310 réponses à ce sujet

[Bhryaen]

Ahh, this topic... still churning after all these years...

 

I recall responding to this long ago from a different topic question: was retreat from the Ostagar horde strategically necessary? And after all, it is the answer to this question that determines whether Loghain's decision to retreat was betrayal or militarily justified. If if wasn't necessary, Loghain's decision was betrayal; and if it was necessary, Loghain was simply making saving move. I suppose there's a 3rd option: Loghain was militarily incompetant- not plotting his personal advancement but simply wetting his pants in the situation and failing his generalship, misjudging the strength of the forces against him and tucking tail and running when he could've wiped out the existing horde then and there. How indeed was Loghain to determine decisively- given his experience primarily against the forces of his fellow humans- what kind of force the monstrous horde really presented- even despite his repeated military successes against fewer of them theretofore?.

 

My answer to this then was... "I don't know." The conspicuously sinister portrayal of Loghain in the cutscenes throughout the game and the massive and well-organized forces Loghain commanded during the Ostagar cutscene leave it ambiguous enough for me to not be able to state conclusively what the military situation was in the field at Ostagar. It is completely reasonable to conclude from the cutscenes and other material that Loghain used the situation to deliberately eliminate King Cailan to become Regent- not for the "good of Ferelden" but for his own personal gain, counting on mass approval for his actions- and he clearly openly underestimates the darkspawn in cutscenes after Ostagar. But it is also feasible that Loghain is simply generally a detestable character (even his proponents don't add "charismatic" to his assets), yet nevertheless correctly estimated that Ostagar was not winnable- then perhaps later botched the response to Ferelden's people and ended up in a civil war he then thought he could defeat handily. At Ostagar we get to see massive ranks of darkspawn, but potentially just as massive ranks of Loghain's troops, so there is no way to know if- Loghain as general or someone else as general that we prefer- it was even a winnable fight. The power of either side is completely ambiguous. Yes, ogres were in the darkspawn ranks, but so may have been any number of high-level warriors and rogues among the troops Loghain commanded. And Loghain did have veteran forces (some of whom we fight later on). And there were obvioulsy grunts among the darkspawn ranks which we encounter during Return to Ostagar. It is not just that Gaider has taken a non-committal stance: all the artists rendering the game's narrative have done so on this ground. Whatever stance the player takes regarding the battle- whether preference for rationalizing away Loghain's failings or ardent insistence on Loghain's betrayal- there is nothing in the narrative that can conclusively settle this question.

 

Ultimately it appears to me that the most decisive distillation of all factors is that Loghain tends to employ needlessly brutal methods to further unjustifiable aims, so by Landsmeet Loghain must go. I've recruited him at that point. Other games I've beheaded him. No big deal either way for me- so long as he isn't commanding any longer. (Not that the volatile Alistair appears a meaningful replacement, but...) Loghain and his gusto for civil war quagmires (and his predictable rationalizations for failing to address the darkspawn threat) have long since become an obstacle to defeating the Archdemon. But this "uiltimately" is by the end of the game, and options otherwise did not exist for our newly-inducted Warden at Ostagar. (Long before then I've already put a bullseye on his head due to my lack of forgiveness for those who try to kill me, but still...)

 

A more poignant question is: why didn't the Archdemon just show up at Ostagar and wipe out everyone- Cailan, Loghain, our Warden- when there was no silly Fort Drakon rooftop fight to deal with? Why wait for our Warden to get powerful before showing up at the largest city in Ferelden where the most substantive forces and resistance would be arrayed against it? Was there some reason for it to instead languish, flying about in the Deep Roads preaching to the brainless? But OK, no game that way, so... Loghain's an ass!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A more poignant question is: why didn't the Archdemon just show up at Ostagar and wipe out everyone- Cailan, Loghain, our Warden- when there was no silly Fort Drakon rooftop fight to deal with? Why wait for our Warden to get powerful before showing up at the largest city in Ferelden where the most substantive forces and resistance would be arrayed against it? Was there some reason for it to instead languish, flying about in the Deep Roads preaching to the brainless? But OK, no game that way, so... Loghain's an ass!

I think I like the snipped part, but there's little to actually reply to there, so as for the quoted part:

 

I can only assume the Archdemon was hiding from the Grey Wardens. It makes sense, really. I mean, there's nothing the horde can lose at Ostagar except for the Archdemon that would end its plans. If anything else dies, the horde can either replace it with dozens more just as powerful, or just do without. That's not quite the case with the Archdemon. The reason it shows up later is because it thinks it can safely do so thanks to its immortality power: there are at most four living Wardens left in Ferelden. That's not good odds for the good guys. Really, they pretty much only win because one of them's a PC.

[Kierro Ren]

Loghain was mad with power. He and his daughter refused to renounce a throne, when they had no claim by blood. This is why he killed Cailan, to keep the throne. As for the retreat, he was a coward, military strategy or not, he ran without a fight. Even if they would of lost, he'd be a true hero with bravery if he joined the battle. True bravery doesn't mean to be fearless, it means being scared sh*tless, and wetting your trousers, yet do it anyways. The death toll may be high, but likely there would been more survivors too. Loghain, a 40yo man, was out done in bravery... by a boy.

 

Cailan's men were ill experience, farmers likely, in bronze armor. Loghain? Had the meat, the good old fashion steel, and likely skilled soldiers. Yet, he left. He claims to love Maric, yet shows his love by killing his friend's son. Duncan was a truer friend to Maric, than Loghain could ever dream, he made a promise to protect Maric's sons.

[Lavaeolus]

I doubt Loghain killed Cailan to keep the throne, given he hadn't actually got it yet. Semantics. But regardless of whether you win or lose, whether Ostagar was winnable or no, I have to question how blindly rushing into any battle no matter your chances, sacrificing men under you, makes you in anyway a hero. Brave, perhaps, and also maybe an idiot but not a hero, or indeed a particularly good general. Retreat has its place for a reason. If you want to make the argument more people would live had he charged in, that's something else entirely.

 

Don't know where you got "Cailan's army were all a bunch of random farmers" from either. Did we ever hear much about whose troops were better?

[X Equestris]

I doubt Loghain killed Cailan to keep the throne, given he hadn't actually got it yet. Semantics. But regardless of whether you win or lose, whether Ostagar was winnable or no, I have to question how blindly rushing into any battle no matter your chances, sacrificing men under you, makes you in anyway a hero. Brave, perhaps, and also maybe an idiot but not a hero, or indeed a particularly good general. Retreat has its place for a reason. If you want to make the argument more people would live had he charged in, that's something else entirely.

Don't know where you got "Cailan's army were all a bunch of random farmers" from either. Did we ever hear much about whose troops were better?

Aveline was a knight sworn to Cailan's service, and her comments make it sound like she was with him on the battlefield. Cailan had solid troops with him In the battle. He probably had levies, too, but he had knights and real foot soldiers with him as well. The idea that Cailan only had inexperienced troops with him is false.

[olnorton]

I think Loghain was just a silly old man, trying to relive his glory days.
What many of the Loghain supporters seem to overlook is that Loghain had organized Jowen to kill Eamon & Howe to kill Cousland before he even got to Ostagar & had done the deal with Uldred & the bloodmages to take over the tower.
His main fear was that Cailan would succeed in ending the blight & unite Ferelden & Orlais in peaceful coexistence.
Vastly diminishing his own hero status.
If Orlais had wanted to reoccupy Ferelden, they didn't need Cailans permission, they could have waited for the darkspawn to take care of their armies & then ended the blight themselves.
As a military strategist Loghain was inept beyond belief.
With his army, Howe's army & a small army of mercenaries, he couldn't kill two grey wardens who weren't even hiding.
As a man, he was a slaver (scum of the earth)
As a warrior in one on one battle in his expensive, massive silverlite armor, he got his arse handed to him by a young elf girl in leather. (just a silly old fool)

In the 5 years his daughter held the power in Ferelden, humans could rape & kill elves without fear of reprisal (unless it came from the elves themselves)
As a politician she was woefully inept, she went to the landsmeet without checking if she had the numbers.
And then relied on the remnants of Loghains elite guard to take power in spite of personally witnessing his best commander & a room full of elite guard taken down by a young elf girl, an Orlesian singer, an old woman & a dog.
She had no qualms about siding with the slaver who murdered her husband & so it was a major disappointment that you couldn't cut the bitches head off along with her fathers.

[Greypaul]

Loghain was a traitor no doubt but this comes from his hatred of the orlesians.If you read the companion novel The stolen throne you find out his mother was raped and murdered in front of him by orlesian soldiers.I believe this twisted his mind so when cailan began talk of asking orlais for help his hatred overcame him and he began his plot to overthrow the king.But still i think he was reluctant to go ahead with his plan although it didnt stop him from deserting ostagar.No he was a traitor and deserved no mercy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As a warrior in one on one battle in his expensive, massive silverlite armor, he got his arse handed to him by a young elf girl in leather. (just a silly old fool)

By which metric Tevinter Magisters, Pride Abominations, and Archdemons are kinda overrated too.

[olnorton]

By which metric Tevinter Magisters, Pride Abominations, and Archdemons are kinda overrated too.

No, I certainly couldn't have defeated an Archdemon one out, in single combat.
Well not as quickly as I dispatched that old man anyway.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, I certainly couldn't have defeated an Archdemon one out, in single combat.
Well not as quickly as I dispatched that old man anyway.

Point is, you're still being unfair when you say "he lost to the Warden" is the same as "he's weak."

[olnorton]

He had to be at least in his mid fifties, I know of no man that age that could last a protracted battle with a fit young man.
If he had the guts to take on Cailan in an honourable manor, Cailan would have despatched him & saved the lives of many Ferelden citizens. Which is why he took the cowardly approach.

[Lavaeolus]

Point is, you're still being unfair when you say "he lost to the Warden" is the same as "he's weak."

 I had a Warden solo the Archdemon, and all its darkspawn allies, without even bothering to call an army for back-up. Losing to a PC is a bit like losing to a supernova. Both in-story and out-of-game, the Warden is basically a god-among-men.
 
That Loghain was a man in his 50s and managed to have even a chance at battle is all the more impressive, not less. And if you recruit him, he is no less strong than Alistair -- aside from him being levelled in advance, which is more a fault of the way the game's coded. Oghren isn't gradually becoming weaker the longer you get to him, after all.
 
On him being militarily inept: if you listen to all the gossip, doesn't it say he's basically singlehandily winning the Civil War? It is not easy to track down two lone people in the midst of a civil war, especially when they keep travelling to places like the home of the dwarves and the Dalish, nor is it really a reflectment of poor military ability (not going to rule out the importance of things like tracking, but it's not exactly a large battle in a war).
 

If Orlais had wanted to reoccupy Ferelden, they didn't need Cailans permission, they could have waited for the darkspawn to take care of their armies & then ended the blight themselves.

I will say, if you're going to invade a place for its land, generally it's better to do it when it's not a devastated Blight-infested wreckage.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

On him being militarily inept: if you listen to all the gossip, doesn't it say he's basically singlehandily winning the Civil War?

The one correction I'd make is that he's not doing so single-handedly. Howe mentions the two have allies, and judging by the way the Landsmeet goes if you don't do any quests that seems to be most of the nobles with any actual power.

[TheMyron]

One thing remains for sure; Logain will die. The blood of too many innocents are on his hands.

[Hazegurl]

One thing remains for sure; Logain will die. The blood of too many innocents are on his hands.

Not in my canon story. Loghain will eventually die during his calling like all Grey Wardens

[olnorton]

Did he know so little about blood mages that he didn't know where Uldred got his awesome power?
Or did his mighty ego allow him to think he could control demons & abominations. (foolish man)
Or did he simply not think that far ahead, because thinking & planning was not his strong suit?
I think he just thought that if he could kill Cousland, kill Eamon, & kill Cailan, then He could sit on the throne & send armies out to conquer the world & Nooobody would tell him what to do anymore... Foolish child old man.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Did he know so little about blood mages that he didn't know where Uldred got his awesome power?
Or did his mighty ego allow him to think he could control demons & abominations. (foolish man)
Or did he simply not think that far ahead, because thinking & planning was not his strong suit?
I think he just thought that if he could kill Cousland, kill Eamon, & kill Cailan, then He could sit on the throne & send armies out to conquer the world & Nooobody would tell him what to do anymore... Foolish child old man.

Considering that there were Templars at Ostagar and the priest was dictating strategy to the king and the general, I don't think Uldred had any opportunity to use blood magic, and considering that Loghain tolerated the priest in the strategy session it's up in the air whether Uldred would feel safe even telling Loghain he had it even if he caught him alone. So, that's probably your answer.

[olnorton]

So he enlisted his help, promising him control of the mages without knowing much about him?
Well then he is clearly much smarter than I gave him credit for.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So he enlisted his help, promising him control of the mages without knowing much about him?
Well then he is clearly much smarter than I gave him credit for.

I was not aware that Uldred was promised anything other than that Loghain would put his own weight behind future negotiations with the Chantry. I don't suppose you can cite a source?

[Aimi]

Not in my canon story. Loghain will eventually die during his calling like all Grey Wardens

He will eventually die anyway. Life is a death sentence.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He will eventually die anyway. Life is a death sentence.

Thank you, I needed to be reminded of that right now.

[Lavaeolus]

I think Loghain just wanted to enlist the Circle's help by promising them more freedoms, with Uldred just serving as something of a middle-man. Whether Uldred and Loghain had any else going on is never stated, though I think Gaider once said that Uldred and Loghain both wanted the beacon's control so they could decide whether or not to light them or retreat. In that big Loghain topic where he posted.

 

That Loghain should have any indication that Uldred was a blood mage is another matter entirely. Frankly, if Irving and all the other mages didn't see it coming, you can't expect someone who hardly knew him, whether he did extensive background checks or just winged it, to know.

[Aimi]

On him being militarily inept: if you listen to all the gossip, doesn't it say he's basically singlehandily winning the Civil War? It is not easy to track down two lone people in the midst of a civil war, especially when they keep travelling to places like the home of the dwarves and the Dalish, nor is it really a reflectment of poor military ability (not going to rule out the importance of things like tracking, but it's not exactly a large battle in a war).

 
Which is true. He does gain the upper hand in the civil war; by the time of the Landsmeet, all organized opposition seems to have been killed, cowed into submission, or forced into Eamon's camp. But it's not clear how much that means when darkspawn are swarming into the southern portion of the country, overrunning everything in range.

A comparison. In the middle of the fifth century, the western Roman Empire was more or less run by a general named Flavivs Aetivs. The Emperors that Aetivs served were incompetents, unable to impose their will or lead their own armies. Aetivs was thus one of many generals scrabbling for power - the chance to become the Emperor's right hand, and rule in fact if not in name. He was good at these civil wars, and over a period of about fifteen years he crushed all his rivals.

But in doing this - in focusing on the Roman armies arrayed against him - he neglected other forces. The narrative of 'barbarian tribes' swarming across the frontier and bringing down the Roman Empire is painfully simplistic, if not outright wrong, but it suffices for our purposes to say that Aetivs's wars against Roman opponents allowed 'barbarian' forces to slip in the cracks and become major players in Roman politics in their own right. Aetivs had a rival, Bonifacivs, who made his base in North Africa; when Aetivs defeated Bonifacivs, the Vandals and Alans took over the region. The same thing happened with the Burgundiones and Goths in Gaul, and with the Huns in the Danube valley.

So Aetivs successfully defeated his short-term enemies, although by rights they should not have been enemies at all. But he did so at the medium-term cost of setting up new enemies, ones that he could not defeat. Aetivs barely managed to blunt the Huns' attacks on the Western Empire before Attila died and the Hunnic confederacy fell apart. He did not long survive Attila, however, being murdered by his own Emperor's men.

Similarly, Loghain successfully defeated most of his domestic rivals in a civil war that, by rights, ought not have been fought. But he failed completely to arrest the spread of the darkspawn. Aetivs at least had the excuse that it would be preposterous for a few thousand 'barbarians' to bring down the Roman Empire (which was true, and they didn't bring down the Empire, but let that go). Loghain had no such excuse; Blights are the worst catastrophes that can possibly befall a country in Thedas.
 

Thank you, I needed to be reminded of that right now.

:S My bad.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 So Aetivs successfully defeated his short-term enemies, although by rights they should not have been enemies at all. But he did so at the medium-term cost of setting up new enemies, ones that he could not defeat. Aetivs barely managed to blunt the Huns' attacks on the Western Empire before Attila died and the Hunnic confederacy fell apart. He did not long survive Attila, however, being murdered by his own Emperor's men.

Similarly, Loghain successfully defeated most of his domestic rivals in a civil war that, by rights, ought not have been fought. But he failed completely to arrest the spread of the darkspawn. Aetivs at least had the excuse that it would be preposterous for a few thousand 'barbarians' to bring down the Roman Empire (which was true, and they didn't bring down the Empire, but let that go). Loghain had no such excuse; Blights are the worst catastrophes that can possibly befall a country in Thedas.

The problem with that comparison is that to some degree, the Civil War wasn't Loghain's doing. He bears more responsibility if you accept that he killed Cailan on purpose, and he arguably still bears some if he left Cailan due to a feeling that it was too late to save him when the beacon went off, and in either interpretation he bears some responsibility separate from his role in the battle itself due to his spectacular failure at diplomacy when trying to persuade the Bannorn to follow him. But the fact remains that he tried to rally Ferelden to fight the darkspawn, and that it was ultimately the decision of Teagan (among others) to ignore Loghain's orders and to force a civil war. And considering that he'd have to move either near or through the lands of rebellious nobles to get to whatever the new frontlines in the fight against the darkspawn were, I don't see how he was going to ignore belligerent nobles and fight the darkspawn instead.

 

Edit: But then again, rereading your post I don't know if Aetivs had much choice either under the circumstances. I'm less sure here than I am of Loghain's decision, but could he have ignored the civil war and yet retained the power to face the barbarians?

[Aimi]

The problem with that comparison is that to some degree, the Civil War wasn't Loghain's doing. He bears more responsibility if you accept that he killed Cailan on purpose, and he arguably still bears some if he left Cailan due to a feeling that it was too late to save him when the beacon went off, and in either interpretation he bears some responsibility separate from his role in the battle itself due to his spectacular failure at diplomacy when trying to persuade the Bannorn to follow him. But the fact remains that he tried to rally Ferelden to fight the darkspawn, and that it was ultimately the decision of Teagan (among others) to ignore Loghain's orders and to force a civil war. And considering that he'd have to move either near or through the lands of rebellious nobles to get to whatever the new frontlines in the fight against the darkspawn were, I don't see how he was going to ignore belligerent nobles and fight the darkspawn instead.

The interesting thing is that it's not even all that clear that he did try to rally Ferelden against the darkspawn. He refers obliquely to a crisis that must be responded to sensibly, but he may as well be talking about his phantom Orlesian threat as about the horde. One doesn't even need to accept Loghain's culpability in the outbreak of civil war to point at his failure to defend Ferelden from the Blight.

There is no evidence of Loghain even attempting to engage the darkspawn and a fairly instructive example of him refusing to do so: the withdrawal immediately after Ostagar stripped Lothering of its defenses as well. Instead of posting troops there, he hastened to Denerim with, apparently, his full army, in order to immediately stake his claim on the levers of power. That certainly looks guilty, even if it's also, potentially, quite pragmatic for even a relatively innocent Loghain to have done. Perhaps he guessed that he would face opposition from the country's nobles and wanted as many troops as he could muster to intimidate them and steal a march on a potential rebellion, but that still underlines the extent to which he focused on defeating internal opponents to the exclusion of the darkspawn. And that was the point I was trying to make.

And although it isn't necessarily true that Loghain's focus on Orlais at the Landsmeet can be back-traced to the immediate aftermath of Ostagar, I think that it's not an unreasonable reconstruction based on his reaction to Cailan's suggestion of waiting for the Orlesian Wardens. (A total red herring, because waiting for Orlais - or Arl Eamon - would've required the army to somehow retreat from Ostagar in the face of a nearby and numerically superior enemy. Loghain presumably managed to do it because the king's army and the Wardens were a blood sacrifice that kept the horde occupied while the main army escaped. Giving up a chunk of the army in a hopeless sacrificial rearguard action...well, it might've been necessary, but there's only so far one can retreat. If Cailan chose to wait for either group in place at Ostagar, the darkspawn would still have attacked anyway.)