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[Willowhugger]

It's said Vivienne is going to be very much about the Circles and their benefit to Mages, looking down on Non-Circle mages like Solas and generally having been dragged kicking and screaming into "freedom" by the Templar vs. Mages war. I was contemplating the implications of freedom and how people would support the system and was thinking of something which the game may or may not deal with.

 

Specifically, that without the Circles, Mages as an identity wouldn't exist.

 

Mages are, with rare exceptions, a group without national ties. The Chantry dumps them all in the Circles together so Mages are loyal to each other, elf or human, rather than their respective home nations. The Dalish illustrate the problem of Mage freedom as their Keepers have no interest in the affairs of Mages because they don't self-identify as Circle Mages. See Morrigan for how much she despises them all.

 

But yes, if the Circles dissolve won't this kind of break any power-block mages have? Standing together, they can protect their rights but if freed, they will lose all connection to one another.

[Samahl]

It's not like systemic oppression just evaporates with one grand gesture. Even if you "free the mages", they still have to live in a society that has been conditioned to fear and revile them. Racism didn't end with the Emancipation Proclamation, nor with MLK.

[Revelat0]

Freedom won't cause a rift between them I don't think, maybe with the exception of the loyalists and isolationists, the loyalist will be desperate to fill the void and replace the templars with some outside influence, probably the inquisition (depending on your choices). Libertarians, aequitarians, and Lucrosians are likely to stay together because of their common interest which is to maintain the Circles. The Libertarians will pursue their goal of more autonomy (likely setting up mage governments for the towers and acting indepently), then some aequitarians will join the loyalists, others will try to ensure the libertarian mages don't become hungry for power and form a new magocracy (likely Vivienne), and of course the Lucrosians will see the profit in having more autonomy so they will join the libertarians.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If mages will get freedom either it will go like with tevinter or non-mages will force them back to circles or just kill them all out of fear or necessity and judging by the frequency disasters caused by mages it will be both...

And yes they will go their way unless as i said it will end another tevinter mages are unorganized and their views vary too much so they could stay together.

[Ieldra]

But yes, if the Circles dissolve won't this kind of break any power-block mages have? Standing together, they can protect their rights but if freed, they will lose all connection to one another.

Mages are already making organizations with political ambitions which are independent from imposed Circle structures. Why do you think that would change if they're free? There will be less common ground, yes, but all that means is that there will be a role for all of the fraternities and whatever grows out of them. They'll still ally for a common cause.

[riverbanks]

Completely unchecked mage freedom will lead to Tevinter. Mages there certainly do not lack for connections to each other - in fact, that they work together against everyone else is what makes them so powerful and dangerous.

[Willowhugger]

Completely unchecked mage freedom will lead to Tevinter. Mages there certainly do not lack for connections to each other - in fact, that they work together against everyone else is what makes them so powerful and dangerous.

They do that because of the Chantry, though. The Tevinter are one culture where the mages took over. If the Circles would dissolve, you could have Fereldan mages versus Orlais mages.

[BloodKaiden]

They do that because of the Chantry, though. The Tevinter are one culture where the mages took over. If the Circles would dissolve, you could have Fereldan mages versus Orlais mages.

Yeah, but the fear of mages is so intense that even if free no one wants to believe they'd gladly fight for their own nation. All they see is a mage that could be a threat. Kinda sad really.

[riverbanks]

They do that because of the Chantry, though. The Tevinter are one culture where the mages took over. If the Circles would dissolve, you could have Fereldan mages versus Orlais mages.

 

I mean, when your worst case scenario is Orlesian mages fighting Fereldan mages fighting Nevarran mages etc over who gets to run the magocracy, you still have a case of mages coming together and consolidating power, even if it's to dominate over everyone else. It doesn't matter which flavor of mage comes out on top of the catfight, the rest of the world is still screwed.

[AshenEndymion]

They do that because of the Chantry, though. The Tevinter are one culture where the mages took over. If the Circles would dissolve, you could have Fereldan mages versus Orlais mages.

 

Sure.  With Ferelden mages being in charge of Ferelden(rather than the Monarchy/Teyrns/Banns), and Orlesian mages in charge of Orlais(rather than the Emperor/Empress).

 

Regarding Vivienne, she is pro-circle, but I think it may have less to do with the Circle being a "good thing" for mages, and more because she's a First Enchanter.  If the Circles dissolve, she loses all power, and perks she had in her position.  She's not getting the same deal with a "free system of mages" purely because she was a First Enchanter(and thus, clearly, was okay with the Circles).  I'm sure Vivienne would love for mages to have more "freedoms", but like most people, if that results in her personally losing anything along the way, it's not worth it.

[Merc Mama]

Hmmm, I honestly think that the Circle does make mages care about each other alittle more, whereas free and independent makes them seem more self invovled and don't give a damn about the only people who understand their ongoing strife with demons and discrimination.

Though mages like blood & Tevinter which also have Circles or originated there, still don't care about other mages and so that makes me think that mage power/union lies mostly in their suffering and not the Circle, being persecuted by people & Chantry makes them stand together but you take that away and they will scatter and be like Solas, Tevinter mages or Keepers. 

Would this destroy mage power as we know it? 

Yes in a sense of unity and family.. But that freedom may also give rise to powerful mages that would bring a different kinda mage power to the table that like in the old days, may be a era of darkness or change.

[Willowhugger]

I mean, when your worst case scenario is Orlesian mages fighting Fereldan mages fighting Nevarran mages etc over who gets to run the magocracy, you still have a case of mages coming together and consolidating power, even if it's to dominate over everyone else. It doesn't matter which flavor of mage comes out on top of the catfight, the rest of the world is still screwed.

 

I think that kind of makes magic far more powerful than it is.

[Pierce Miller]

I'm pretty sure the circle mages are sticking together,  Plus if you were an apostate who was having trouble evading capture his whole life wouldn't you go and help fight for freedom?

[Kieran G.]

Personally I think mages need to stay in Circles. Think about Redcliff. one child mage possessed by a demon, almost destroyed an entire town. now what if the demon was able to get into an adult mage? just one mage could wipe an entire village out. Even Ander's only being helped by vengeance was able to destroy most of Hightown. That is too much power for anyone to have.

 

And i know not all mages would do that, but they all have the ability to. That's not fear, that's a fact.

[Pierce Miller]

Personally I think mages need to stay in Circles. Think about Redcliff. one child mage possessed by a demon, almost destroyed an entire town. now what if the demon was able to get into an adult mage? just one mage could wipe an entire village out. Even Ander's only being helped by vengeance was able to destroy most of Hightown. That is too much power for anyone to have.

 

And i know not all mages would do that, but they all have the ability to. That's not fear, that's a fact.

I get the feeling the mages could use that to their advantage and if they want to win then they probably should.

[Willowhugger]

Personally I think mages need to stay in Circles. Think about Redcliff. one child mage possessed by a demon, almost destroyed an entire town. now what if the demon was able to get into an adult mage? just one mage could wipe an entire village out. Even Ander's only being helped by vengeance was able to destroy most of Hightown. That is too much power for anyone to have.

 

And i know not all mages would do that, but they all have the ability to. That's not fear, that's a fact.

That issues complicated by the fact that Jowan was teaching him. We don't know if he would have been able to summon a demon without Jowan.

[Merc Mama]

Personally I think mages need to stay in Circles. Think about Redcliff. one child mage possessed by a demon, almost destroyed an entire town. now what if the demon was able to get into an adult mage? just one mage could wipe an entire village out. Even Ander's only being helped by vengeance was able to destroy most of Hightown. That is too much power for anyone to have.

 

And i know not all mages would do that, but they all have the ability to. That's not fear, that's a fact.

This is an excellent example for the Circles being schools and not life-long prisons that only loan out mages when someone needs more fire power. Mages do need to be contained and trained in their youth, but restricting love and the ability to leave the tower of their own free will makes it a prison to me, besides that, it's very sad to see the reality that mages in the tower are prevented romances and having children because the Chantry doesn't want more mages to contain.. As Cullen described it, they are fighting a loosing battle with more mages being born all over Thedas, so they do as much as they can to prevent more of them being born. Which is, depressing at best. At best the Chantry isn't protecting or helping most mages, they are just containing what many of them see as a virus or threat, especially when those Templars have had friends or themselves harmed or killed by mages. 

[AshenEndymion]

That issues complicated by the fact that Jowan was teaching him. We don't know if he would have been able to summon a demon without Jowan.

 

Connor didn't summon the demon.  The demon came to Connor in his dreams and offered him a deal.

 

The demon may not have bothered if not for Jowan poisoning Eamon.  But if Jowan wasn't present, someone else would have found a way to poison(or otherwise harm) Eamon.  Connor would have accepted the deal regardless, because he wanted his father alive.

[Kieran G.]

That issues complicated by the fact that Jowan was teaching him. We don't know if he would have been able to summon a demon without Jowan.

Many mages without Jowan teachings have been corrupted in the same way. so its not definitive that Jowan teachings taught anything in the area of demon summoning or resistance.

[Merc Mama]

That issues complicated by the fact that Jowan was teaching him. We don't know if he would have been able to summon a demon without Jowan.

He may have done it without Jowan teaching anyway.. All we know for sure is that Eamon was poisoned and Conner was desperate, so even if Jowan had been training him to ignore the demons, Conner may have reached out when the Desire Demon offered to help him. 

Untrained apostates also have the power to summon demons because they are constantly trying to invade the mage's body, if one says 'yes' it happens, there's no ritual or trick to it, just the offer of power and a weak will. 

[Kieran G.]

This is an excellent example for the Circles being schools and not life-long prisons that only loan out mages when someone needs more fire power. Mages do need to be contained and trained in their youth, but restricting love and the ability to leave the tower of their own free will makes it a prison to me, besides that, it's very sad to see the reality that mages in the tower are prevented romances and having children because the Chantry doesn't want more mages to contain.. As Cullen described it, they are fighting a loosing battle with more mages being born all over Thedas, so they do as much as they can to prevent more of them being born. Which is, depressing at best. At best the Chantry isn't protecting or helping most mages, they are just containing what many of them see as a virus or threat, especially when those Templars have had friends or themselves harmed or killed by mages. 

But what of the mages who aren't strong enough to learn those fire spells? Or resistance to fade spirits? Do they stay in there for life? Yes its sad that the mages lose many human rights, but you also must remember the amount of destruction just one mage can do. young or old. I as a regular human may not know my own strength when holding someones hands, but they might accidentally light someone on fire. does the risk outweigh the moral injustice? I think the risk does.

[fhs33721]

Connor didn't summon the demon.  The demon came to Connor in his dreams and offered him a deal.

 

The demon may not have bothered if not for Jowan poisoning Eamon.  But if Jowan wasn't present, someone else would have found a way to poison(or otherwise harm) Eamon.  Connor would have accepted the deal regardless, because he wanted his father alive.

 

Doesn't Connor say something along the lines of "Fahter bcame sick and I wanted to help. So I read Jowans books. The forbidden ones. Then she spoke to me in my dreams and offered to help me. When I agreed she suddenly was everywhere." ?

This would imply that it indeed could have ended differently without Jowan.

[AshenEndymion]

Doesn't Connor say something along the lines of "Fahter bcame sick and I wanted to help. So I read Jowans books. The forbidden ones. Then she spoke to me in my dreams and offered to help me. When I agreed she suddenly was everywhere." ?

This would imply that it indeed could have ended differently without Jowan.

 

You're saying there is causation where there isn't necessarily any.  We know that mages enter the fade every time they dream.  Connor is a mage, thus the demon meeting him in his dreams may not be because he read a book.  The demon may have come to Connor because it sensed his desires while he was in the fade, and felt it could take possession through the guise of a deal.

 

Basically, Connor read a book to save his father.  The demon came to Connor because it knew he wanted to save his father.  The demon didn't necessarily come to Connor because Connor read a book...

[TheJediSaint]

People + power - accountability= bad things happening.

 

That's just as true for mages as it is for everyone else.