310 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He couldn't be lying could he? He does that pretty well even to himself.

He'd need to have been rehearsing that deception for a while to make it that good. Never mind that there's no real point to that deception any more given the circumstances.

[Mike3207]

He couldn't be lying could he? He does that pretty well even to himself.

He always struck me as a pretty straight shooter. The only time I can remember off hand where he actually lied was at the Landsmeet regarding the  imprisoned Templar matter.There might be others, but it's been awhile since I played the game.

[Willowhugger]

I think it's pretty clear Loghain didn't leave Calian to die or the Wardens because he wanted the throne. He did, however, attempt to blame the colossal failure of the event on the Wardens, however.

 

Because he believed they were Orlais spies.

This was such a DRAMATIC misreading of the situation that it led people to believe he was attempting a coup.

 

I also think Loghain might have been able to save Calian and the Wardens but they would have lost the battle either way--and thousands of soldiers would have been killed.

Loghain's choice is defensible but his subsequent actions show how this could easily be misread as "Evil Chancellor kills Nephew."

[DinkyD]

<snip>

Edit: You can judge for yourself here. It's not the original post, but it directly quotes it.

 

From what I remember Gaider claims no authorial insight and qualifies it all with what is, essentially, a "this is how I like to see it" just to keep the argument going.

 

Can anyone answer this question: If Loghain withdrew in good faith because he thought Cailan couldn't be saved, WHY does he not explain that to Anora when she outright asks him if he's responsible for her husband's death? This is his own daughter, the Queen, and is Cailan's widow. What possible reason could he have to be so evasive?

[X Equestris]

From what I remember Gaider claims no authorial insight and qualifies it all with what is, essentially, a "this is how I like to see it" just to keep the argument going.
 
Can anyone answer this question: If Loghain withdrew in good faith because he thought Cailan couldn't be saved, WHY does he not explain that to Anora, his own daughter, the Queen, and Cailan's widow? What possible reason does he have to be so evasive?

One could ask the same thing of Duncan. If he is so sure there is a real Blight, why doesn't he provide any real proof? The answer is because most people outside the Wardens don't know they can sense the darkspawn and the Archdemon. To someone on the outside, this might look rather suspicious.

The Wardens want to bring 4 legions of chevaliers. Orlais has a long history of annexing places that it "helped", whether it be in Blights or the Qunari Wars. With no real proof of a Blight, it looks to Loghain like the Wardens are using an exceptionally large darkspawn surface raid as an excuse to hand over Ferelden to Orlais.

Loghain does answer Anora. Cailan's death was his own doing. He chose to fight in the front, and he paid the price. Even if Loghain's men had entered the battle, I doubt they would have gotten there in time to stop that ogre from killing Cailan. Anora may not have believed that, especially since some of his actions after Ostagar do make it look like he was trying to take power himself.

[Elhanan]

One could ask the same thing of Duncan. If he is so sure there is a real Blight, why doesn't he provide any real proof? The answer is because most people outside the Wardens don't know they can sense the darkspawn and the Archdemon. To someone on the outside, this might look rather suspicious.

The Wardens want to bring 4 legions of chevaliers. Orlais has a long history of annexing places that it "helped", whether it be in Blights or the Qunari Wars. With no real proof of a Blight, it looks to Loghain like the Wardens are using an exceptionally large darkspawn surface raid as an excuse to hand over Ferelden to Orlais.

Loghain does answer Anora. Cailan's death was his own doing. He chose to fight in the front, and he paid the price. Even if Loghain's men had entered the battle, I doubt they would have gotten there in time to stop that ogre from killing Cailan. Anora may not have believed that, especially since some of his actions after Ostagar do make it look like he was trying to take power himself.

Duncan cannot prove a feeling and nightmares to others; no evidence to present beyond other Wardens.

And Loghain is responsible for the death of his King; by failure as a mentor, strategist, tactician, and/ or murderer.

[DinkyD]

<snip>

Loghain does answer Anora. Cailan's death was his own doing. He chose to fight in the front, and he paid the price. Even if Loghain's men had entered the battle, I doubt they would have gotten there in time to stop that ogre from killing Cailan. Anora may not have believed that, especially since some of his actions after Ostagar do make it look like he was trying to take power himself.

 

Oh he gives her an answer - an ambiguous one. Why doesn't he say "the battle was lost, I'm sorry, I would have saved your husband if I could"? Anora storms off apparently thinking the worst. Why does Loghain not reassure her? Does he want her to think it was his fault, even though keeping her on his side is essential to his plans?

 

Anora at the Arl's estate seems to believe her father responsible for Cailan's death. She probably took that scene as a tacit confession of guilt as I did.

 

The fact that he both blames Cailan for his own death and denies his own agency in the whole thing shows him to have lost all strength of character by that point for me.

 

Loghain being in time to save Cailan from that Ogre is neither here nor there.  Loghain's already gone. They are being overrun because the rest of the army have not arrived  - yes of course it's too late at that point.

 

 

EDIT: Some posters seem to frame this, and I realise I'm guilty of this too, as being mostly about saving Good King Cailan from an ogre. Even if you believe it was too late for that, what is Loghain's excuse for leaving everyone else still alive in that army to die? If Cailan was on the front line, then what about everyone behind? Do the grunts not matter?

Modifié par DinkyD, 07 septembre 2014 - 08:26 .

[X Equestris]

Duncan cannot prove a feeling and nightmares to others; no evidence to present beyond other Wardens.And Loghain is responsible for the death of his King; by failure as a mentor, strategist, tactician, and/ or murderer.

My point. Duncan and the other Wardens can't prove a thing to anyone outside the order. As for Loghain failing as a mentor, strategist, and tactician, that depends on your point of view. Cailan is a rather confident individual, and I doubt anyone ever had an easy time of changing his opinion. Ostagar was the best place in Ferelden to fight the darkspawn, but I think it was one of those situations where no matter what the Fereldan army was going to lose.

Oh he gives her an answer - an ambiguous one. Why doesn't he say "the battle was lost, I'm sorry, I would have saved your husband if I could"? Anora storms off apparently thinking the worst. Why does Loghain not reassure her? Does he want her to think it was his fault, even though keeping her on his side is essential to his plans?
 
Anora at the Arl's estate seems to believe her father responsible for Cailan's death. She probably took that scene as a tacit confession of guilt as I did.
 
The fact that he both blames Cailan for his own death and denies his own agency in the whole thing shows him to have lost all strength of character by that point for me.
 
Loghain being in time to save Cailan from that Ogre is neither here nor there.  Loghain's already gone. They are being overrun because the rest of the army have not arrived  - yes of course it's too late at that point.

I doubt Anora was terribly broken up by Cailan's death, considering that she has no problem siding with her father at the Landsmeet if you refuse to keep her on the throne. She is a political animal, and would do whatever she needed to to keep her position.

As for the army being overrun, they would have been beaten anyway. Loghain's troops would have needed quite a bit of time to get from wherever they were to the battlefield. Loghain can't see the battle directly, since the plan involves a signal fire. The cutscenes showing Loghain leaving and the army being overrun appear to be occurring simultaneously. Even if Loghain had decided to engage at the point the fire was lit, Cailan would probably already be dead by the time his troops reached the fighting.

Cailan's death was his own doing. He put himself in a position where he was in direct danger,and where he could neither see the whole battlefield nor withdraw if things went south. Loghain not arriving may have sealed the deal, but it was incredibly unlikely Cailan was going to get out of Ostagar alive anyway.

[DinkyD]

My point. Duncan and the other Wardens can't prove a thing to anyone outside the order. As for Loghain failing as a mentor, strategist, and tactician, that depends on your point of view. Cailan is a rather confident individual, and I doubt anyone ever had an easy time of changing his opinion. Ostagar was the best place in Ferelden to fight the darkspawn, but I think it was one of those situations where no matter what the Fereldan army was going to lose.


I doubt Anora was terribly broken up by Cailan's death, considering that she has no problem siding with her father at the Landsmeet if you refuse to keep her on the throne. She is a political animal, and would do whatever she needed to to keep her position.

As for the army being overrun, they would have been beaten anyway. Loghain's troops would have needed quite a bit of time to get from wherever they were to the battlefield. Loghain can't see the battle directly, since the plan involves a signal fire. The cutscenes showing Loghain leaving and the army being overrun appear to be occurring simultaneously. Even if Loghain had decided to engage at the point the fire was lit, Cailan would probably already be dead by the time his troops reached the fighting.

Cailan's death was his own doing. He put himself in a position where he was in direct danger,and where he could neither see the whole battlefield nor withdraw if things went south. Loghain not arriving may have sealed the deal, but it was incredibly unlikely Cailan was going to get out of Ostagar alive anyway.

 

Why would you think those two scenes were occurring simultaneously? I see no reason to think that. Only that one follows the other in time. When Duncan looks at the beacon, it is blazing away fully and powerfully, apparently been lit for a period of time.

 

Anora's feelings are not that relevant, other than it drives her to ask about Cailan's death. I'm more curious as to Loghain's motivations for game playing by not telling her the “truth” of it being a lost cause. If indeed he acted in good faith.

[gottaloveme]

Yes - Loghain wants the throne (or at least to be advisor/regent to Anora). He is an idealist and (not having read the books) went through hell during the occupation and rebellion. When everything that he did to oust the Orlesians begins unravelling and Maric's son is instrumental in that. To Loghain perhaps that is the bigger betrayal. Abandon king or abandon Ferelden? Obviously he still has enough sense of reality left to know that people will not believe him and so he prevaricates, until he believes it himself.

 

For me, he dies in the Landsmeet. He has become just as big a danger to Ferelden as the blight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Anora's feelings are not that relevant, other than it drives her to ask about Cailan's death. I'm more curious as to Loghain's motivations for game playing by not telling her the “truth” of it being a lost cause. If indeed he acted in good faith.

What he said was "Cailan's death was his own doing." I fail to see how that isn't Loghain heavily implying that he pulled out feeling that Cailan was already screwed.

[Darkly Tranquil]

What he said was "Cailan's death was his own doing." I fail to see how that isn't Loghain heavily implying that he pulled out feeling that Cailan was already screwed.

I read that a man with guilty conscience trying to convince himself that what he did was right after the fact. Maybe it's just him coming to terms with the reality that he allowed Maric's son to die without even attempting to save him, or he is simply trying to justify his actions to himself to protect his self image as a patriot. Either way, he comes off as evasive and in doubt about what took place and his role in it. Later on, once he has decided that the die is cast, he has convinced himself that he was in the right all along (because he is too arrogant to admit fault unless it is rammed in his face by the Warden) and proceeds with his ultimately self-destructive plans.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I read that a man with guilty conscience trying to convince himself that what he did was right after the fact. Maybe it's just him coming to terms with the reality that he allowed Maric's son to die without even attempting to save him, or he is simply trying to justify his actions to himself to protect his self image as a patriot. Either way, he comes off as evasive and in doubt about what took place and his role in it. Later on, once he has decided that the die is cast, he has convinced himself that he was in the right all along (because he is too arrogant to admit fault unless it is rammed in his face by the Warden) and proceeds with his ultimately self-destructive plans.

There's some overtones of that, sure, since to some degree Loghain would feel responsible in either interpretation of Ostagar, but the original question was "why doesn't Loghain come out and admit to Anora that Cailan was beyond saving when Loghain withdrew?" My point in giving that quote was that that's kinda what Loghain was trying to say there.

 

 

He has become just as big a danger to Ferelden as the blight.

That's not humanly possible.

[X Equestris]

Why would you think those two scenes were occurring simultaneously? I see no reason to think that. Only that one follows the other in time. When Duncan looks at the beacon, it is blazing away fully and powerfully, apparently been lit for a period of time.

 
Anora's feelings are not that relevant, other than it drives her to ask about Cailan's death. I'm more curious as to Loghain's motivations for game playing by not telling her the “truth” of it being a lost cause. If indeed he acted in good faith.

The beacon is only a little stronger when Duncan looks at it than it is when Loghain turns to leave. I doubt much time elapsed between those two scenes.

[Elhanan]

The beacon is only a little stronger when Duncan looks at it than it is when Loghain turns to leave. I doubt much time elapsed between those two scenes.

It would seem to be enough time to have most of the withdrawing troops get to safety, or the Darkspawn would have overwhelmed them, too. Well, unless they had attacked from the flank as was planned.

[IntoTheDarkness]

No, of course not.

 

1. Cailen agreed to fight before Olesian reinforcement. As Loghain wanted.

 

2. Loghain devised the strategy. The fact that Cailen decided to risk himself at front doesn't affect the outcome.

 

3. The strategy either failed, or Loghain failed it by betraying the king.

 

If latter, Loghain's betrayl is not justified.

 

If former, it's Loghain who made the strategy and dumped more than half of Ferelden's force to darksapwn.

 

How can anyoen say he is justified?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, of course not.

 

1. Cailen agreed to fight before Olesian reinforcement. As Loghain wanted.

 

2. Loghain devised the strategy. The fact that Cailen decided to risk himself at front doesn't affect the outcome.

 

3. The strategy either failed, or Loghain failed it by betraying the king.

 

If latter, Loghain's betrayl is not justified.

 

If former, it's Loghain who made the strategy and dumped more than half of Ferelden's force to darksapwn.

 

How can anyoen say he is justified?

The difference between the two interpretations is that the former isn't a capital offence where I come from.

[IntoTheDarkness]

The difference between the two interpretations is that the former isn't a capital offence where I come from.

 

 

Making a wrong plan and then abandoning the king without any attempts to rescue him? It's a indirect regicide and a high treason. Do you hail from Utopia?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Making a wrong plan and then abandoning the king without any attempts to rescue him? It's a indirect regicide and a high treason. Do you hail from Utopia?

The former isn't a capital offense, and it necessitated the latter. In such a case I think the worst that would happen under any rational code of law is that the general in charge is fired. (Which I suppose you can make a good argument for.)

[gottaloveme]

Loghain's action at Ostagar was betrayal. That, I feel, is beyond debate. They were expecting him on the field and he reneged. Anything else is justification. I think this is what sends him even more around the twist than he was to start with.

[bazzag]

I think in reading the stolen throne and the calling you get more of a feel for loghain and why he is what he is. Im not going to go into specifics as i dont want to spoil for anyone who wants to read them but if you look between the lines, you get a sense of loghains vices.

 

Scoot forward to Origins, and add Howe to the mix, and youve got problems. Afterall, Howe is traitourous, power hungry and bitter. In many ways, you could say that it is Howe that is the real villain.

[DinkyD]

I read that a man with guilty conscience trying to convince himself that what he did was right after the fact. Maybe it's just him coming to terms with the reality that he allowed Maric's son to die without even attempting to save him, or he is simply trying to justify his actions to himself to protect his self image as a patriot. Either way, he comes off as evasive and in doubt about what took place and his role in it. Later on, once he has decided that the die is cast, he has convinced himself that he was in the right all along (because he is too arrogant to admit fault unless it is rammed in his face by the Warden) and proceeds with his ultimately self-destructive plans.

 

I interpret it similarly  as Loghain's way of dealing with the thoughts of what he's done and his own feelings of guilt.

 

It reminds me of an essay I once read by a prison doctor on how criminals come to deny their own agency (probably as a way of dealing with the thoughts of the crimes they've committed I supposed - understandable) They tend not to say “I was in a fight and I stabbed someone”, but something like “and then the knife went in” or they'll blame the other person - it was the other's fault because “he made me angry” so he got stabbed. Note the passive tone. I am reminded of that essay when I think of Loghain saying Cailan was “ the author of his own fate”. It was Cailan's fault because through his actions, Loghain felt "forced" to abandon him. Loghain denies he had any choice.

 

There's some overtones of that, sure, since to some degree Loghain would feel responsible in either interpretation of Ostagar, but the original question was "why doesn't Loghain come out and admit to Anora that Cailan was beyond saving when Loghain withdrew?" My point in giving that quote was that that's kinda what Loghain was trying to say there.

 

 

.....

 

 

But he tries the least possible to answer Anora. Why doesn't he be straight with her - even if he blames himself unfairly, he could at least attempt to explain himself. She is angry - what has he got to lose my mollifying her? Nothing, and a lot to gain. He can't bring himself to tell her the truth of his own guilt.

[MKDAWUSS]

I read that a man with guilty conscience trying to convince himself that what he did was right after the fact. Maybe it's just him coming to terms with the reality that he allowed Maric's son to die without even attempting to save him, or he is simply trying to justify his actions to himself to protect his self image as a patriot. Either way, he comes off as evasive and in doubt about what took place and his role in it. Later on, once he has decided that the die is cast, he has convinced himself that he was in the right all along (because he is too arrogant to admit fault unless it is rammed in his face by the Warden) and proceeds with his ultimately self-destructive plans.

Yet Loghain insists Cailan not fight on the front lines.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yet Loghain insists Cailan not fight on the front lines.

To be fair that's not strong evidence that Loghain wanted Cailan to survive Ostagar. Despite Gaider seemingly wanting to portray him as a complete failure of a politician, even Loghain might be capable of understanding plausible deniability.

[rohanks]

Lands meet: I think that Loghain's interpretation of Cailin's bravura is truthful from a strategic perspective. Though his subsequent actions while maintaining the letter of military conduct failed to uphold the spirit of military conduct.

Flipping Bioware. How dare you make me feel sympathetic to a ( posited as) unsympathetic character.

Damn you and your excellent writing in DA:O