458 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Did you even bother to check what that post was in response to?

Not as closely as I'd thought.

 

My response to your actual point would be that there are votes in Ferelden, however. Not just anyone has a voice, but there are votes.

[Master Warder Z_]

money and status is the non-magi equalvilent of magic. It just takes time for them to do what magi do and arguably more invasive ways.

 

That's funny, the inside of your head is sacrosanct until magic comes into play.

 

So "invasive" that's a  joke.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not as closely as I'd thought.

 

My response to your actual point would be that there are votes in Ferelden, however. Not just anyone has a voice, but there are votes.

 

My point was that none of the societies lob suggested had any of those mages elected, they were just automatically appointed because they are mages.

 

It's a pseudo hereditary title transfer.

[raging_monkey]

New word to add to internal dictionary thank you lol

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

My point was that none of the societies lob suggested had any of those mages elected, they were just automatically appointed because they are mages.

 

It's a pseudo hereditary title transfer.

I don't think any of the voters in Ferelden are elected.

[raging_monkey]

Nah its more of a land owner thing (forget the name)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nah its more of a land owner thing (forget the name)

The landowners are called "freeholders." I don't think they're allowed to vote though. I think you need to be at least a bann (ie lord.)

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think any of the voters in Ferelden are elected.

 

And?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And?

Sorry. Really wasn't paying attention.

 

Edit: In my defense, the original point was about five pages ago.

[raging_monkey]

The landowners are called "freeholders." I don't think they're allowed to vote though. I think you need to be at least a bann (ie lord.)

yes something like as a ban and up you can often vote or deciede the monarchy when a conflict of succussion arises which is what the landsmeet was in origins, if im not wrong

[Shadow Quickpaw]

"You can't condemn a race to extinction based on what MIGHT happen." ME3, Shepard to the Salarian Dalatrass. Genophage parallels, and the Bioware "Paragon" (good in terms of Western, Greek, democratic-based societies) response is to give the Krogan another chance to redeem themselves.

 

Regardless, the supposed "Bad" system of the Imperium has dealt with... how many Demonic incidents? None that are known (not that they haven't happened, just that we don't know about them). In Andrastian Circles? QUITE A LOT. Meaning both systems are inherently broken, and need fixing.

 

Ergo, the Tevinter Imperium seems a much better place to learn self-control.

 

Oh, and the Dalish Keepers? The Clan watches over them. Again: how many catastrophes  from that system? NONE THAT WE KNOW OF.

[Augustei]

My point was that none of the societies lob suggested had any of those mages elected, they were just automatically appointed because they are mages.

 

It's a pseudo hereditary title transfer.

No no, clearly the point he has brought up seemingly over 1000 times has some merit, They are great examples on how its done. Put the mages in charge. Clearly the tribal societies know more about governance that the silly alleged "sophisticated" nations.

[Augustei]

Oh, and the Dalish Keepers? The Clan watches over them. Again: how many catastrophes  from that system? NONE THAT WE KNOW OF.

Except every Dalish clan we've ever encountered. From the one who summoned a spirit to create a lycanthropy curse that then came back to bite his clan in the behind.
Then the one in DA2 with a First summoning a Pride demon to fix a mirror he can use to get into our world and attack Kirkwall. And the Keeper putting said demon into herself
Then the Clan in The Masked Empire that got wiped out by a demon they summoned.

[TheKomandorShepard]

"You can't condemn a race to extinction based on what MIGHT happen." ME3, Shepard to the Salarian Dalatrass. Genophage parallels, and the Bioware "Paragon" (good in terms of Western, Greek, democratic-based societies) response is to give the Krogan another chance to redeem themselves.

 

Regardless, the supposed "Bad" system of the Imperium has dealt with... how many Demonic incidents? None that are known (not that they haven't happened, just that we don't know about them). In Andrastian Circles? QUITE A LOT. Meaning both systems are inherently broken, and need fixing.

 

Ergo, the Tevinter Imperium seems a much better place to learn self-control.

 

Oh, and the Dalish Keepers? The Clan watches over them. Again: how many catastrophes  from that system? NONE THAT WE KNOW OF.

None zathrian curse?Merril and Marethari?Velanna rampage? Imshael? At that most well almost all clans we saw only clan that didn't create some kind of disaster was clan from redemption. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Which makes their continued absence even more puzzling, even as said circumstances grew increasingly exceptional.

We don't know that they had a continued absence. We know they had at least one presence, Leliana, we have nearly half a decade in which we the player have absolutely no clue what did or did not occur in the Circle because the game didn't even go through the period, and it isn't even until Act 3 in which Hawke gets any access into the Circle itself.

 

 

 

 

 

The person who represents the Chantry as an entity and dictates Chantry doctrine. They are Chantry enforcers to the same extent that the Ben-Hassrath enforce the Qun at the behest of the Ariqun.

 

 

The Ben-Hassrath are a major institution and professional spy agency that serve the Qunari civilization as a whole and exist everywhere the Qunari do and many of the places they do not. The Seekers are a small group of personal investigators for the Divine who are rarely around and even more rarely involved. The scale is completely different.

 

 

These were not non-problems or even modest. The Gallows' dysfunction is noted to be exceptional, both on the forums and within the game.

 

 

Forgive me if I laugh at the pretense of authority from forum consensus, which would imply that the two greatest issues of Thedas are mage independence and an elven revolution despite both being minority positions in-setting, and care only a little bit more about within the focus of the game... where the primary source of claims of the Gallows system dysfunction was Anders, a source so measured and unbiased that he repeatedly made hyperbolic and outright false claims of what was actually happening.

 

 

The unprecedented creation of Templar Abominations, for example, was stopped by a third party.

 

Key word being 'stopped.' By the time it was suspected, a Templar investigation was already under way, and by the time it was confirmed it was also resolved. What, pray tell, is an Agent of the Divine supposed to do at that point: stand around and go 'yeah, that's a dead abomination alright'?
 

 

Within the same time frame, an entire unit of Templars is found slain in the Chantry with no explanation as to why. While this might not warrant Seeker investigation at this time, it should certainly attract their attention (which it apparently did).

 

 

The Templars found slain in the Chantry were a part of the internal Templar what's-his-butt's internal conspiracy, which was ultimately also stopped.

 

 

As one of the key members of the mage underground, Anders was most certainly a public menace, even before Hawke becomes champion.

 

This site lacks a good eyeroll.

 

The mage underground has existed as an ongoing concern well short of 'public menace' for some time, and has likely existed in some form for centuries. It is an ongoing sore, but not one that has ever been suggested to fall within the purview of the Seekers. By the time Anders in particular is identified, there are real and political obstacles to his apprehension.
 

 

Hawke him/herself aids Anders in killing one of the Templars' commanding officers, Ser Alrik, and if Hawke is an apostate as well, Meredith is well aware of their presence within the city.

 

Meredith is also operating under the same restrictions and realities that the Chantry is and a Seeker would be: Hawke is too powerful to confront directly without extreme cost, even if you were inclined to confront the public menace that is a key player in trying to prevent an outbreak of violence with the Qunari/saved the city from the Qunari and skyrocketed past the nobility.

[Dean_the_Young]

So can any corrupt leader.

 

Only if the corrupt mundane leader has access to blood mages who can alter minds.

 

Which is a separate boon of the Chantry's de-politicization and de-nationalization of mages. The only corrupt leaders who have access to messing with the minds of their rivals are leaders so corrupt that they've crossed the ultimate moral arbitrator and one of the primary political powers of Thedas.
 

[Mistic]

Eh, the Seekers really aren't enforcers. Plus, it's not really clear at what point in Kirkwall that the Seekers would have had actual issue to find with Meredith to the point of opposing her rather than siding with her.

 

In Act 1 and Act 2, Meredith was unquestionably in the right: she was cracking down on Templar corruption that was letting apostates out, she wasn't committing abuses, and the Templar who was doing the main violations was doing so in secret against her direct position. Meredith isn't politically out of control, and the city is tense with the looming Qunari issue. The Mage issue hasn't even risen as a major issue of concern, and while Meredith is uncompromising she isn't an extremist.

 

In Act 3, Meredith is a bloody hero, has rocketed to the de facto ruler, and there is a very real blood mage insurgency in the streets and actual unlawful treason within her ranks (both mage and Templar) against her. The primary concern (which does get the Divine's Left Hand) is that the troubles are being flamed by external actors. Meredith is a hardliner, but an investigation could and likely would find her justified in many of her positions... and deem other issues the bigger concern and more worthy of focus. Remember, at this point an Exalted March is being considered, and destabilizing the Templars and dominant political ally (if not subordinate) of the Chantry on the eve of it may not be deemed a good idea.

 

If a Seeker was sent too early (and for all we know, they might have been), there would have been little to find. If a Seeker was sent too late, then Meredith may well have been deemed the unpleasant lesser evil to a different problem.

 

I think there's another issue in Kirkwall. The political one. The elephant in the room.

 

In 9:21 the Chantry deposed the legitimate ruler of Kirkwall, Viscount Perrin Threnhold. Yes, it wasn't just the Templars; the Divine ordered the Templars to push Perrin and Grand Cleric Elthina tried and imprisoned him. Perrin had opposed the Templars and had the Knight-Commander killed, after the same Templars pushed him under the Divine's orders. Why? Because he was charging taxes to Orlesian ships. The ultiamte reason the Chantry overthrew a legitimate ruler was because he was causing harm ot Orlesian interests.

 

Let it sink for a moment. In normal or large kingdoms, like Ferelden or Orlais, Chantry forces can't pose a serious threat to sovereignty. Even the ubber-badass Grey Wardens were kicked out by the Fereldan king in the past. However, the Free Marches are composed by small kingdoms or city-states. If I was a Marcher ruler, I would become nervous, so it's no wonder the Chantry would try to preserve the illusion of "all's well that ends well", putting a puppet leader in Kirkwall (even if it meant breaking their promises to the nobility).

 

By Act 3, however, Meredith is out of control. "De facto ruler" is already overstepping her limits. Sooner or later she would have clashed with the nobility, and then the whole Chantry would have had a problem.

 

If a Seeker was sent too early (and for all we know, they might have been), there would have been little to find. If a Seeker was sent too late, then Meredith may well have been deemed the unpleasant lesser evil to a different problem.

 

Mm? The Seekers were sent too late. Three years too late. And no "unpleasant lesser evil"; Cassandra found her at fault, and the Chantry is looking for her killer's aid to solve the Mage-Templar War. So it's Hawke who is actually deemed the lesser evil in-game.

[The Baconer]

We don't know that they had a continued absence. We know they had at least one presence, Leliana, we have nearly half a decade in which we the player have absolutely no clue what did or did not occur in the Circle because the game didn't even go through the period, and it isn't even until Act 3 in which Hawke gets any access into the Circle itself.

 

Leliana confirms a few things in her appearance in Act 3: that, despite everything that Hawke and Meredith has done to fix things both inside and outside the Circle, the situation has continued to go to **** (to such an extent that they want to evacuate Elthina), and that it is highly publicized. She states that the Divine thinks it is the "Greatest threat to Thedas since the Qunari Invasion".

 

So, instead of increasing Seeker presence, they decide to bank on hoping that maybe this time, Meredith can bring it under control. 

 

 

The Ben-Hassrath are a major institution and professional spy agency that serve the Qunari civilization as a whole and exist everywhere the Qunari do and many of the places they do not. The Seekers are a small group of personal investigators for the Divine who are rarely around and even more rarely involved. The scale is completely different.

 

While their funding, active membership, and methods may hinder them in fulfilling their directive (problems to be corrected), it does not change their directive.

 

 

Key word being 'stopped.' By the time it was suspected, a Templar investigation was already under way, and by the time it was confirmed it was also resolved. What, pray tell, is an Agent of the Divine supposed to do at that point: stand around and go 'yeah, that's a dead abomination alright'?
 

The Templars found slain in the Chantry were a part of the internal Templar what's-his-butt's internal conspiracy, which was ultimately also stopped.

 

Yes, while it is rather fortuitous that a demi-god just happens to walk along and solve most of their problems for them, it should not be standard procedure to wait for this event to occur.

 

And that there are multiple Templar conspiracies within the Gallows is cause for investigation.

 

 

Forgive me if I laugh at the pretense of authority from forum consensus, which would imply that the two greatest issues of Thedas are mage independence and an elven revolution despite both being minority positions in-setting, and care only a little bit more about within the focus of the game... where the primary source of claims of the Gallows system dysfunction was Anders, a source so measured and unbiased that he repeatedly made hyperbolic and outright false claims of what was actually happening.

 

I was talking about the assertion that the Gallows should be considered the exception to the rule. And, believe me, Anders is the last source of information I would ever cite concerning Circle procedure. I define the Gallows as dysfunctional going by the, well, numerous events of literal dysfunction that we witness firsthand, along with a few other personal accounts that are primarily citizen or Templar.

 

 

This site lacks a good eyeroll.

 

The mage underground has existed as an ongoing concern well short of 'public menace' for some time, and has likely existed in some form for centuries. It is an ongoing sore, but not one that has ever been suggested to fall within the purview of the Seekers. By the time Anders in particular is identified, there are real and political obstacles to his apprehension.

 

Every Circle in Thedas suffers from individual mages who rebel and attempt to flee. These apostates are usually found and returned to the Circle or mercifully killed if they have fallen to demonic temptation. Until now, I have never served anywhere that the populace does not fully cooperate in hunting these rebels.

 

Here in Kirkwall, citizens actually help rebel mages escape. Escaped apostates have survived their freedom long enough to form the "the mage underground," a network that feeds and shelters escapees and even transports apostates into remote areas of the Free Marches and beyond our easy reach.

 

Again, rather exceptional circumstances.

 

 

Meredith is also operating under the same restrictions and realities that the Chantry is and a Seeker would be: Hawke is too powerful to confront directly without extreme cost, even if you were inclined to confront the public menace that is a key player in trying to prevent an outbreak of violence with the Qunari/saved the city from the Qunari and skyrocketed past the nobility.

 

 

Meredith has no problem with coercing Hawke into doing Templar work. I fail to see how a session of questioning would somehow be crossing a line by this point.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Oh, and the Dalish Keepers? The Clan watches over them. Again: how many catastrophes  from that system? NONE THAT WE KNOW OF.

There are at least two, and each can lead to the extinction of that Keeper's clan.

[Master Warder Z_]

There are at least two, and each can lead to the extinction of that Keeper's clan.

 

Do you not count the one in TME?

 

Which did lead to a Clan's extinction, all without PC help even!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Do you not count the one in TME?

 

Which did lead to a Clan's extinction, all without PC help even!

I only learned about that one after reading back through the forum. The Dalish really haven't got the whole "mage" thing figured out, have they?

[Mistic]

I only learned about that one after reading back through the forum. The Dalish really haven't got the whole "mage" thing figured out, have they?

 

In TME clan's defense, the Elders and the whole clan knew it and allowed it, hoping it would unveil a weapon of mass destruction a nice Arlathan artifact for them. So it wasn't a matter of mages abusing their power, but a group biting off more than they could chew.

[Master Warder Z_]

I only learned about that one after reading back through the forum. The Dalish really haven't got the whole "mage" thing figured out, have they?

 

No not really, you don't summon elder demons and then expect to dictate their terms if you don't have the means to command it.

 

I mean if the lore is to be believed, that back in the early, early days those four taught humanity blood magic.

 

I mean seriously, how stupid do you have to be to bring one of them into the world.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In TME clan's defense, the Elders and the whole clan knew it and allowed it, hoping it would unveil a weapon of mass destruction a nice Arlathan artifact for them. So it wasn't a matter of mages abusing their power, but a group biting off more than they could chew.

Now I think calling it a WMD is a bit much. Having looked up what happened, I think that the Eluvians could be weaponized, but that really doesn't look like their original intent. (Or were the Dalish hoping to get something else?)

[TheJediSaint]

Now I think calling it a WMD is a bit much. Having looked up what happened, I think that the Eluvians could be weaponized, but that really doesn't look like their original intent. (Or were the Dalish hoping to get something else?)

They were looking for something that would give them power.  I don't think they had any real idea what that power was, but they were willing to summon a demon to get it.