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[Merle McClure II]

I'd already seen the blog trying to explain Ostagar ... not an bad albeit overly simplified argument and not really relevant to the points I actually care about. As for the thread ... a quick skimming of a selection of the posts from the ~60 page thread has left me ... rather unimpressed by the "Loghain is innocent Crowd".

 

 

And as for "author intent" ... tell me, what was the "author intent" when Alistair explains exactly when Templars first imbibe Lyruim and confirms that he never has? How about when Gaidar later claims that it was "author intent" that Templar powers "really are" powered by Lyruim after all and the only reason they didn't show it was because "They couldn't figure out how to." --HINT, simply have Alistair mention that in order to teach the Warden to be a Templar they need to first take a sip from a Lyruim potion when he agrees to unlock said spec. Oh, and don't bother recording the scene where Alistair specially says the EXACT OPOSERITE!

 

 

What was "author intent" when Tolken first wrote "The Hobbit" and later had to rewrite portions of the book in order to make it a prequel to "Lord of the Rings"? More importantly just because "the author" clearly changed his "author's intent" does that make someone reading one of the original printings of The Hobbit wrong in pointing out that there is nothing in that version to support Bilbo's ring as being "The One" or that you can apparently travel to China from the Shire?  

 

 

So basically, yeah, once an Author has released a book/movie/video game the events of said work are no longer their's to dictate however they want ... UNLESS of course they actually go back and change the events that take place in the book/video game/movie. Gaidar is ether unable or unwilling (my money is on unable) to reproduce Dragon Age Origins so anything that he (or anyone else for that matter) says which counterdicts what actually happens in the game is simply ... wrong. And blindly worshiping "author's intent" is ... silly at best.   

 

 

--EDIT--

 

 

Oh, and at the time when Origins was produced ... who was Alistair's mother? ... Does anyone seriously believe that Alistair was REALLY an 1/2 Elf in Origins/Awakening? 

[Vazgen]

I'd like to add something on the topic of "writer's intention". Video games are a bit different from books in that regard. There are multiple people working on a story. I'll give you a quote from Drew Karpyshin, former lead writer of Mass Effect series (link), as he describes it much better than me:

 

So I don’t like to say “here’s what we originally were thinking” because it gives a false and very distorted impression of the process. Mass Effect was the creation of a huge team, with contributions coming in from many people at many stages of the project. Some things I liked ended up getting cut, some stuff I wasn’t sure of worked its way in. That’s the nature of the beast with collaborative works, and I think in the end it makes the final product stronger. But talking about the changes after the fact feels like I’m sitting on my throne and proclaiming, “That’s not what I would have done!” It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and say “I would do this or that”, but it’s very different when you’re part of the process, working with multiple ideas, trying to piece it all together and still hit your deadlines. Anyone who wasn’t part of the ME3 team is an outsider – even me – and whatever they say about the creation of the game is just unsubstantiated speculation.

[Merle McClure II]

Excellent point, although I'd still argue that the collaborative nature of a video game or even a "shared world" in general makes the "author's intent" argument weaker as opposed to stronger.

[Klidi]

My personal thoughts on Loghain:

 

Ostagar was not a betrayal. It was a hard choice to save what remained of his men. I have plenty of other issues with Loghain, but this is not one of them.

 

- The guy gave up Rowan, the love of his life, for Maric. He's tirelessly fought for the freedom of Ferelden, for thirty years. Why betray all of that at Ostagar? For power? I don't believe it. He's arrogant, but not a seeker of power.

- Cailan was a fool, and was planning to marry Celene, thus ruining Ferelden. Not to mention the whole battle strategy was doomed from the beginning, with our golden king trying to play hero.

- Neither Cailan, nor Loghain knew how to slay the Archdemon. This is crucial tactical information that Duncan foolishly withheld.

- Duncan only recruited two dozen Wardens, and never investigated Soldiers' Peak. Nor did he ask for transfers from other countries like Rivain or Nevarra, as opposed to Orlais.

- Loghain's distrust of the Grey Warden Order is understandable, given the events of The Calling.

 

Ultimately, it was the darkspawn who compromised the Tower of Ishal, killed King Cailan and the Wardens, and also killed much of the royal army. I hold them responsible.

 

HIS men?

 

He was the king's general.

 

Cailan wasn't a fool. He was jovial, and making jokes about the war, but he was a fool in only one thing - giving his trust to a wrong man. Because, you see, as a main general of the king's army, Loghain was responsible for the whole army, for the lives of all soldiers, not just "his". If the retreat really was a military necessity, he would command retreat of the whole army. He would have send a signal to the king that the situation was too bad and couldn't be won. Cailan was proud and stubborn, but I doubt he was suicidal.

 

But that was never a part of Loghain's plans.

 

Why was Cailan so confident? Because Ostagar wasn't the first battle. They already had several (I think four), and the king's army, under the command of his general Loghain, won. And Loghain assured him they didn't need reinforcements from Orlais. So why wouldn't he be confident that they'd win this battle as well? Why wouldn't he believe that Eamon's forces were also not necessary? Cailan was a king, not a strategist - that was Loghain's task.

 

And Loghain either failed at it splendidly - or he did things exactly as he had planned them.

 

In the second case, he planned to abandon the king and sacrifice a big part of the army regardless on how winnable the situation was (and regardless when and how the signal was lit).

 

That means he was deliberately giving Cailan wrong advice - he knew exactly what to do and say to manipulate the young king with no experience on a field to do what he wanted - a military coup d'état, to get rid of the king and his supporters and to usurp the throne. Arl Guerrin was poisoned by a man hired by Loghain, Arl Cousland was slaughtered by Loghain's lackey - under the excuse that Bryce Cousland was a traitor, but without any court.

 

That was his main worry. And he was willing to sacrifice thousands of lives to achieve his goalHe didn't care about the Blight at all - because he never believed it was a real Blight. He thought that was a ploy of Grey Wardens to win more influence over the king.

 

The best proof that he didn't take it very seriously is that he retreated all the way to Denerim and never paid any attention to it. If he retreated because the darkspawn horde was too strong - if he witnessed what a great force it was, would he, a general, ignore it? Wouldn't he put the whole country on the red alert? But he didn't. For a whole year, he pretty much ignored the darkspawn attacks and focused on rising enough funds to finance his civil war - and he did that by deliberately selling the citizens to slavery in another country.

 

I find it very difficult to believe that such a man gave a damn about the country or the populace.

 

Why he did it? That's anyone's guess. Maybe because he was tired of serving under Theirins - he always felt Marric wasn't a great king, and he was probably frustrated by Cailan, especially if Cailan was willing to negotiate with Orlais. (Which imho proves Cailan was not a fool - he was a politician, a diplomat, unlike Loghain who apparently never quite overcame his nationalism and hostility toward Orlesians even after thirty years).

 

Whatever the reasons, the fact remains that he wanted and tried to usurp the power in the country.

[Monica21]

Splitting your forces is inherently dangerous in that you can't control what happens to the forces of which you are not in direct control.

I would argue that charging when the beacon was lit would have ended in the sacrifice of all the Ferelden forces at Ostagar, instead of just some of them. Noble? Sure, but to what end?

There is *sigh* again *sigh* still no evidence to support that Loghain knew anything about Howe's plan to murder the Couslands. The most you have is what happened after the fact. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is an invalid argument.

Nobody believed it was a Blight. Bryce Cousland didn't believe it was a Blight. Cailan didn't believe it was a Blight. There's no reason to believe that they should have known something when the Grey Wardens would not disclose why they knew it. Four hundred years is a long time and the Wardens had essentially fallen into the realm of mythology.

Loghain retreated to Denerim to regroup and because not all of Ferelden's forces were at Ostagar. Surely you noticed that he was addressing other nobles? Also notice Teagan saying that the darkspawn threat isn't really the important thing? That what's really important is that Loghain's not the boss of him? Loghain needed the rest of those forces to fight the darkspawn and explicitly states that when addressing the nobles. That's the opposite of "never paid attention to it."

Loghain did not think that Maric was a bad king. Maric was his best friend. Loghain has very good reasons to distrust Orlais, being that Chevaliers raped and murdered his mother in front of him and his father because they couldn't pay the extraordinary tax Orlais had imposed for the specific purpose of kicking farmers off their lands to hand it over to Orlesian nobles.

 

Whatever the reasons, the fact remains that he wanted and tried to usurp the power in the country.

 

Given Ferelden's very recent history with Orlais, that Loghain, as a commoner at the time, was directly impacted by their quite brutal rule, and that Cailan really was planning to ally with Orlais, so what? Good for Loghain.

[Xetykins]

The fact that we see loghain and howe tied to their knickers right after ostagar and no scene about loghain being disgusted about all howe's methods says a lot tho.
And the fact that howe would never in hell have the guts to sack the second most powerful family in ferelden without assurance that he wont hang for it kind of very telling.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The fact that we see loghain and howe tied to their knickers right after ostagar and no scene about loghain being disgusted about all howe's methods says a lot tho.
And the fact that howe would never in hell have the guts to sack the second most powerful family in ferelden without assurance that he wont hang for it kind of very telling.

Howe shows a lot less intelligence than this argument seems to credit him with (not to mention a lot more balls) when he embezzles in a time of war and keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own (apparently favorite) home. Not to mention that he tries to get work done without paying the workers. As for Loghain not being shown as disgusted with Howe's methods, what do you call him reacting incredulously when Howe introduces Zevran and then immediately draining his goblet after approving the hit with visible reluctance?

[Klidi]

There is *sigh* again *sigh* still no evidence to support that Loghain knew anything about Howe's plan to murder the Couslands. The most you have is what happened after the fact. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is an invalid argument.

 

Nonsense. Loghain would have to be blind, deaf and mentally retarded NOT to know. Since everything in the game shows that Loghain was cunning, if not wise, I find it extremely difficult to believe that. Before his alliance with Loghain, Howe wasn't powerful enough to pull it off. You heard Cailan and Loghain, right? If Cailan survived, he would see to it that Howe is punished. In other words, at the time Howe attacked Couslands he had to know there will be no consequences for him.

 

Besides, there's another interesting thing - Howe's forces that were supposed to be in Ostagar, but were instead in Highever. Which again proves Loghain never intended to fight at Ostagar.

 

 

Loghain retreated to Denerim to regroup and because not all of Ferelden's forces were at Ostagar. Surely you noticed that he was addressing other nobles? Also notice Teagan saying that the darkspawn threat isn't really the important thing? That what's really important is that Loghain's not the boss of him? Loghain needed the rest of those forces to fight the darkspawn and explicitly states that when addressing the nobles. That's the opposite of "never paid attention to it."

 

Actually, he said that they have to rebuild what was lost at Ostagar, because there are others that would use Ferelden's weakened state (which was caused by him, btw - whether he planned it or not, the fact still remains HE was the one who made the strategy at Ostagar, that Cailand FOLLOWED the plan and that Loghain... what? Forgot? Didn't bother? to warn the king's troops to retreat.

 

Bann Teagan stepped forward and asked what about the army lost at Ostagar? He says, 'Your retreat was most... fortuitous', which causes shocked gasps from the crowd.

 

Loghain then said he will not tolerate any threat to throne - which means him, btw, since he declared himself Queen Anora's regent, although she didn't really NEED one - she was present, able, and of age. And we know what happened next. Nobles went missing - only to be found tortured in Howe's dungeon. And if you want to say that poor little Loghain had no clue, then please remember that one of the prisoners found there was Riordan, who claimed Loghain was involved in cutting off Ferelden Wardens from help. Which means two things - Loghain closely cooperated with Howe, and Loghain still didn't believe the Blight was real, even after the whole south of his country was ruined. In fact, Howe tried to point out the increasing threat of darkspawn, but Loghain insisted the real threat was Orlais.

[Xetykins]

Howe shows a lot less intelligence than this argument seems to credit him with (not to mention a lot more balls) when he embezzles in a time of war and keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own (apparently favorite) home. Not to mention that he tries to get work done without paying the workers. As for Loghain not being shown as disgusted with Howe's methods, what do you call him reacting incredulously when Howe introduces Zevran and then immediately draining his goblet after approving the hit with visible reluctance?

At the end of the day he still sanctioned it. Makes me think that him sanctioning the cousland fate is not far off too.

[Monica21]

*throws hands in air*

[Klidi]

Howe shows a lot less intelligence than this argument seems to credit him with (not to mention a lot more balls) when he embezzles in a time of war and keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own (apparently favorite) home. Not to mention that he tries to get work done without paying the workers. As for Loghain not being shown as disgusted with Howe's methods, what do you call him reacting incredulously when Howe introduces Zevran and then immediately draining his goblet after approving the hit with visible reluctance?

 

Yes, he was disgusted. But he DID know about it and he DID approve it.

 

And as for those prisoners... it was only unintelligent of Howe if it was his own decision and if it wasn't, in fact, a cower-up for someone else. Perhaps a higher rank noble? Look at who we find in the dungeons:

- Oswyn, who was imprisoned, because a friend who was at Ostagar told him he was ordered to retreat BEFORE Cailan was overrun by darkspawn. After which the friend went missing, and when Oswyn started asking questions, he found himself in dungeons, tortured.

Now, ask yourself: WHO would benefit from killing a witness from Ostagar? Howe? Or Loghain?

 

- Riordan, who blames Loghain for his imprisonment. When you ask him how Howe captured him, he says, "With a word of hospitality and poisoned chalice. I was fool enough to think Loghain didn't yet know who I was."

 

- Irminric, a Knight-Lieutenant Templar. He says he found Jowan in Redcliffe, but Teyrn's men took Jowan away from him and brought him 'here' (to Howe's dungeons).

 

What other evidence do you need? Loghain was perhaps disgusted, but he knew what Howe was doing, and he cooperated with the man. And I doubt Howe did all that for Loghain's lovely eyes and sexy voice... but Teyrndom, now that's something worth considering... maybe there's another Teyrn, loyal to the Crown, that could conveniently die just at the right moment? Loghain doesn't have to worry, Howe will take care of it itself - all Loghain must do is make sure there is no annoying king that could punish this crime...

[TEWR]

There's just as much evidence to suggest that Howe took those men on his own because he knew it would help the Teyrn stay secure, but also grant him (Howe) a means to further expand his own personal reach. Howe is never satisfied with what he has. Why else do you think that Berwick was told to report to a man under Howe's command? Howe would no doubt have conveniently "forgotten" about Eamon's condition worsening were he told of it, to the point that Eamon would've died, so he could plot how to take Redcliffe for himself.

 

Howe would sell out Ferelden to Orlais if it meant more power and authority for himself.

 

Oswin is son to the Dragon's Peak bann, which rests not far from Denerim. Waking Sea stands not far from Highever I believe (but I dunno if I'm right) and as we've seen Howe aims to use the chaos to his advantage. Look at what he wanted to do to Eamon and Anora. He wanted Anora killed so Eamon could be removed from power by being blamed. By extension, this would remove the Warden. This removes the three figures that present a threat to his ambitions. Howe's a shortsighted idiot who thinks only of himself.

 

The fact that we see loghain and howe tied to their knickers right after ostagar and no scene about loghain being disgusted about all howe's methods says a lot tho.
And the fact that howe would never in hell have the guts to sack the second most powerful family in ferelden without assurance that he wont hang for it kind of very telling.

 

You don't see Howe and Loghain together until you complete your first main quest. Given that the events of Origins span a year, just when the alliance began is unknown, but certainly prior to a month or two after Ostagar

 

What people forget is that Howe forced himself into these positions of power. He rode to Denerim during the riots to "reinforce the garrison" but ended up using it to get rid of Vaughn and claim him as another victim of the uprising, and then named himself Arl of Denerim. By so doing, he is now in command of the greater part of the Coastlands (Highever, Denerim, and Amaranthine) and Loghain needs him for a plethora of reasons:

 

1) His supposed "political savvy" -- Howe's an idiot in my book, but I can't fault Loghain for thinking him smart.

2) a potential third front if Howe is antagonized -- though Howe is little loved, he does have a lot of martial might behind him and if Loghain does not keep him on his side this opens up another front in the civil war he would have to face. Though it is possible to win fighting on multiple fronts, it is neither easy nor something that should be allowed to happen where possible

3) The Coastlands act as a vital supply line for his troops -- or are we going to act as if a military can do everything with armor and swords alone?

 

Loghain is in no position to bring Howe to answer for his crimes, not when Teagan's comments cause the Bannorn to stir against Loghain and wage a civil war at the worst of times. Much as he might want to since he detests the man, doing so is not wise. And if anyone says "Well Howe's just one man!" then they're forgetting that when someone takes over new territory through conquest, they tend to put people loyal to them in positions of power.

 

Also, are people honestly thinking that Howe just did this after getting a word from Loghain that he wouldn't hang? The fact is Howe's attack on Highever would've taken a few months to get the details just right, and at this point the Blight has only been dealt with for a few weeks. Or are we going to suddenly act as if Loghain was planning on betraying the Couslands even before the Blight? We know Howe was doing such, because we find old notes scattered about that tell us that some of his men were not happy with the idea and needed to be dealt with lest they inform the Couslands. But such a plot takes time to cultivate.

 

Bryce only received the call from the king a few days prior to the origin. He then sent out word to Howe to bring his troops to Highever. I really doubt an entire force could be amassed in the span of a few days and then march all the way there, especially at a deliberately delayed pace. Howe had to have had the plot in action already and the Blight was just a convenient smokescreen in his mind.

 

Y'all need to get a better understanding of military and political affairs before you start talking. You act as if Howe's not an idiot, but he's the biggest idiot there is in Ferelden. He launched a full-scale assault on a castle... in the middle of a prosperous town...

[TEWR]

Cailan wasn't a fool. He was jovial, and making jokes about the war, but he was a fool in only one thing - giving his trust to a wrong man. Because, you see, as a main general of the king's army, Loghain was responsible for the whole army, for the lives of all soldiers, not just "his". If the retreat really was a military necessity, he would command retreat of the whole army. He would have send a signal to the king that the situation was too bad and couldn't be won. Cailan was proud and stubborn, but I doubt he was suicidal.

 

 

Except there were no means of easy escape for those fighting in the valley. For people to escape they would've had to fight through the Wilder areas in front of them and traverse the marshlands, as the way behind them wasn't possible.

 

Take a look at the valley in Ostagar when you do Return to Ostagar, and you tell me how forces could easily escape by turning tail when they're surrounded on their right, left, and frontal flanks due to a ****** king's idiotic charge out of the security of the fortress which would've protected their right and left flanks and are now at risk of a double envelopment.

 

And if Loghain had sent up a signal, that would've compromised his own men. Because the Darkspawn would've seen it.

 

 

Cailan was a king, not a strategist - that was Loghain's task.

 

A monarch should always be a strategist in their own right. If they can't understand how to act in wartime then they're not fit to rule.

 

You forget that Cailan insisted on a "glorious battle the bards would speak of for centuries". Ostagar is an excellent defensive structure, but defensive tactics during a war -- specifically forces staying in a fortress -- does not make for particularly glamorous or glorious battles. What ideally should've been done is that the forces of Ostagar would remain in the fortress and fight the Darkspawn from there, trying to keep the Darkspawn out (think Helm's Deep).

 

But that's a "boring" strategy. Look at how often films have castle sieges. It makes for good drama, but the reality is that most battles of this nature were not like what the films depict.

 

Cailan couldn't have that. He wanted to make a charge with the Grey Wardens and be remembered for years to come, to live up to his ****** ideals of how a king should act. So Loghain capitulates because he can't win and devises a strategy based on how much information and might he has to work with that should do the trick. The Darkspawn are increasing with every battle, so he needs to find a stratagem that will allow the Ostagar forces to outmaneuver the Darkspawn.

 

He goes with the Anvil&Hammer strategy (which works better with cavalry but alas, Bioware's engine couldn't handle it. Still, it would still work with the Teyrn's men). It will give Cailan his glorious battle while also getting to deal with the threat of the Darkspawn, in theory, provided all goes well.

 

Yet Loghain keeps insisting that Cailan sit the battle out. And Cailan will not have it. Anything that disagrees with what he wants is wrong.

 

look at how soon Cailan plays the "I am King" card.

 

"Any man who must say "I am the king" is no true king at all" -- Tywin Lannister.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes, he was disgusted. But he DID know about it and he DID approve it.

 

And as for those prisoners... it was only unintelligent of Howe if it was his own decision and if it wasn't, in fact, a cower-up for someone else. Perhaps a higher rank noble?

Unless Loghain ordered him to keep them all in his own favorite home (not to mention keep them all alive when the way they've been treated is going to necessitate killing them and making sure their remains are never found) it's still stupid. Not to mention that to the best of our knowledge there is no reason to suspect Loghain of involvement in Vaughn's imprisonment. (I was going to address the idea that Loghain might have promised Howe Highever, but TEWR did it better.)

 

 

Howe would sell out Ferelden to Orlais if it meant more power and authority for himself.

I'm not so sure about this. Howe's a veteran of the Ferelden rebellion, and his former friend (the one whose son Oswyn you save from him, as I recall) states that he believes Howe started losing his mind at the Battle of White River. I can at least believe (barring evidence to the contrary) that Howe doesn't want the Orlesians to rule Ferelden.

[Merle McClure II]

Still runs into the problem that we know for a fact that Loghain's plotting predates Ostagar due to him ordering Eamon poisoned before the battle. Considering that the elven spy whose job was to "keep an eye on things" has apparent ties to ... Howe it's hardly a stretch to conclude that the two were indeed working together for a lot longer then the pro-Loghain crowd wants to admit.

 

 

Also Howe may be an arrogant snake, but he's really only a candidate for "second biggest idiot" if you believe that Howe did everything he would have had to do for the Highever Slaughter without first making sure his neck was off the chopping block AND that Highever would have been awarded to him. Both of which require Loghain to ensure. And that is ignoring the act that Loghain is portrayed as being fairly smart and slow to trust, but yet we are supposed to believe that the really close alliance between H & L formed after Loghain wrested the throne from his own daughter? I think that perhaps you are the one without an understanding of political affairs. 

[Xetykins]

You don't see Howe and Loghain together until you complete your first main quest. Given that the events of Origins span a year, the alliance seems to only have happened a few weeks after Ostagar.

What people forget is that Howe forced himself into these positions of power. He rode to Denerim during the riots to "reinforce the garrison" but ended up using it to get rid of Vaughn and claim him as another victim of the uprising, and then named himself Arl of Denerim. By so doing, he is now in command of the greater part of the Coastlands (Highever, Denerim, and Amaranthine) and Loghain needs him for a plethora of ...

Yes because like an association and trust like that and to do what they did together develops in an instant? O.o
Then he must be a very trusting and gullible person.

[TEWR]

 

    Merle McClure II, on 30 Dec 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

    Still runs into the problem that we know for a fact that Loghain's plotting predates Ostagar due to him ordering Eamon poisoned before the battle. Considering that the elven spy whose job was to "keep an eye on things" has apparent ties to ... Howe it's hardly a stretch to conclude that the two were indeed working together for a lot longer then the pro-Loghain crowd wants to admit.

 

Problem with that is that if you look at everything for the in-game timeline of events, Gaider's word on the poisoning of Eamon doesn't work all that well.

 

HN origin states that battles in the south have already gone well. We know that Loghain was the reason for these battles going well. The Magi Origin has Jowan escape the Tower and we know he was caught just shy of Redcliffe by the Templars before he was brought to Denerim by Loghain's men, where he met Loghain. Duncan has us leave for Ostagar right away.

 

However, Gaider would have us believe that Loghain was apparently in Denerim at the time to meet up with Jowan. How, in such a short span, could Loghain fight both at Ostagar and be the reason for the victories and simultaneously be in Denerim to order Jowan on what to do? How could Loghain pull off something like that, where he's conveniently at Ostagar when they need him to be and in Denerim for this plot? You have to account for the distance one would have to travel and the amount of time it would take, to say nothing of possible stops along the way (food, rest, alternate routes, bandits, etc.)

 

It makes far more sense for Loghain to have ordered Jowan to do this after Ostagar, when he was in Denerim trying to get the nobility on his side to fight the Darkspawn. Irminric doesn't even say that the Teyrn's men cornered him and Jowan near Redcliffe IIRC, but just that they took Jowan away from him and "brought him here", though he will also say he "doesn't remember how he came to be here". So chances are, he was brought to Denerim but has no clue how he ended up in a dungeon. But then, he's also going through lyrium withdrawal, which does muddle the mind and memories per the codex.

 

Irminric cornered Jowan near Redcliffe, that much is true. But when and where the teyrn's men cornered the two of them is unknown. One assumes Redcliffe, but we don't know for certain.

 

Of course, Loghain's name is never used as being the commander of those men, so one could similarly assume they were Howe's men that brought him and Jowan to Denerim for Loghain to meet with. We were unconscious for some time and we have to account for not only how long quests would take, but journeys undertaken from destination to destination.

 

Not saying Loghain didn't order Jowan what to do. He absolutely did. And I'm not even saying that I believe Loghain's men weren't responsible for the apprehension, as they very well may have been and I personally do believe such.

 

Just that with two Teyrns on the same side and no "they bore Loghain's heraldry" comment, one could assume they were Howe's men (and Loghain would still be responsible for it because he knew of the actions undertaken and went forward with his idea to poison Eamon after Ostagar) -- more so since Berwick answers to Howe's men, who answer to Howe, who answers to Loghain whenever he wants to.

 

EDIT: Hell, this isn't even the first timeline inconsistency the series has had. The DC origin says the DN's commission banquet is "tomorrow" yet the Proving Trainer in the DN origin says the events of the DC origin happened "one week ago". To say nothing of the Anders moment for Awakening and Dragon Age II, or other things going on that **** with the timeline.

 

 

 

 

 

Also Howe may be an arrogant snake, but he's really only a candidate for "second biggest idiot" if you believe that Howe did everything he would have had to do for the Highever Slaughter without first making sure his neck was off the chopping block AND that Highever would have been awarded to him. Both of which require Loghain to ensure. And that is ignoring the act that Loghain is portrayed as being fairly smart and slow to trust, but yet we are supposed to believe that the really close alliance between H & L formed after Loghain wrested the throne from his own daughter? I think that perhaps you are the one without an understanding of political affairs. 

 

Or, you know, his plot to feed King Cailan the lies of how the Couslands were traitors to Ferelden who sided with Orlais, because he has such a heavy grievance with them for going to see Orlesian nobles after the war -- to say nothing of his ire that Fergus married an Antivan woman.

 

Even Duncan says "had we not escaped, he would've told you any story he wished to justify his treachery" along with how Eamon sends his greetings -- yet no mention of him seeming ill or anything.

 

It doesn't require Loghain to ensure safety on his part, it simply requires a person in power to be on his side. And that can be achieved through the spoiled idiot manchild Cailan who wouldn't know a good thing if it bit him in the ass because his only role was as an asswarmer for the throne or Loghain who needs this alliance after Ostagar because without it he's in an even worse spot.

 

But go ahead and remark on how I know nothing about political affairs, when I'm the one who's studied them, interacted with people who have studied them for years, debated this topic for years alongside said people, and have certainly given it more thought then the writers themselves have.

[dragonflight288]

Still runs into the problem that we know for a fact that Loghain's plotting predates Ostagar due to him ordering Eamon poisoned before the battle. Considering that the elven spy whose job was to "keep an eye on things" has apparent ties to ... Howe it's hardly a stretch to conclude that the two were indeed working together for a lot longer then the pro-Loghain crowd wants to admit.

 

 

Also Howe may be an arrogant snake, but he's really only a candidate for "second biggest idiot" if you believe that Howe did everything he would have had to do for the Highever Slaughter without first making sure his neck was off the chopping block AND that Highever would have been awarded to him. Both of which require Loghain to ensure. And that is ignoring the act that Loghain is portrayed as being fairly smart and slow to trust, but yet we are supposed to believe that the really close alliance between H & L formed after Loghain wrested the throne from his own daughter? I think that perhaps you are the one without an understanding of political affairs. 

 

Duncan: *upon arriving at Ostagar* Your uncle sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliff forces can be here in less than a week.

 

Yup....Eamon sounds poisoned at this point in time while Jowan had just barely escaped the Circle and Loghain is still at Ostagar and had been since before Jowan escaped. 

 

Strange how Loghain hired a Circle apprentice who became an apostate with the foreknowledge to know which apprentice, that this particular apprentice would escape using blood magic and wouldn't get caught by the templars. 

 

Saying Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar makes no sense whatsoever. 

[TEWR]

 

 

I'm not so sure about this. Howe's a veteran of the Ferelden rebellion, and his former friend (the one whose son Oswyn you save from him, as I recall) states that he believes Howe started losing his mind at the Battle of White River. I can at least believe (barring evidence to the contrary) that Howe doesn't want the Orlesians to rule Ferelden.

 

 

I think he would've eventually, but found some way to rationalize it to himself so that he doesn't have to feel bad about it. Howe hated his wife, who came from richer stock then he did. He does hate interacting with Orlais in the slightest -- the man you refer to says that the boy at White River died that day -- and certainly holds equal contempt for Antiva, but he's also driven by a desire for personal gain. There's only so much someone like him can get from Ferelden alone.

 

He also thinks himself far better then he truly is. Perhaps he would've thought he was getting Orlais under his authority, rather then selling out to them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think he would've eventually, but found some way to rationalize it to himself so that he doesn't have to feel bad about it.

I doubt it. My argument doesn't come from the fact that he'd feel guilty about it, because let's face it, he wouldn't. My argument comes from the fact that I believe part of what he's like comes from childhood trauma that the Orlesians were responsible for. I don't think he'd be stopped by morality, I think he'd be stopped by an arguably justified hatred.

[Spooky81]

So many questions that could have been asked of Loghain that weren't conversation options if he's recruited into the Wardens.  Questions about the alliance with Howe, more dialogue options about his fleeing Ostagar, the poisoning of Eamon and human noble Origin specific conversations that should have been available on his relationship with Howe, what he knew of the Higher takeover and Cousland massacre, his reaction of wether or not he supported the massacre.  Wonder why these dialogue options weren't included.

[dragonflight288]

So many questions that could have been asked of Loghain that weren't conversation options if he's recruited into the Wardens.  Questions about the alliance with Howe, more dialogue options about his fleeing Ostagar, the poisoning of Eamon and human noble Origin specific conversations that should have been available on his relationship with Howe, what he knew of the Higher takeover and Cousland massacre, his reaction of wether or not he supported the massacre.  Wonder why these dialogue options weren't included.

 

Either the developers didn't think of them at the time, or time constraints or budgeting issues kept the voice actors from being recorded on every bit of dialogue they wanted to put into the game. 

[TEWR]

So many questions that could have been asked of Loghain that weren't conversation options if he's recruited into the Wardens.  Questions about the alliance with Howe, more dialogue options about his fleeing Ostagar, the poisoning of Eamon and human noble Origin specific conversations that should have been available on his relationship with Howe, what he knew of the Higher takeover and Cousland massacre, his reaction of wether or not he supported the massacre.  Wonder why these dialogue options weren't included.

 

Indeed, a lot of options should have been available, though dragonflight's post covers why this may be. There are some hidden dialogue things he'll say depending on what you pick and how you act towards him and even I suppose your race, like how he probes you on how likely it is that Eamon -- the traditionalist ******* -- didn't know his only son was a mage, and thus would have had to have been sent to the Circle and been ineligible to take over Redcliffe when Eamon no longer could.

 

If Connor had gone to the Circle, that would mean that Isolde and Eamon would either have to have another child or the lands would pass to Teagan, who is also childless (and unmarried at that).

[Merle McClure II]

dragonflight .... A couple of things; (1) We don't know when Duncan passed through Redcliffe and recruited Jorey. (2) We do know that Eamon had been poisoned long enough that knights were questing for the Holy Grail already before the Warden passes through Lothering.  --- Like it or not, the fact that Eamon was poisoned prior to Ostagar really isn't disputable based simply off the in-game facts.

 

 

TEWR ... I'll take the last of your post first, as a "political expert" then you of all people should understand exactly how silly the idea that Loghain and Howe weren't working together in tangent for each others political advancement but yet everything "just happens" to fall into place as if they did really is. It's rather ... convenient to believe that the two biggest rivals for Loghain's power grab just happen to "get taken care of" right before the King meets his end. (And before anyone tries to point me to that silly blog again, I'm still inclined to believe that withdrawing was probably the right choice at Ostagar since the battle was already lost. I had forgotten about the guy who was ordered to retreat BEFORE hand, but I'm going to have to wait to double check his exact words as it'd really be a smoking gun IF true.) 

 

 

I do agree that the timelines in Dragon Age are a little loosey goosey as they'd have to be to allow the Warden both the freedom to choose which order to handle the quests and still always manage to arrive just in the nick of time but that's just the nature of the beast and for the overall storyline to be worth discussing all these years later it has to be robust enough to handle the suggested first destination, which is Redcliffe.     

[sylvanaerie]

The timeline in the game is the worst aspect of it.  Because, if you are a mage, you have time to get recruited, travel to Ostagar, have one night there and then be on the run the next day.  When you get to Lothering, you find Ser Donal who has been searching for some time for the "Holy Grail" for the cure for Eamon's condition, but is about to give up and go home. Only never to be seen again.

 

When you get to Redcliffe (which might be your first stop) this is further compounded by the information that Jowan escaped, nearly captured by Irminric (even without his phylactery--go Irminric!) taken all the way to Denerim by Loghain's men, meets with Loghain himself ("I recognized him from his portrait"), sent back to Redcliffe and ingratiated himself with the family to 'tutor' Connor and poisoned Eamon, leading up to this sorry state of affairs.  Not even if Redcliffe is late game does this make any sense at all because of Ser Donal's presence in Lothering, right after Ostagar.  

 

Wynne will mention the 'incident' with Jowan having happened a year ago, but the convo can come as early as immediately after doing the Circle (which can be your first stop).  

I loved Origins, but omg the timeline in this game made zero sense from a storytelling PoV.