the loyalty of the people.
Outdated traditions. In my opinion, loyalty is earned, not granted. Not too different when the people of Ferelden started to think king Arland was unfit to be king and wanted to depose of him. While Cailan was not an Tyrant, he was very weak and unfit for the position, and not worth the loyalty of the people.
No argument from me on that. In fact, we actually agree. I am stating that Loghain is a traitor (to the crown) and you give a reason for his decision. so I don't know what we are arguing about? are we arguing? haha. Also, a rebellion usually starts with traitors and before you know it, they are rebels.
No argument from me on that. In fact, we actually agree. I am stating that Loghain is a traitor (to the crown) and you give a reason for his decision. so I don't know what we are arguing about? are we arguing? haha. Also, a rebellion usually starts with traitors and before you know it, they are rebels.
I suppose we were arguing wereas Loghain was an traitor or not? I guess in the general sense what he did was an betrayal. But in my personal opinion, Loghain was not an traitor because I think Cailan wasn't worth saving.
So if someone determines that their leader is not fit, leaving them to die on the field of battle is justified? Does not sound right to me. It actually sounds homicidal. And if Cailan is not seen as fit, this does not speak so well of the one instructing and training him for the position.
And we have conflicting views as to whether the battle at Ostagar was winnable. The surviving key keeper who failed and fled states that it was a loss, as well as some of Loghain's men. However, Alistair states that Cailan was doing well. We also have the testimony of the Noble found in Howe's dungeon that knew of one that witnessed it as desertion, and was killed for that POV, and the Noble informed was imprisoned and tortured. And the witnesses Wynne, Aveline, Carver, Flemeth, and Morrigan are in agreement against Loghain; possibly others.
For me, it is not so cut and dry, but I do know that Loghain left before discovering if success was possible.
It is justified. You are making needless sacrifices for an person not worth the trouble. Otherwise, you just allow an blind sense of loyalty to cloud your better judgment. Well, I have no idea who trained Cailan, but making him king was an bad idea in itself, since they mostly did it because he was an Theirin, rather then, IDK, an good ruler?
Well considering that when we go to the deep roads and still see massive legions of darkspawn marching their way to the surface, I doubt the number of soldiers at Ostagar would make any difference, not to mention the wardens would likely be slain before the archdemon decides to pop out.
I suppose we were arguing wereas Loghain was an traitor or not? I guess in the general sense what he did was an betrayal. But in my personal opinion, Loghain was not an traitor because I think Cailan wasn't worth saving.
oh, I totally see Loghain's point of view and I don't see him as a bad guy. He is just misguided in my opinion. Misguided in the sense of what happens after Ostagar. He has little skill in politics employing Howe of all people to do his politicking and could not foresee how much support Cailan actualy has from the nobles. He knows he made the wrong decision (in hindsight) in his wanting to do the US to redeem himself.
It is justified. You are making needless sacrifices for an person not worth the trouble. Otherwise, you just allow an blind sense of loyalty to cloud your better judgment. Well, I have no idea who trained Cailan, but making him king was an bad idea in itself, since they mostly did it because he was an Theirin, rather then, IDK, an good ruler?
Well considering that when we go to the deep roads and still see massive legions of darkspawn marching their way to the surface, I doubt the number of soldiers at Ostagar would make any difference, not to mention the wardens would likely be slain before the archdemon decides to pop out.
Am guessing that the Code of Justice concerning civilized behavior might disagree with such thought. And Loghain instructed Cailan, as shown in the game; have no knowledge of the books.
And leading well trained men to their deaths on an pointless charge that wouldn't change a thing would be fair and just? An code of justice that demands me to make such pointless sacrifices means nothing to me. Well, I just checked on the wiki page and it shows both Maric and Loghain raised Cailan, but then again, for what we saw, Cailan often ignored Loghain's advices, was it Loghain's fault for raising Cailan badly, or Cailan's fault for never listening? Have you ever watched Loghain fade nightmare? It shows a lot about Cailan and Loghain relationship when they were younger.
And leading well trained men to their deaths on an pointless charge that wouldn't change a thing would be fair and just? An code of justice that demands me to make such pointless sacrifices means nothing to me. Well, I just checked on the wiki page and it shows both Maric and Loghain raised Cailan, but then again, for what we saw, Cailan often ignored Loghain's advices, was it Loghain's fault for raising Cailan badly, or Cailan's fault for never listening? Have you ever watched Loghain fade nightmare? It shows a lot about Cailan and Loghain relationship when they were younger.
Am fairly certain that this is much like Loghain's thoughts on the matter; placing personal opinion above law and authority.
And I suppose you think law and authority can never be wrong? Law and authority are systems created by the people, and people are flawed by nature. If bypassing laws results to an better outcome then obeying them, I don't see what's the problem.
And I suppose you think law and authority can never be wrong? Law and authority are systems created by the people, and people are flawed by nature. If bypassing laws results to an better outcome then obeying them, I don't see what's the problem.
And leading well trained men to their deaths on an pointless charge that wouldn't change a thing would be fair and just? An code of justice that demands me to make such pointless sacrifices means nothing to me. Well, I just checked on the wiki page and it shows both Maric and Loghain raised Cailan, but then again, for what we saw, Cailan often ignored Loghain's advices, was it Loghain's fault for raising Cailan badly, or Cailan's fault for never listening? Have you ever watched Loghain fade nightmare? It shows a lot about Cailan and Loghain relationship when they were younger.
Interesting. No, I've never seen it. I didn't even know it was accessible in the game.
Interesting. No, I've never seen it. I didn't even know it was accessible in the game.
Actually, it's not. It was cut when the devs decided to make Loghain recruitable only after you finished all main quests. But in earlier development, Loghain could be recruited before doing the circle tower quest. This is his nightmare that fans kindly managed to make in game form:
Loghain seemed to have tried to teach Cailan to be more of an realist and care about his people, rather then just go around playing hero.
Interesting. No, I've never seen it. I didn't even know it was accessible in the game.
It isn't.
Retour en haut