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[Klidi]

Except there were no means of easy escape for those fighting in the valley. For people to escape they would've had to fight through the Wilder areas in front of them and traverse the marshlands, as the way behind them wasn't possible.

 

Take a look at the valley in Ostagar when you do Return to Ostagar, and you tell me how forces could easily escape by turning tail when they're surrounded on their right, left, and frontal flanks due to a ****** king's idiotic charge out of the security of the fortress which would've protected their right and left flanks and are now at risk of a double envelopment.

 

And if Loghain had sent up a signal, that would've compromised his own men. Because the Darkspawn would've seen it.

 

 

A monarch should always be a strategist in their own right. If they can't understand how to act in wartime then they're not fit to rule.

 

You forget that Cailan insisted on a "glorious battle the bards would speak of for centuries". Ostagar is an excellent defensive structure, but defensive tactics during a war -- specifically forces staying in a fortress -- does not make for particularly glamorous or glorious battles. What ideally should've been done is that the forces of Ostagar would remain in the fortress and fight the Darkspawn from there, trying to keep the Darkspawn out (think Helm's Deep).

 

But that's a "boring" strategy. Look at how often films have castle sieges. It makes for good drama, but the reality is that most battles of this nature were not like what the films depict.

 

Cailan couldn't have that. He wanted to make a charge with the Grey Wardens and be remembered for years to come, to live up to his ****** ideals of how a king should act. So Loghain capitulates because he can't win and devises a strategy based on how much information and might he has to work with that should do the trick. The Darkspawn are increasing with every battle, so he needs to find a stratagem that will allow the Ostagar forces to outmaneuver the Darkspawn.

 

Um, yeah, let's now qoute another fictional character about what king is right king... No, monarchs were not generals - not in the late middle age/renaissance, at which Ferelden is (loosely) based on. But, that doesn't matter, since IN THE GAME, it is said it was Loghain's plan, not Cailan's. The only thing that Cailan did that Loghain didn't want was that he joined the battle himself.

 

Imho, If Cailan sat out the battle, it would change nothing, because Loghain never intended to fight at Ostagar. There's a lot of evidence for that, if you pay attention. Howe's reinforcements never arrived, and he wasn't concerned about it all. Fergus Cousland, who was commanding Highever forces, was ordered to go scouting (which was way below his rank); the tower which was crucial for the plan, was not secured by Loghain's forces in advance. The whole 'plan' relied on two inexperienced soldiers - look at the instructions the Warden got: lit up the fire when they see ANOTHER signal (it was never explained from who) OR 1 hour after the start of the battle. In other words, REGARDLESS the situation on the field... If Loghain really planned to act according to this "strategy", you may bet he would take care of all details, whether Cailan agreed or not (it's not as if he never did things behind Marric's back during the rebellion). Even if Cailan sat out the battle, he would be abandoned and left to be overwhelmed and killed by darkspawn.

[Monica21]

You know what the biggest indicator is that Loghain and Howe were not allied during any of the Cousland murdering bit? Howe doesn't say a damn word about it when you meet him in the dungeon. Howe would sneer about having the regent on his side and most probably, whatever his plans were to take care of the regent himself. Howe is the Bond villain who tells you all his plans before you kill him. But Howe never says a word about it. There's not a single mention of Loghain or any other shady partner in the notes you find in Amaranthine. Howe talks about how much he hates your father, not about expanding his own reach. Howe says, "I deserved better." Howe attacked the Couslands as part of his own petty revenge scheme. He hated Bryce, hated the power he had, and wanted it for himself. And that's it. (Also, plot device to get to Ostagar.)

 

If Bioware wanted us to believe that Howe and Loghain were entrenched in machinations prior to Ostagar, there would be no avoiding it. It would be about as subtle as getting slapped in the face with a dead fish. We would know because they would be talking about it, Howe would have mentioned it in a cutscene to Loghain at least once, and then most likely, as he was dying. Except, he says nothing.

[DinkyD]

I'd already seen the blog trying to explain Ostagar ... not an bad albeit overly simplified argument and not really relevant to the points I actually care about. As for the thread ... a quick skimming of a selection of the posts from the ~60 page thread has left me ... rather unimpressed by the "Loghain is innocent Crowd".

 

 

And as for "author intent" ... tell me, what was the "author intent" when Alistair explains exactly when Templars first imbibe Lyruim and confirms that he never has? How about when Gaidar later claims that it was "author intent" that Templar powers "really are" powered by Lyruim after all and the only reason they didn't show it was because "They couldn't figure out how to." --HINT, simply have Alistair mention that in order to teach the Warden to be a Templar they need to first take a sip from a Lyruim potion when he agrees to unlock said spec. Oh, and don't bother recording the scene where Alistair specially says the EXACT OPOSERITE!

 

 

What was "author intent" when Tolken first wrote "The Hobbit" and later had to rewrite portions of the book in order to make it a prequel to "Lord of the Rings"? More importantly just because "the author" clearly changed his "author's intent" does that make someone reading one of the original printings of The Hobbit wrong in pointing out that there is nothing in that version to support Bilbo's ring as being "The One" or that you can apparently travel to China from the Shire?  

 

 

So basically, yeah, once an Author has released a book/movie/video game the events of said work are no longer their's to dictate however they want ... UNLESS of course they actually go back and change the events that take place in the book/video game/movie. Gaidar is ether unable or unwilling (my money is on unable) to reproduce Dragon Age Origins so anything that he (or anyone else for that matter) says which counterdicts what actually happens in the game is simply ... wrong. And blindly worshiping "author's intent" is ... silly at best.   

 

 

--EDIT--

 

 

Oh, and at the time when Origins was produced ... who was Alistair's mother? ... Does anyone seriously believe that Alistair was REALLY an 1/2 Elf in Origins/Awakening? 

 

 

The puzzling thing I noticed about the illustrations in the blog post is that they show Loghain committing his entire force and attacking from the rear , exposing his own rear side to the Darkspawn, when the author of the blog even acknowledges that the plan was for a flanking manoeuvre (i.e. from the side) . Thus, Loghain's forces wouldn't have been in that position. Which makes the arguments that rest on it pretty unsound.

 

As an aside re Alistair and the lyrium etc: totally agree - and same with Alistair's mother - if she was intended to be this Fiona all along,  why record or even write the lines that have Alistair saying the Queen was still alive when he was conceived? (both the The Calling and Alistair written by the very same author no less, if I understand correctly, so there's no possible excuse of different writer getting it wrong) If they want us to be believe all this, then they need to issue a continuity patch or something. This is why I pretty much ignore what is said by devs now, because I have no expectation of compatibility or it really was, however much they claim, intended

[dragonflight288]

 

 

dragonflight .... A couple of things; (1) We don't know when Duncan passed through Redcliffe and recruited Jorey. (2) We do know that Eamon had been poisoned long enough that knights were questing for the Holy Grail already before the Warden passes through Lothering.  --- Like it or not, the fact that Eamon was poisoned prior to Ostagar really isn't disputable based simply off the in-game facts.

 

1. We travelled through the Hinterlands to get to Ostagar, and Redcliff is in the Hinterlands. It's entirely possible we stopped by en route and it simply wasn't shown in-game as a device to get us to Ostagar. 

 

2. We are also NOT taking into account the amount of time the Warden and Alistair spent recovering in the Wilds. We are still in the Wilds meeting Dog when Loghain is in Denerim meeting with the nobility. Considering it's a three day forced march from Redcliff to Denerim, Ostagar is probably even longer, and if the march isn't forced, it's probably a few weeks give or take thanks to the sheer number of men being moved, stopping in Lothering and picking up the Bann and his men, plus how many other stops he made on the way that we aren't told about. 

 

It's not possible that Eamon could've been poisoned before Ostagar because Jowan was in the Circle while Loghain was in Ostagar and Howe in Highever, but there is time between us getting shot and us waking up to Morrigan reaching towards something on a shelf for the poisoning to happen. 

[Merle McClure II]

Yeah .... there isn't really anything to suggest that we spent WEEKS in a near coma in Flemeth's hut nor do we know what Duncan's actual route was. (Gee, it IS fun getting to play the "But you can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt!" card for a change.) --- Seriously though, Duncan passing through Redcliffe after recruiting the main character tends to run counter to the way the entire Redcliffe arc plays out as if the Warden had never set foot there. Then we also run into the problem that Eamon was already poisoned before the first cutscreen between Teagan and Loghain. Playing the "travel time card" really does cut both ways and doesn't help anyone's argument it seems.

 

 

As for the timeline, well, taking into account the "fast and loose" way that the timeline treats travel times throughout the entire game (personal jetliners for all) as long as Jowan was captured right away (And let's face it, Jowan being Jowan and not being able to evade capture even without blood tracking does make sense for the character prior to his possible growth if he's allowed to flee the second time.) the timeline fits better then trying to claim that Loghain had time to hatch the entire plot afterwards before Eamon was expected in Denerium for that first cut scene.

 

 

---

 

Oi Monica, a lack of a "dead fish to the face dying words confession" is hardly proof of innocence.

[Monica21]

 

Oi Monica, a lack of a "dead fish to the face dying words confession" is hardly proof of innocence.

 

Oh, Merle. You have no proof of guilt and you're trying to make up a scenario out of whole cloth. You don't like Loghain, I assume largely based on his actions during and after Ostagar. Is it really necessary to fabricate additional reasons?

[Merle McClure II]

Actually Monica one of the things that I find truly ironic is that I tend to have more respect for Loghain's cunning and intelligence then most members of the "Loghain is innocent Crowd" do. -- The way I view Loghain he managed to hatch and set into motion a plot to seize the throne that ultimately only failed because the Warden has PC stamped on their forehead. 

 

 

The way that you view him turns him into a muppet reject who simply "got lucky" and was foolish/blind enough to become best buddies with Howe throughout the entire game. 

[Xetykins]

You know what the biggest indicator is that Loghain and Howe were not allied during any of the Cousland murdering bit? Howe doesn't say a damn word about it when you meet him in the dungeon. Howe would sneer about having the regent on his side and most probably, whatever his plans were to take care of the regent himself. Howe is the Bond villain who tells you all his plans before you kill him. But Howe never says a word about it. There's not a single mention of Loghain or any other shady partner in the notes you find in Amaranthine. Howe talks about how much he hates your father, not about expanding his own reach. Howe says, "I deserved better." Howe attacked the Couslands as part of his own petty revenge scheme. He hated Bryce, hated the power he had, and wanted it for himself. And that's it. (Also, plot device to get to Ostagar.)

Ahh like how loghain sneered at a cousland when confronted first time in eamons estate? How loghain doesnt say a damned word about him being the tyrne of highever? Thats hardly an indicator.

@Merle sorry you missed that but after reading the calling ( after finishing the game) i knew right away alistair is fiona's. Not that im too wild about it after playing inquisition. The woman needs a good talking to.

[Monica21]

Actually Monica one of the things that I find truly ironic is that I tend to have more respect for Loghain's cunning and intelligence then most members of the "Loghain is innocent Crowd" do. -- The way I view Loghain he managed to hatch and set into motion a plot to seize the throne that ultimately only failed because the Warden has PC stamped on their forehead. 

 

 

The way that you view him turns him into a muppet reject who simply "got lucky" and was foolish/blind enough to become best buddies with Howe throughout the entire game. 

 

Kind of, yeah. We just view what happened in completely different contexts. As I previously stated, Loghain knew the situation with Cailan was coming to a head and he knew that Cailan would have to be dealt with, hence, poisoning Eamon. (Yes, confirmed by the writers.)

 

And a muppet? No. I think you are woefully misinformed about the necessity of needing Howe's forces and influence after Ostagar. Loghain could not win a war on three fronts.

[Monica21]

Ahh like how loghain sneered at a cousland when confronted first time in eamons estate? How loghain doesnt say a damned word about him being the tyrne of highever? Thats hardly an indicator.

 

*Teryn

 

Also, Loghain, Cousland, Eamon's, doesn't, Highever, and That's.

 

Punctuation.

 

[Xetykins]

*Teryn
 
Also, Loghain, Cousland, Eamon's, doesn't, Highever, and That's.
 
Punctuation.
 

OOoh solly no engulish. I no no engulish.

Didn't i ask you before to call me illiterate too? I remembered you refused.

[Monica21]

OOoh solly no engulish. I no no engulish.

Didn't i ask you before to call me illiterate too? I remembered you refused.

 

Illiteracy is the inability to read or write. Clearly you do not fit that definition.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Illiteracy is the inability to read or write. Clearly you do not fit that definition.

Not if "inability" is taken literally, anyway.

[Xetykins]

Illiteracy is the inability to read or write. Clearly you do not fit that definition.

Clearly, I can't write or you won't be such a snob about it.

But to resort on mocking my writing skills because you could not find a counter to what i wrote is pretty petty imho.

[dragonflight288]

Yeah .... there isn't really anything to suggest that we spent WEEKS in a near coma in Flemeth's hut nor do we know what Duncan's actual route was. (Gee, it IS fun getting to play the "But you can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt!" card for a change.) --- Seriously though, Duncan passing through Redcliffe after recruiting the main character tends to run counter to the way the entire Redcliffe arc plays out as if the Warden had never set foot there. Then we also run into the problem that Eamon was already poisoned before the first cutscreen between Teagan and Loghain. Playing the "travel time card" really does cut both ways and doesn't help anyone's argument it seems.

 

 

As for the timeline, well, taking into account the "fast and loose" way that the timeline treats travel times throughout the entire game (personal jetliners for all) as long as Jowan was captured right away (And let's face it, Jowan being Jowan and not being able to evade capture even without blood tracking does make sense for the character prior to his possible growth if he's allowed to flee the second time.) the timeline fits better then trying to claim that Loghain had time to hatch the entire plot afterwards before Eamon was expected in Denerium for that first cut scene.

 

 

---

 

Oi Monica, a lack of a "dead fish to the face dying words confession" is hardly proof of innocence.

 

So let me get this straight. It is your argument that Loghain got his entire army from Ostagar to Denerim in a couple of days, hired Jowan the very moment Jowan left the circle while still in Ostagar, and that your Warden was shot several times with arrows and managed to recover to such an extent that he/she was in fighting shape alongside Alistair, and that Duncan never spoke with Arl Eamon on the way to Ostagar to give Cailan and somehow magically knew the time-frame of Eamon's forces showing up. 

 

And that the bann of Lothering and all his soldiers up and left a day or so after Ostagar's battle fully prepared for the long march and for war, and were long gone by the time our Warden shows up, all in the matter of what, a couple of days tops?

 

Is that your argument?

[Monica21]

Clearly, I can't write or you won't be such a snob about it.

But to resort on mocking my writing skills because you could not find a counter to what i wrote is pretty petty imho.

 

Well, I actually have no idea what you're arguing, so that's difficult to counter. What does Loghain's response to a Cousland or saying anything about Highever's Teryn have to do with Howe not telling anyone about this supposed "deal with the devil" he had?

[DuVessa]

I love seeing two different view points when it comes to the Dragon Age series. They write so ambiguously that players/fans can debate forever! I was so intrigued and offended at the same time with the comment made about Loghain by Threnn:)  Or even Solas' comments seeing a great battle in the fade. Are they really suggesting........

[Merle McClure II]

Monica ... the problem is that I have yet to see any reasonable train of thought that leads Loghain to poisoning Eamon just because he felt things were coming to a head between him and Calian. What was Loghain's end-game? And what exactly was Loghain prepared to do if the upcoming blowup he thought was coming happened? --- Those questions need to be addressed and the answers have to make poisoning Eamon look like a reasonable preparation. --- I mean even if you believe that the poison wasn't necessarily supposed to be fatal, even in the best case it still at least risks killing him so that has to be an acceptable cost for whatever Loghain was planning to do.

 

 

And I understand you dislike the idea, but even assuming that Loghain was just starting to lay down groundwork for whatever he was planning to do for this future fight he was going to have with Calian it still begs the question of "Why just remove Eamon?"

 

 

True I do tend to discount the argument that Loghain really needed Howe just for his men, mostly because Howe only gets to keep his lands, titles, or even head with support from the Throne and even then the Civil War only happens after Loghain seizes power from Anora.

 

 

----

 

 

Dragonflight .... I think you are forgetting a couple of very important facts; (1) The Warden is recovering under the care of Flemeth herself

Spoiler

An actual Goddess remember.

. (2) The cut scene makes it clear that was the first time the Warden opened her eyes and does nothing to suggest that more then a few days had passed, no mention of being in a coma for the weeks that would be necessary to make your theory work. (3) The game takes the very concept of portraying travel times out back and beats it into a bloody pulp several times over. (4) Trying to point out travel times doesn't do you any favors either as you also have to add Jowan's travel time, the time it would take to poison Eamon, and then the Knight's travel times into the mix as well.

 

 

Yes ALL of the timelines in Dragon Age are loosey goosey, yours is no different in that regard either.

[gottaloveme]

The timeline in the game is the worst aspect of it.  Because, if you are a mage, you have time to get recruited, travel to Ostagar, have one night there and then be on the run the next day.  When you get to Lothering, you find Ser Donal who has been searching for some time for the "Holy Grail" for the cure for Eamon's condition, but is about to give up and go home. Only never to be seen again.

 

When you get to Redcliffe (which might be your first stop) this is further compounded by the information that Jowan escaped, nearly captured by Irminric (even without his phylactery--go Irminric!) taken all the way to Denerim by Loghain's men, meets with Loghain himself ("I recognized him from his portrait"), sent back to Redcliffe and ingratiated himself with the family to 'tutor' Connor and poisoned Eamon, leading up to this sorry state of affairs.  Not even if Redcliffe is late game does this make any sense at all because of Ser Donal's presence in Lothering, right after Ostagar.  

 

Wynne will mention the 'incident' with Jowan having happened a year ago, but the convo can come as early as immediately after doing the Circle (which can be your first stop).  

I loved Origins, but omg the timeline in this game made zero sense from a storytelling PoV.

 

I agree. My favourite is being at Redcliffe when Morrigan tells you she has a way to save the wardens. A dark ritual done on the eve of battle. Eve of battle huh? The battle is still at the very least a few days forced march away.

[Xetykins]

Well, I actually have no idea what you're arguing, so that's difficult to counter. What does Loghain's response to a Cousland or saying anything about Highever's Teryn have to do with Howe not telling anyone about this supposed "deal with the devil" he had?

That means they did not have to blurt out who theyre working with. Fact is that no one comments on anything even when both faced with a cousland is telling a lot. I had more respect for howe ( best of the worse kind of respect) for not ratting loghain out than loghain washing his hands on howe at the landsmeet .

Yeah, no caps and puncs again. Im lazy and on a crappy travelling phone. As long as im sort of understood and dyslexia not withstanding, i dont care.

[Xetykins]

I agree. My favourite is being at Redcliffe when Morrigan tells you she has a way to save the wardens. A dark ritual done on the eve of battle. Eve of battle huh? The battle is still at the very least a few days forced march away.

Uhmhm. Thats why i take things in the game at face value. Less headache that way.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Uhmhm. Thats why i take things in the game at face value. Less headache that way.

Brilliant idea. Now which part are you taking at face value, the "eve of battle" bit or the "several days from the capitol" bit?

[Xetykins]

Brilliant idea. Now which part are you taking at face value, the "eve of battle" bit or the "several days from the capitol" bit?

Things as in everything i guess? Cant do anything with the timeline clusterfck anyway. I wont let it distroy my enjoymemt.

[sylvanaerie]

I agree. My favourite is being at Redcliffe when Morrigan tells you she has a way to save the wardens. A dark ritual done on the eve of battle. Eve of battle huh? The battle is still at the very least a few days forced march away.

Considering she and Alistair don't like each other, she meant the battle began for her the moment she gets him to agree...

[dragonflight288]

 

Dragonflight .... I think you are forgetting a couple of very important facts; (1) The Warden is recovering under the care of Flemeth herself

Spoiler 

 

. (2) The cut scene makes it clear that was the first time the Warden opened her eyes and does nothing to suggest that more then a few days had passed, no mention of being in a coma for the weeks that would be necessary to make your theory work. (3) The game takes the very concept of portraying travel times out back and beats it into a bloody pulp several times over. (4) Trying to point out travel times doesn't do you any favors either as you also have to add Jowan's travel time, the time it would take to poison Eamon, and then the Knight's travel times into the mix as well.

 

Jowan would've been caught in Redcliff or close to it at the time Loghain is marching North. There's no indication that Jowan was captured in Denerim, and Redcliff is really only a day away from the Circle. All that is clear is that Jowan was hired by Loghain personally as per his own confession. 

 

It's not difficult for Loghain to hire him en route and for Eamon to be poisoned before our Warden wakes up and leaves the wilds in the time-frame I'm getting from the game. 

 

I just don't see it being possible, at all, for the poisoning to happen before the battle at Ostagar.