They were looking for something that would give them power. I don't think they had any real idea what that power was, but they were willing to summon a demon to get it.
Well, considering that the most obvious form power would take to a group that's so badly outgunned is a WMD, I withdraw my objection.
They were looking for something that would give them power. I don't think they had any real idea what that power was, but they were willing to summon a demon to get it.
Morons.
Most likely there would be an attempt to hold onto the old faction (5 Enchanter faction), but it will be relatively quickly overtaken by nationalistic interests because new generations of mages won't be placed in an environment that would foster a sense of republican ideas.
Unless, of course, the Mages are now going to do what the Chantry did and seek out and place Mage children away from their parents/countries.
Would be simpler to just create a seprate white chantry aligned automous mage state since mage are a "threat" to mundanes
Just one would be a bit difficult. The merit of having several Circles is that it's easier to get a mage to one, and that it's easier for the Wardens or the messengers of a rich, sick noble/merchant/whatever to get to the mages themselves. (Also that it's less of a pain for the mage's family to visit the place, if they're not too afraid to and are able to scrape together the resources. And if they're allowed, which I can see an argument they should be.)
No no, clearly the point he has brought up seemingly over 1000 times has some merit, They are great examples on how its done. Put the mages in charge. Clearly the tribal societies know more about governance that the silly alleged "sophisticated" nations.
Both sides has exhaustively argued their own points for the better part of five years, including you. However, you seem to continue to miss my point. I've stressed that there are non-Andrastian societies that have drastically different views about mages and magic than the one held by the Andrastian Chantry. If civility escapes you, you're welcome to refrain from mentioning me in the future.
Except every Dalish clan we've ever encountered. From the one who summoned a spirit to create a lycanthropy curse that then came back to bite his clan in the behind.
Then the one in DA2 with a First summoning a Pride demon to fix a mirror he can use to get into our world and attack Kirkwall. And the Keeper putting said demon into herself
Then the Clan in The Masked Empire that got wiped out by a demon they summoned.
First, everyone was in trouble in Origins - humans, dwarves, and elves. There was also the Fifth Blight, which was being ignored for the most part while a civil war raged on for a year between two warring human factions.
Second, Merrill didn't summon Audacity - the spirit was summoned over a millennia ago by either the Arlathan elves or Tevinter Magisters during the war between Arlathan and Tevinter - it's mentioned by Merrill that no one in the Sabrae Clan knows which side summoned the spirit. Furthermore, Merrill relied on the lore she studied and information she extrapolated on the shard to build the mirror - as WoG confirmed.
Third, the chevalier Michel released the spirit of choice - not Clan Virnehn.
Both sides has exhaustively argued their own points for the better part of five years, including you. However, you seem to continue to miss my point. I've stressed that there are non-Andrastian societies that have drastically different views about mages and magic than the one held by the Andrastian Chantry. If civility escapes you, you're welcome to refrain from mentioning me in the future.
While he could be more polite about it, I will note that his basic point (namely that certain individuals among the Dalish mages provide a pretty good argument for the view of magic held by the Andrastian chantry) is a decent one. (Maybe the Rivaini or the Avvar are doing better, but we haven't seen enough to know.)
So obviously both groups (non-mage and mage) are capable of releasing arcane forces and energies(capable used loosely) so that somewhat defeats the arguement that magi are dangerous
Not really. The mages can do so without outside help, and are far less limited. A dim knight can unleash a demon if he finds himself in an ancient ruin and isn't careful. A dim mage can unleash a demon, or a gout of flame, or Maker knows what... if he isn't careful or just gets malicious.
While he could be more polite about it, I will note that his basic point (namely that certain individuals among the Dalish mages provide a pretty good argument for the view of magic held by the Andrastian chantry) is a decent one. (Maybe the Rivaini or the Avvar are doing better, but we haven't seen enough to know.)
I don't think most who disagree with the Chantry of Andraste, the Chantry controlled Circles, or the Templar Order believe that any alternative is perfect; however, it's not as though the institution imposed by the Chantry doesn't have it's own share of serious flaws: Alrik, Karras, the templars who tortured one of the children of the Sabrae Clan with fire, Meredith's death squad, and the Knight-Commander herself come to mind.
thats why said somewhat not completly. They are only mortal... and stupidNot really. The mages can do so without outside help, and are far less limited. A dim knight can unleash a demon if he finds himself in a ruin and isn't careful. A dim mage can unleash a demon if he isn't careful.
I don't think most who disagree with the Chantry of Andraste, the Chantry controlled Circles, or the Templar Order believe that any alternative is perfect; however, it's not as though the institution imposed by the Chantry doesn't have it's own share of serious flaws: Alrik, Karras, the templars who tortured one of the children of the Sabrae Clan with fire, Meredith's death squad, and the Knight-Commander herself come to mind.
Those flaws can be mitigated. Just fire some templars. None of the options are perfect, but the Andrastian one, if properly overseen, is probably the best shot at getting close.
Having mages dictate societies outside of Tevinter doesn't impress me much personally.
I don't think most who disagree with the Chantry of Andraste, the Chantry controlled Circles, or the Templar Order believe that any alternative is perfect; however, it's not as though the institution imposed by the Chantry doesn't have it's own share of serious flaws: Alrik, Karras, the templars who tortured one of the children of the Sabrae Clan with fire, Meredith's death squad, and the Knight-Commander herself come to mind.
Which is clearly a problem with Kirkwall's Templars, not even Kirkwall's Chantry policies.
purely dominated mageocracies dont sit well with me either, but mage AND none-mage socoeties working together, i can live with thatHaving mages dictate societies outside of Tevinter doesn't impress me much personally.
Which is clearly a problem with Kirkwall's Templars, not even Kirkwall's Chantry policies.
Evidently so given that Elthina publicly reprimands Meredith along with denying the more sweeping requests of the Templars.
Even Anders before he became Osama Bin Abomination viewed the Chantry as the tool for Mage liberation.
I think that's forgotten though.
thats why said somewhat not completly. They are only mortal... and stupid
Yes, but the problem is that Michel's situation, in which being a dim knight is enough to loose a demon, is almost certainly pretty rare. Meanwhile we know that while mages rarely loose demons in their own flesh, the danger that any particular one will never really goes away. And when one gives in to that danger, there's always the danger that something like Redcliffe or the Circle will happen. And which one put more people in danger?
Those flaws can be mitigated. Just fire some templars. None of the options are perfect, but the Andrastian one, if properly overseen, is probably the best shot at getting close.
This is precisely why people disagree in the first place, including about the merits of mage autonomy from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order. No one on either side believes that any specific choice is perfect, but some are simply more inclined to favor one over the other. That's why we always reach an impasse in these discussions.
never disagreed. The claims the pro templars make are valid the claims of the pro mages are also valid.Yes, but the problem is that Michel's situation, in which being a dim knight is enough to loose a demon, is almost certainly pretty rare. Meanwhile we know that while mages rarely loose demons in their own flesh, the danger that any particular one will never really goes away. And when one gives in to that danger, there's always the danger that something like Redcliffe or the Circle will happen. And which one put more people in danger?
Even Anders before he became Osama Bin Abomination viewed the Chantry as the tool for Mage liberation.
I think that's forgotten though.
Anders in Awakening thinks that killing innocents for any reason at all is beyond unforgivable and corrupt, but look how that turned out.
perhaps if we created a proto-state for magi and templar and with(hopefully) each "benign" generation allow more leeway. Fair?This is precisely why people disagree in the first place, including about the merits of mage autonomy from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order. No one on either side believes that any specific choice is perfect, but some are simply more inclined to favor one over the other. That's why we always reach an impasse in these discussions.
perhaps if we created a proto-state for magi and templar and with(hopefully) each "benign" generation allow more leeway. Fair?
Thrask tried something similar, where mages and templars worked together; if given the chance, my apostate Champion would've supported him. Unfortunately, he was felled by bad writing Grace.
perhaps if we created a proto-state for magi and templar and with(hopefully) each "benign" generation allow more leeway. Fair?
I'm not sure. The mages might create a new Tevinter, and even if they never do (which is entirely possible) there's always the chance that the mundanes will conclude that it's inevitable and attack preemptively. Or that the Tevinter will notice that there's a whole bunch of foreign mages under nobody's protection but their own and decide to do a few slaving runs. Or that the Qunari will notice and decide to just blow it the hell up. I think that having mundanes, weak mages, and strong mages subject to the same authority is probably for the best, both to protect them from each other and to protect them all from outside forces.
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