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[HTTP 404]

 

He didn't return with all his men. The ones in the valley were apparently Loghain's too.

 

 

 

 

dangit! I made a mistake!  you win.  I retract all my statements and now have a new opinion on this matter.

[Elhanan]

And how many of the ones on the actual battlefield, charging Cailan's lines are from Loghain's troops?

It does not matter since Loghain can not see them in this case. He makes his decision to leave without knowing; just sees the signal, and departs against the questioned response of his commander.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It does not matter since Loghain can not see them in this case. He makes his decision to leave without knowing; just sees the signal, and departs against the questioned response of his commander.

I thought I'd responded to that two posts ago.

[Elhanan]

I thought I'd responded to that two posts ago.

And I rejected it, as those torches were also held by his own troops. So unless he is as confused, his departure seems to be more conspiratorial than pragmatic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And I rejected it, as those torches were also held by his own troops. So unless he is as confused, his departure seems to be more conspiratorial than pragmatic.

The problem is that I was referring to the torches seen entering the valley right before Cailan dies, as well as to the stream of torches entering the valley as the Warden crosses the bridge. Unless I'm missing something major, none of these would have been Loghain's; whether he stayed out of the valley out of desire for life or out of desire to see Cailan dead, he stayed out of the valley.

[Aimi]

Except that given the length of the column, it's entirely possible he could have seen at least a portion of it without being able to see the battlefield. It would even make sense, since he'd need to have something of a clear channel to charge through. And the column is pretty much entirely continuous from all we see, which means he would have seen that the column continues without a break if he could see anything. Besides, the signal was meant to signal the approach of the last of the darkspawn. It is entirely rational for Loghain not to trust his own eyes for that even if he can see everything on the field. All it takes is one break in the line (though again, we don't see any) and Loghain's flankers are flanked. (I think I already pointed this out to you. I don't really remember getting an adequate response.)

There is no evidence of Loghain being able to see the darkspawn horde, and the entire point of the tower is to signal him to attack because he won't be able to see for himself. It requires some pretty impressive headcanon to have Loghain able to see the horde, but only a part of it.

I'm not sure where you're getting this "last of the darkspawn" thing from. Loghain, Cailan, and Duncan don't mention numbers or anything like that; they merely instruct the Warden and Alistair to go light the beacon. Given the information we have, it appears that the plan was relatively simple: wait for the darkspawn to engage the Ostagar defenders frontally, then hit them in the flank. There's no mention of an envelopment or a sack, and honestly waiting that long would be a very sketchy endeavor.

Yes, there are risks in the plan. Battle is like that: risky, and fundamentally, like I said earlier, a lottery. Certain victory is a mirage: what you try to do is maximize the probability of victory. If we assume that a battle has to be fought at Ostagar (for operational reasons, for bloody-mindedness, for whatever), then crafting a plan that uses the area's geographical features to the Fereldan army's advantage is crucial. The fortifications of Ostagar allow the Fereldans to funnel the darkspawn into a relatively small space that can be held with a relatively small army for a relatively long time, allowing the bulk of the Fereldan army to be used for maximum impact against the flank of an enemy army that is already frontally engaged.

If you are going to fight a battle with a poorly articulated medieval army - and all medieval armies were poorly articulated - then the plan at Ostagar is probably as good a tactical plan as you can possibly get. It's difficult, indeed, to envision a scenario where the Fereldan army stands a better chance of victory. And it's virtually impossible to imagine a scenario where the Fereldan army minus Cailan, Cailan's troops, and the Wardens would stand a better chance of victory.

[X Equestris]

And I rejected it, as those torches were also held by his own troops. So unless he is as confused, his departure seems to be more conspiratorial than pragmatic.

He chose to withdraw because the signal was extremely late. The plan didn't count on darkspawn taking over the Tower of Ishal.

[Elhanan]

He chose to withdraw because the signal was extremely late. The plan didn't count on darkspawn taking over the Tower of Ishal.

Then he would likely have already left, and the General did not have a proper timepiece.

[KaiserShep]

He chose to withdraw because the signal was extremely late. The plan didn't count on darkspawn taking over the Tower of Ishal.

 

This is clearly false, since Loghain is still there when the beacon is lit. Also, the darkspawn in the tower are irrelevant, because he had no way to know that there were even darkspawn in the tower at the time, and the Wardens succeeded just the same.

[Sidney]

This is clearly false, since Loghain is still there when the beacon is lit. Also, the darkspawn in the tower are irrelevant, because he had no way to know that there were even darkspawn in the tower at the time, and the Wardens succeeded just the same.

 

 

Plus the "time" to launch the surprise attack could be earlier or later depending on how things were going.

 

I always felt like the cut scene implied, and the first I played this was my impression, that he didn't expect the signal to be lit and so he was "waiting" counting on it not being lit as an excuse for his inaction and when it was lit it forced his hand. Plus, why would the Darkspawn attack THAT location unless they knew it had a purpose for the upcoming battle. I assumed they had insider info.  There is nothing in the rest of the game to imply that is the case so it still makes no sense.

 

The question then of why he leaves at the moment the fire goes up makes no sense. If he planned to leave the king to die, why wait to leave until you were called? Just leave. Similarly if he "sees" the horde is real and knows the battle is lost-- why wait?

[X Equestris]

This is clearly false, since Loghain is still there when the beacon is lit. Also, the darkspawn in the tower are irrelevant, because he had no way to know that there were even darkspawn in the tower at the time, and the Wardens succeeded just the same.

The beacon coming late shows how badly the entire plan had fallen apart. I'm pretty sure that someone confirmed that Loghain didn't decide to withdraw until the beacon was lit late. I fail to see how darkspawn in the tower are irrelevant, when them being there slowed the Warden down significantly.

Then he would likely have already left, and the General did not have a proper timepiece.

Do they even have personal timepieces?

[X Equestris]

If we assume that a battle has to be fought at Ostagar (for operational reasons, for bloody-mindedness, for whatever), then crafting a plan that uses the area's geographical features to the Fereldan army's advantage is crucial. The fortifications of Ostagar allow the Fereldans to funnel the darkspawn into a relatively small space that can be held with a relatively small army for a relatively long time, allowing the bulk of the Fereldan army to be used for maximum impact against the flank of an enemy army that is already frontally engaged.If you are going to fight a battle with a poorly articulated medieval army - and all medieval armies were poorly articulated - then the plan at Ostagar is probably as good a tactical plan as you can possibly get. It's difficult, indeed, to envision a scenario where the Fereldan army stands a better chance of victory. And it's virtually impossible to imagine a scenario where the Fereldan army minus Cailan, Cailan's troops, and the Wardens would stand a better chance of victory.

Except that the valley forces under Cailan's command charged out of their fortifications and engaged the darkspawn where the pass was wider. This could be poor leadership on Cailan's part, or a lack of discipline in the troops under his command. We also don't know how deep the darkspawn were. If Loghain had launched his flanking charge, he might have simply been attacked in the rear by the rest of the horde, which likely would have seen the entire Fereldan army destroyed instead of part of it.

[Elhanan]

The beacon coming late shows how badly the entire plan had fallen apart. I'm pretty sure that someone confirmed that Loghain didn't decide to withdraw until the beacon was lit late. I fail to see how darkspawn in the tower are irrelevant, when them being there slowed the Warden down significantly.

Do they even have personal timepieces?

My point, and it was already evening, so there may have been little to indicate the passage of time. He simply awaited the signal, received it, and then withdrew leaving the others to perish.

My guess as to why Loghain remained until then was to insure that the Warden's had little chance to escape, and the King was collateral damage.

[X Equestris]

My point, and it was already evening, so there may have been little to indicate the passage of time. He simply awaited the signal, received it, and then withdrew leaving the others to perish.My guess as to why Loghain remained until then was to insure that the Warden's had little chance to escape, and the King was collateral damage.

It seems to me, based on what we see in game, is that the wardens were supposed to light the signal as soon as the battle began. Loghain may well have been able to hear the sounds of battle from his position. The battle is going on for a while, with still no signal, and then the beacon fire is finally lit. This may have indicated to Loghain that the plan was already wrecked, and he decided spur of the moment to withdraw.

Some of Loghain's dialogue if you recruit him seems to imply that if he had known how crucial the wardens were to stopping the Blight, he would have found another way to get rid of Cailan. He likely viewed Cailan as a danger to Ferelden's long term survival as an independent nation. His decision to kill off the wardens at Ostagar was probably made because he viewed them as being Orlesian puppets.

[Elhanan]

It seems to me, based on what we see in game, is that the wardens were supposed to light the signal as soon as the battle began. Loghain may well have been able to hear the sounds of battle from his position. The battle is going on for a while, with still no signal, and then the beacon fire is finally lit. This may have indicated to Loghain that the plan was already wrecked, and he decided spur of the moment to withdraw.

Some of Loghain's dialogue if you recruit him seems to imply that if he had known how crucial the wardens were to stopping the Blight, he would have found another way to get rid of Cailan. He likely viewed Cailan as a danger to Ferelden's long term survival as an independent nation. His decision to kill off the wardens at Ostagar was probably made because he viewed them as being Orlesian puppets.

If the plan were viewed as ruined earlier, he could have left; no reason to wait on a signal deemed as a failure.

And others have mentioned that the writers have informed them that Cailan was not purposely deserted, so it would seem to be that the Warden's were specific to any such plans. Personally, I contend that Loghain beheld himself as the only true chance to save Ferelden, and by eliminating other possibilities insured that result.

[Sidney]

The beacon coming late shows how badly the entire plan had fallen apart. I'm pretty sure that someone confirmed that Loghain didn't decide to withdraw until the beacon was lit late. I fail to see how darkspawn in the tower are irrelevant, when them being there slowed the Warden down significantly.


Do they even have personal timepieces?

 

 

Why does a late beacon say the plan is falling apart? Loghain is supposed to bring the hammer to the anvil. A late signal can mean a lot of things. It may mean that Cailin has things in hand and is waiting to bring the coup de grace. It may mean the Darkspawn are slow moving the main body up. You don't want to bring Loghain in if you are only engaging the vanguard. There are a lot of options other than "bad things are happening".

 

In fact the earlier the signal goes up the more dire I would think you assume things are as in, "Holy cow, they ALREADY need help"?

[Sidney]

My guess as to why Loghain remained until then was to insure that the Warden's had little chance to escape, and the King was collateral damage.

 

If he doesn't think it is a true blight (and he sticks with his opinion as best I recall) he may well assume the Wardens to be disposable even if he knows their function (which it seesm no one really knows which is another reason the Wardens 100% suck). He clearly thinks Cailin is a fool and although there is nothing in the game to imply it RTO provides proof that Cailin is dallying with the Orleasians so maybe you assume he is aware of that. That explains why he would want to leave him to his death but not how he chooses to do it.

[Mike3207]

If he doesn't think it is a true blight (and he sticks with his opinion as best I recall) he may well assume the Wardens to be disposable even if he knows their function (which it seesm no one really knows which is another reason the Wardens 100% suck). He clearly thinks Cailin is a fool and although there is nothing in the game to imply it RTO provides proof that Cailin is dallying with the Orleasians so maybe you assume he is aware of that. That explains why he would want to leave him to his death but not how he chooses to do it.

He makes it pretty clear if you bring him to Ostagar that he had no idea of the deal Cailan made with the Orlesians. His reaction is memorable.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If the plan were viewed as ruined earlier, he could have left; no reason to wait on a signal deemed as a failure.

And others have mentioned that the writers have informed them that Cailan was not purposely deserted, so it would seem to be that the Warden's were specific to any such plans. Personally, I contend that Loghain beheld himself as the only true chance to save Ferelden, and by eliminating other possibilities insured that result.

That's not quite supported by what Gaider said. While he notes that Loghain went to the battle entirely cognizant that he might have to retreat and allow everyone that had already been committed to die, Gaider also said that Loghain only decided right when he saw the beacon lit, and would have saved Cailan (and by extension any Grey Wardens who hadn't yet been snuffed) if he thought that possible. (Which does rather imply that he can see the battlefield.)

 

(Yes, I agree that the exact timing looks weird. But it's not as entirely impossible as you and Eirene seem to think.)

 

Edit: You can judge for yourself here. It's not the original post, but it directly quotes it.

[Sidney]

He makes it pretty clear if you bring him to Ostagar that he had no idea of the deal Cailan made with the Orlesians. His reaction is memorable.

 

 

He's never lived for me to take him to RTO.....frankly that makes his actions even less understandable.

[Sidney]

That's not quite supported by what Gaider said. While he notes that Loghain went to the battle entirely cognizant that he might have to retreat and allow everyone that had already been committed to die, Gaider also said that Loghain only decided right when he saw the beacon lit, and would have saved Cailan (and by extension any Grey Wardens who hadn't yet been snuffed) if he thought that possible. (Which does rather imply that he can see the battlefield.)

 

(Yes, I agree that the exact timing looks weird. But it's not as entirely impossible as you and Eirene seem to think.)

 

 

Still makes no sense to what end he leaves them.What are the superior conditions he hopes to engage the Darkspawn under? Even if "victory" is not possible extracting leadership + the Wardens has value and maybe you can punch through the lines to do that to to extract the army.

 

Plus, if he can see the battle as an experienced, the most experienced, commander he shouldn't need a signal to engage. Also, if he can see the horde shouldn't it change his mind about the nature of the threat - the whole true blight thing? He leaves Ostgar and is still more concerned about Orleasian intervention than the Horde.

[Mike3207]

Both Loghain and Cauthrien make clear they thought the nation would rally around the surviving army and be willing to contribute men to beat the darkspawn. Neither of them saw it degenerating into a civil war.

 

Add to that Loghain doesn't think it is a true blight, and you can sort of see his reasons for withdrawing the army.

[dragonflight288]

And I rejected it, as those torches were also held by his own troops. So unless he is as confused, his departure seems to be more conspiratorial than pragmatic.

 

Let me add my own take. 

 

The devs confirmed that the beacon was lit over an hour late, and since it was Loghain that made the plan, he knew when the beacon should've been lit. The fact that it wasn't, and he had to wait, and wait, and wait some more before it actually was would have been aggravating. 

 

It was also confirmed by the devs that Loghain's decision to retreat was made in a split-second after the beacon was lit, and that if he felt the battle could have been won, he would've charged. 

 

In this case, he may not have had a full view of the battle, but I expect he had enough experience to know the state of the army considering how long he had to wait for the signal. 

[Elhanan]

Let me add my own take. 
 
The devs confirmed that the beacon was lit over an hour late, and since it was Loghain that made the plan, he knew when the beacon should've been lit. The fact that it wasn't, and he had to wait, and wait, and wait some more before it actually was would have been aggravating. 
 
It was also confirmed by the devs that Loghain's decision to retreat was made in a split-second after the beacon was lit, and that if he felt the battle could have been won, he would've charged. 
 
In this case, he may not have had a full view of the battle, but I expect he had enough experience to know the state of the army considering how long he had to wait for the signal.

Loghain is always aggravated. But until he left the Warden's, Duncan, the King, and other troops to die, and assigned a bounty to the survivors heads, he was not on my list. I do not care if it went over an hour or not; it occurred which was not likely to have occurred without Cailan's selections. So in the end, Cailan's plan worked; the General's failed.

Thing is, Loghain chose poorly; repeatedly, and is accountable for those decisions.

[gottaloveme]

He makes it pretty clear if you bring him to Ostagar that he had no idea of the deal Cailan made with the Orlesians. His reaction is memorable.

 

He couldn't be lying could he? He does that pretty well even to himself.