458 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Then wouldnt be preferable to exile said people with magic to their own automous state, since mages cant be trusted to co-exist with the mundanes. Austrailia to my understanding was a penal colony once now its lovly place to go. Not saying it will sunshine but its a comprise

 

There are two main challenges with that: the possibility of an autonomous state that serves as a powerbase and jumping point for potentially unacceptable policies, and the question of enforcement of the exile. If you don't trust mages to peacefully co-exist with mundanes, why would you trust them to maintain their own exile and partition?

 

Of course, if the point is just the autonomy (as opposed to independence), the Circles already are autonomous enclaves. The Templars don't rule them, and most of the day-to-day running and decision making of the interior are left to the mages themselves. Templars like Meredith can't even search all the rooms without sufficient justification.

[raging_monkey]

There are two main challenges with that: the possibility of an autonomous state that serves as a powerbase and jumping point for potentially unacceptable policies, and the question of enforcement of the exile. If you don't trust mages to peacefully co-exist with mundanes, why would you trust them to maintain their own exile and partition? Of course, if the point is just the autonomy (as opposed to independence), the Circles already are autonomous enclaves. The Templars don't rule them, and most of the day-to-day running and decision making of the interior are left to the mages themselves. Templars like Meredith can't even search all the rooms without sufficient justification.

granted the kirkwall circle was a harried mess but she did overstep her bounds as KC oddly with chantry blessing. How will the mages correct themselves if they are always corrected by others. Everybody falls mages just stumble more than most give it time

[Mistic]

The point you're dancing around here is the idea of a Mage identity, rather than mage power. The two, while related, are not synonymous.

 

Mage identity is, at this point, a reality. It does exist in its current form thanks to the Circle, but we've also seen that it historically exists without it. In every Thedasian culture we've seen, mages have occupied a specific and exclusive social strata and identity regardless of the presence of a Circle system or not. Whether the Tevinter oligarchy, the Sarebaas, the Seers, Shamans, and Keepers, mages have routinely been categorized and lumped together by themselves and by outsiders. Mage identity routinely exists of its own nature, and will almost certainly continue to do so for the Circle of Magi as well. It may change slightly, but major changes will only occur over long periods of time and political divisions.

 

I think what the OP means is the fear of losing a "panmage" identity in favour of other unifying identities.

 

As you say, mage identity exists even in non-Circle societies and it will exist as long as there are people with magic and people without it. However, we also know that in several of those cases that mage identity takes a second seat to another union-driving identity. It's not very different in real life with nations, religions, political ideologies, etc.

 

The Circles, by their own existence, provide not only a clear, defined mage identity, but the only instance so far of a broader panmage identity, that is, an identity that puts "I'm mage" first and it's expected to apply universally to all of them. The end of the Circle could well mean the end of that.

 

A much more plausible way to destroy the Mage Identity comes not with mage independence, but mage defeat. If the Templars regain the position of arbiter and enforcer, they can play internal divisions amongst the mages to break the solidarity. By unevenly applying benefits and punishments, encouraging mutual suspicion and distrust, and separating the various mage interests and priorities from eachother, the Circle as a polity could fracture into its component parts- which is to say, the Fraternities. Divide the fraternities into groups with mutually exclusive goals and interests, and you could easily go from residents of the Circle identifying themselves as 'I am a Circle Mage' to 'I am a -Insert Fraternity- Mage.' When a mage would first identify as Lucrosian, and only then as a Circle Mage, the Mage polity would be broken.

 

That would be what already happens, but with the Templars becoming clever administrators instead of just wards. But I doubt that it could erase the panmage identity. For that to happen, they shouldn't be treated equally from the start, but how can you expect to do that when you have to take children "because they are mages", not "because they will become part of a fraternity in the future"? Calling it "Circle mage" or "Fraternity mage" is irrelevant, because the main distinction will always be "mage".

[Dean_the_Young]

I think what the OP means is the fear of losing a "panmage" identity in favour of other unifying identities.

 

As you say, mage identity exists even in non-Circle societies and it will exist as long as there are people with magic and people without it. However, we also know that in several of those cases that mage identity takes a second seat to another union-driving identity. It's not very different in real life with nations, religions, political ideologies, etc.

 

The Circles, by their own existence, provide not only a clear, defined mage identity, but the only instance so far of a broader panmage identity, that is, an identity that puts "I'm mage" first and it's expected to apply universally to all of them. The end of the Circle could well mean the end of that.

 

Not necessarily- or rather, not unless another identity exists to supplant it. Identity politics, like inertia, continue until something else impacts it with more momentum. There's nothing in particular waiting to do that at this time.

 

At this point, the only example we have of a mage class in which being a mage wasn't part of being the primary identity is the Dalish. It's not clear what level of identity exists in Rivain, but we may also have male mages there as well. But both of these are contexts which developed naturally over tens or even hundreds of hundreds of years. That obviously will not apply to the Circle mages in the next five, ten, or even fifty.

 

 

 

 

That would be what already happens, but with the Templars becoming clever administrators instead of just wards. But I doubt that it could erase the panmage identity.

 

 

Eh, not really. Or rather, that's not what already happens. The Fraternities exist as political sub-factions, but not as independent polities, and the Templars and Chantry have never, to our knowledge, played them against eachother for the purpose of anti-mage identity. Anti-mage unity is different, inherent with the fact that these are non-unified political positions, but unity and identity are enormously important distinctions.

 

Playing factions against identity goes beyond clever administration and into outright police state controls. Think the Soviet Union's destruction of various minority identity groups. (That may be hard, of course, since the nature of cultural erasure is that it's the failures that are still around to be called to mind.)

 

 

 

For that to happen, they shouldn't be treated equally from the start, but how can you expect to do that when you have to take children "because they are mages", not "because they will become part of a fraternity in the future"? Calling it "Circle mage" or "Fraternity mage" is irrelevant, because the main distinction will always be "mage".

 

 

Easily, if you're willing to be ruthless enough. You make the differences more compelling and relevant than the universal commonality. Everyone of them is a mage... but then, mages and mundanes are all people too, and the pan-identity can and was still broken.

 

Think of it as a reverse case of Doctor Sues's The Sneetches. Create a new class/caste/identity system, and treat it as if it's very important, and in short order the members of the arbitrary groups will as well. Only in this case instead of an invented categorization, use real categorical differences, and play them up.

[Willowhugger]

It was demon possessed. The entire female population of the Circle was possessed.
 

Since we don't know what the Seers are like, that may be a mistake.

Especially since Spirit Healer is a Class in the game and doesn't involve you becoming a monster.

Even Anders, who everyone goes to show "proves" Merril's point, did an act which was very human. The terrorism of the chantry was very much Anders.

Really, the only time he was crazy due to Justice was when he almost killed that girl.

[Dean_the_Young]

granted the kirkwall circle was a harried mess but she did overstep her bounds as KC oddly with chantry blessing.

 

There's nothing to indicate that Meredith's illegal actions in Kirkwall were with the Chantry's blessings.

 

If anything, Elthina was dealing with a subordinate who had grown strong enough to break the leash were it ever pulled. The Templars, not the Chantry, were the dominant force in Kirkwall politics, a point repeatedly emphasized multiple times in the game.

 

 

How will the mages correct themselves if they are always corrected by others. Everybody falls mages just stumble more than most give it time

 

 

Mages stumbling more is rather the reason why others shouldn't be content to rely on mages to police themselves.

 

In general, self-policing is the least reliable. The larger the costs for failure become, the less palatable it is.

[Willowhugger]

There's nothing to indicate that Meredith's illegal actions in Kirkwall were with the Chantry's blessings.

 

If anything, Elthina was dealing with a subordinate who had grown strong enough to break the leash were it ever pulled. The Templars, not the Chantry, were the dominant force in Kirkwall politics, a point repeatedly emphasized multiple times in the game.

 

 

While I doubt Inquisition will deal with it, I wonder how the Templars are waging a war without the chantry's coffers and the support of the public. Mages are hated by the public at large but it seemed that both Fereldan and Orlais' nobility had a even-to-neutral opinion of mages with Loghain even willing to give them freedom in exchange for military support.

 

 

In general, self-policing is the least reliable. The larger the costs for failure become, the less palatable it is.

Colonialism proves the opposite.

Outside groups were brought in to look over other ethnicities and....yeah. We're still dealing with the repercussions.

 

When an outside group polices you, the abuses tend to be horrible. It's still a major issue many blacks feel with white police in the United States.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since we don't know what the Seers are like, that may be a mistake.

Especially since Spirit Healer is a Class in the game and doesn't involve you becoming a monster.

Even Anders, who everyone goes to show "proves" Merril's point, did an act which was very human. The terrorism of the chantry was very much Anders.

Really, the only time he was crazy due to Justice was when he almost killed that girl.

Most abomination actions are very human. Demonic possessions are more akin to aspects of runaway ego than alien and unhuman thinking.

 

Spirits have more in common with obsessive psychological aspects than anything else. The categories of demons are just broad groupings of various different types of Human attitudes or concepts.

[The Baconer]

There's nothing to indicate that Meredith's illegal actions in Kirkwall were with the Chantry's blessings.

 

If anything, Elthina was dealing with a subordinate who had grown strong enough to break the leash were it ever pulled. The Templars, not the Chantry, were the dominant force in Kirkwall politics, a point repeatedly emphasized multiple times in the game.

 

Which would make it a problem warranting inquiry for the Seekers...

 

Another "mission accomplished" for the Chantry's intrepid enforcers!

[Willowhugger]

Which would make it a problem warranting inquiry for the Seekers...

 

Another "mission accomplished" for the Chantry's intrepid enforcers!

It's hard for the Seekers to do their job of policing Templar abuses of mages when the Lord Seeker thinks the biggest problem is they aren't abused enough.

[Dean_the_Young]

While I doubt Inquisition will deal with it, I wonder how the Templars are waging a war without the chantry's coffers and the support of the public. Mages are hated by the public at large but it seemed that both Fereldan and Orlais' nobility had a even-to-neutral opinion of mages with Loghain even willing to give them freedom in exchange for military support.

 

It's quite possible that the Templars (and Seekers) took much of the coffers and logistical support with them when they rebelled. It wouldn't just be the people in skirts with weapons, but also their friends and like-minded compatriots (and everyone else they could badger into line).

 

In fact, it's quite possible that minor chantry groups are also supporting the Templars with donations and material support. Small schism groups who think that the Templars are right.

 

 

 

Colonialism proves the opposite.

Outside groups were brought in to look over other ethnicities and....yeah. We're still dealing with the repercussions.

 

When an outside group polices you, the abuses tend to be horrible. It's still a major issue many blacks feel with white police in the United States.

 

Hm? You say it's the opposite, but you just illustrated how colonialism is a great vindication: colonizers were horrible at self-regulating themselves, and routinely committed abuses and crimes that were never held accountable to because the only people in a position to do so were themselves. Unaccountable police who answer only to themselves are another example, not the disproof. These are both examples of how self-policing of power groups was unreliable and had real and enduring harms.

 

Effective policing of conduct is a system of interlocking checks in balances in which multiple parties have oversight over both the target population and each other. One of the aspects that saw Kirkwall breakdown was the fact that the checks and balances that were supposed to be in play broke- including that the Templars gained political power to deter Chantry intrusion and reduced oversight when it was needed most.

[Cainhurst Crow]

What's gonna happen, most likely, is a large majority of mages are going to be left disenfranchised. The circles, their home, is now gone. There's not going to be any sort of system to keep mages of a particular circle from being torn from one another through the actions of the factions within the nations, being taken by the factions of templars around, or being taken by their respective nations in order to give those countries an edge, even if the mages don't identify themselves as belonging to said country ((See Earth Kingdom response to airbenders in ledgend of korra season 3.)).

 

I'm willing to bet that despite how anders felt, most mages weren't as sick with the circle system as he was to completely throw it out. The fraternity leaders, the extremist who have shown willing to lie, kill, and frame others in order to get their positions, most likely won't care as long as their goals are reached.

 

The mage fraternities will rise to power as a cartel like system, offering "protection" from the various enemies they created to sick upon their fellow mage brethren. They probably find ways to have all the political power and clout.

 

Your average mage though, just wanting to live their life, deal with having their powers, and didn't ask for this war or revolution, is going to get the short end of the stick, and its going right up where the sun doesn't shine.

[Willowhugger]

 

Hm? You say it's the opposite, but you just illustrated how colonialism is a great vindication: colonizers were horrible at self-regulating themselves, and routinely committed abuses and crimes that were never held accountable to because the only people in a position to do so were themselves. Unaccountable police who answer only to themselves are another example, not the disproof. These are both examples of how self-policing of power groups was unreliable and had real and enduring harms.

 

Effective policing of conduct is a system of interlocking checks in balances in which multiple parties have oversight over both the target population and each other. One of the aspects that saw Kirkwall breakdown was the fact that the checks and balances that were supposed to be in play broke- including that the Templars gained political power to deter Chantry intrusion and reduced oversight when it was needed most.

 

Colonizers had no desire to police themselves and yet they policed the people underneath them. So that's kind of the irony there because the Mages from their perspective are not the colonizers, but the colonized.

 

They would want to regulate themselves because the TEMPLARS are horribly at policing themselves.

And that includes the Seekers.

 

Maybe the Mages should be the ones to investigate the Templars.

[Dean_the_Young]

Which would make it a problem warranting inquiry for the Seekers...

 

Sort of how like AIDS is a problem warranting an immune system.

 

When the problem interferes with the normal solution, it's easy to cascade to a point where normally preventable issues becomes severe.

 

 

 

Another "mission accomplished" for the Chantry's intrepid enforcers!

 

Eh, the Seekers really aren't enforcers. Plus, it's not really clear at what point in Kirkwall that the Seekers would have had actual issue to find with Meredith to the point of opposing her rather than siding with her.

 

In Act 1 and Act 2, Meredith was unquestionably in the right: she was cracking down on Templar corruption that was letting apostates out, she wasn't committing abuses, and the Templar who was doing the main violations was doing so in secret against her direct position. Meredith isn't politically out of control, and the city is tense with the looming Qunari issue. The Mage issue hasn't even risen as a major issue of concern, and while Meredith is uncompromising she isn't an extremist.

 

In Act 3, Meredith is a bloody hero, has rocketed to the de facto ruler, and there is a very real blood mage insurgency in the streets and actual unlawful treason within her ranks (both mage and Templar) against her. The primary concern (which does get the Divine's Left Hand) is that the troubles are being flamed by external actors. Meredith is a hardliner, but an investigation could and likely would find her justified in many of her positions... and deem other issues the bigger concern and more worthy of focus. Remember, at this point an Exalted March is being considered, and destabilizing the Templars and dominant political ally (if not subordinate) of the Chantry on the eve of it may not be deemed a good idea.

 

If a Seeker was sent too early (and for all we know, they might have been), there would have been little to find. If a Seeker was sent too late, then Meredith may well have been deemed the unpleasant lesser evil to a different problem.

[Cainhurst Crow]

 

Colonialism proves the opposite.

Outside groups were brought in to look over other ethnicities and....yeah. We're still dealing with the repercussions.

 

When an outside group polices you, the abuses tend to be horrible. It's still a major issue many blacks feel with white police in the United States.

 

Not to rain on this off topic pity party, but while the effects of colonialism have been great, black americans don't have it nearly as bad as their fellow black brethren in places that actually suffered foreign occupation and rule. Trying to equate the two, especially in this day and age, only serves to generate more problems within the united states black community then solve them.

 

Viewing an issue as "there was oppression in the past so it excuses the short comings of the present" is well and good, however it leads to justification of truly deplorable actions and a absolution of responsibility for their own actions. Essentially telling black people "it's alright to have high rates of violence and death in your communities cause we know you lack the capability to control yourselves."

[raging_monkey]

Colonizers had no desire to police themselves and yet they policed the people underneath them. So that's kind of the irony there because the Mages from their perspective are not the colonizers, but the colonized. They would want to regulate themselves because the TEMPLARS are horribly at policing themselves.And that includes the Seekers. Maybe the Mages should be the ones to investigate the Templars.

doesnt that lead to the argument of bias and fenris' perceive veiw of tevinter

[Dean_the_Young]

Colonizers had no desire to police themselves and yet they policed the people underneath them. So that's kind of the irony there because the Mages from their perspective are not the colonizers, but the colonized.

 

There is irony, but not disproof of the principle of the weakness of self-policing. It doesn't matter what your power relationship is with others- if your own limitations are the self-imposed and self-enforced, it's not likely to be stellar.

 

The 'best' (in terms of conduct) police groups are the ones that themselves policed by others. There are different ways to do this, including participation from the policed. (But, it should be noted, that police are not directed and controlled by the policed either: a police agency that is directed by the subjects it is supposed to police is ineffective and returns to the dynamic of the policed group needing to be self-policing.)

 

 

 

They would want to regulate themselves because the TEMPLARS are horribly at policing themselves.

And that includes the Seekers.

 

 

All things considered, I'd disagree. They have a healthy fear of internal security, a reasonable diversity of opinion and viewpoint, and malevolent agents who would defy policy generally have to do so discretely and secretly for fear of punishment. It isn't until an extremely exceptional case of extreme context (the blood mage radicalists in Kirkwall), a secret insanity-inducing device, and an unusually empowered authority figure complicit in the crimes that the Templar conduct in Kirkwall ran into systemic issues, and even that triggered an outright coup attempt against the perpetrators.

 

That's... pretty good, actually. A disciplined and well-established conducting an internal coup in an attempt to remove an abusive commander? That's virtually unheard of in professional militaries, which the Templars come close to. Certainly better than, say, Hawke and Co's efforts.
 

 

Maybe the Mages should be the ones to investigate the Templars.

 

They do that in Tevinter.

 

Self-policing doesn't become more effective when you outsource it to someone you can control.

[raging_monkey]

Not to rain on this off topic pity party, but while the effects of colonialism have been great, black americans don't have it nearly as bad as their fellow black brethren in places that actually suffered foreign occupation and rule. Trying to equate the two, especially in this day and age, only serves to generate more problems within the united states black community then solve them. Viewing an issue as "there was oppression in the past so it excuses the short comings of the present" is well and good, however it leads to justification of truly deplorable actions and a absolution of responsibility for their own actions. Essentially telling black people "it's alright to have high rates of violence and death in your communities cause we know you lack the capability to control yourselves."

Sort of agree with this as a african american but a bit extreme view

[Willowhugger]

Not to rain on this off topic pity party, but while the effects of colonialism have been great, black americans don't have it nearly as bad as their fellow black brethren in places that actually suffered foreign occupation and rule. Trying to equate the two, especially in this day and age, only serves to generate more problems within the united states black community then solve them.

 

Viewing an issue as "there was oppression in the past so it excuses the short comings of the present" is well and good, however it leads to justification of truly deplorable actions and a absolution of responsibility for their own actions. Essentially telling black people "it's alright to have high rates of violence and death in your communities cause we know you lack the capability to control yourselves."

 

That would be assuming I'm referring to present-day Black Americans.

But I'm not really making a point about Black Americans and police but the Templars and Mages.

Sorry for bringing in RL stuff. I just did so as an example of how people don't appreciate outsiders regulating them and how this leads to othering.

[Inprea]

Then wouldnt be preferable to exile said people with magic to their own automous state, since mages cant be trusted to co-exist with the mundanes. Austrailia to my understanding was a penal colony once now its lovly place to go. Not saying it will sunshine but its a comprise

 

If only they would give exile as an option. It wouldn't even be hard to keep them in exile. Each exiled mage could have a phylactery made. If I'm not mistaken they glow brighter as the mage gets closer. You'd just need to develop a chart of luminescence versus distance and you'd have an effective means of judging how far away that mage is. I'd want research done to better refine the phylacteries though so they couldn't be turned into a weapon anymore then a tracking device is.

 

They would be none mage children born to the mages of course. There would naturally be plenty of work in such a society though and with human resources low, at least in the beginning, I doubt they could afford to waste them. Personally I'd like to see a scene with a master mage and one or two apprentices tending a mystic flame while several blacksmiths worked to craft weapons. It'd be a lot easier then asking the mage to maintain the flame and work the forge.

[raging_monkey]

That would be assuming I'm referring to present-day Black Americans.But I'm not really making a point about Black Americans and police but the Templars and Mages.Sorry for bringing in RL stuff. I just did so as an example of how people don't appreciate outsiders regulating them and how this leads to othering.

thing ive learn on the bsn RL examples used responsibly makes debates easier comprehend and have pleasent discourse

[Dean_the_Young]

That would be assuming I'm referring to present-day Black Americans.

Your use of the word 'still' rather implied.

 

But I'm not really making a point about Black Americans and police but the Templars and Mages.

Sorry for bringing in RL stuff. I just did so as an example of how people don't appreciate outsiders regulating them and how this leads to othering.

 

No one likes outsiders regulating them. It doesn't mean a lack of outsiders regulating is more effective.

 

Of course, it's a bit of a false delimma as well- good policing has both self-regulation, community input, and external oversight. You have the professional, the subject audience, and the evaluator working in tandem to cover eachother's blind spots.

[Cainhurst Crow]

That would be assuming I'm referring to present-day Black Americans.

But I'm not really making a point about Black Americans and police but the Templars and Mages.

Sorry for bringing in RL stuff. I just did so as an example of how people don't appreciate outsiders regulating them and how this leads to othering.

 

 

The phrasing "It's still a major issue many blacks feel with white police in the United States." kinda implys heavily that you were talking about modern african americans, but I'm willing to drop this before it goes further and gets the thread locked.

 

About mages investigating templars, it only works if templars are still allowed to investigate mages, unobstructed. Otherwise the problem doesn't get solved, only shifted slightly. Suddenly its not corrupt templars persecuting mages, but corrupt mages stonewalling legitimate investigations. Just look at orsino, and you can see the dangers of an uncooperative circle at work in allowing a mage serial killer to go unpunished.

[Dean_the_Young]

If only they would give exile as an option. It wouldn't even be hard to keep them in exile. Each exiled mage could have a phylactery made. If I'm not mistaken they glow brighter as the mage gets closer. You'd just need to develop a chart of luminescence versus distance and you'd have an effective means of judging how far away that mage is. I'd want research done to better refine the phylacteries though so they couldn't be turned into a weapon anymore then a tracking device is.

 

The phylactery is the trick. Generally it's one of those 'must go' points for most people.

 

The question though, of course, is if you consider mage children born and raised in this exile community to be a concern if they aren't phylacteried. An untracable mage-child raised by a mage community is a concern, albeit one already existing with Tevinter. It's just a matter if you're willing to deliberatly take and expand that risk, rather than deal just with what you can't influence.

 

 

 

They would be none mage children born to the mages of course. There would naturally be plenty of work in such a society though and with human resources low, at least in the beginning, I doubt they could afford to waste them. Personally I'd like to see a scene with a master mage and one or two apprentices tending a mystic flame while several blacksmiths worked to craft weapons. It'd be a lot easier then asking the mage to maintain the flame and work the forge.

 

 

Why not? With magic he could very likely do both, and create better weapons than the blacksmiths to boot.

[raging_monkey]

All lets brainstorm a reasonable solution cause we are dancing in circles (pun intended)