458 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

The real issue is what guarantees can MAGES make that normal people never enslave them again? What sort of example can they make that they will never wear a chain again?

What sort of message can we send that, "We do not live at your sufferance. You live at ours."

[raging_monkey]

I'm not sure. The mages might create a new Tevinter, and even if they never do (which is entirely possible) there's always the chance that the mundanes will conclude that it's inevitable and attack preemptively. Or that the Tevinter will notice that there's a whole bunch of foreign mages under nobody's protection but their own and decide to do a few slaving runs. Or that the Qunari will notice and decide to just blow it the hell up. I think that having mundanes, weak mages, and strong mages subject to the same authority is probably for the best, both to protect them from each other and to protect them all from outside forces.

quis custodiet ipsos custodes. But who to protect them is what also causes our impass

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

quis custodiet ipsos custodes. But who to protect them is what also causes our impass

If the Inquisitor can't do it, I'm at a loss.

[raging_monkey]

The real issue is what guarantees can MAGES make that normal people never enslave them again? What sort of example can they make that they will never wear a chain again?What sort of message can we send that, "We do not live at your sufferance. You live at ours."

as humans (general term for elves aswell) there is no garentee but its up mages and non-mages to build a better future for both

[Tevinter Soldier]

Mage's are powerful, and some of them are very good people, but magic has cause the destruction of so much in Thedas, to levels that normal people could never measure up. Magic destroyed Arlathans, magic brought the Blight. Magic can't be rivaled with in any means, so it must be controled, or it might have to be destroyed. Mage's are good people, thats not what i am saying here, but just one mage who gets to angry or gets a dumb idea in his head can kill hundreds in seconds. and yes all mage's must deal with that, because there is no way to know which ones wont snap. 

 

which is why mages should be in charge, mundanes are ill equipped to deal with these matters.

tevinter has faced countless wars uprisings rebellions and yet, Tevinter Prevails.

 

How long did your Mundane controlled circles stand before they collapsed?

 

this is the problem with Mundanes always grasping to control power the Maker has not granted you.

as for Arlanthan, it was necessary the elves attacked first. they would have killed all humanity mundanes included in their insane cult believing murdering an entire race would bring back their immortality.

 

Tevinter had no choice. they saved humanity and enacted policies which would prevent the elves threatening humanity again.

[Master Warder Z_]

The real issue is what guarantees can MAGES make that normal people never enslave them again? What sort of example can they make that they will never wear a chain again?

What sort of message can we send that, "We do not live at your sufferance. You live at ours."

 

You could ask the normal folks the same thing of the Mages.

 

:/

 

Beyond that no, the majority does not live at the sufferance of the minority, its quite the opposite in every conceivable scenario i can think of through out history.

 

Whether if you want to go Celts, Kurds, Gypsies, Whatever.

[raging_monkey]

which is why mages should be in charge, mundanes are ill equipped to deal with these matters.tevinter has faced countless wars uprisings rebellions and yet, Tevinter Prevails. How long did your Mundane controlled circles stand before they collapsed? this is the problem with Mundanes always grasping to control power the Maker has not granted you.as for Arlanthan, it was necessary the elves attacked first. they would have killed all humanity mundanes included in their insane cult believing murdering an entire race would bring back their immortality. Tevinter had no choice. they saved humanity and enacted policies which would prevent the elves threatening humanity again.

few things we use non-magi instead of mundanes it offend some(as master warder z claims) and while tevinter does work it obviously has problems a direct magoecracy just makes people more fearful of magi and magi are arguably the best at dealing with magi it may set a dangerous precedent to non-magi saying "we are superior you cant touch us for you know nothing of magic". Its better to ask for help from a templar-esque order in trying to help both magi and non-magi

[MisterJB]

tevinter has faced countless wars uprisings rebellions and yet, Tevinter Prevails.

No, Tevinter survives, big difference.

It lost nearly all of Thedas to normals and it never managed to get it back.

 

How long did your Mundane controlled circles stand before they collapsed?

A thousand years, around the same time Tevinter lasted before Andraste was born.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

A thousand years, around the same time Tevinter lasted before Andraste was born.

 

That's about ironic right there.

[raging_monkey]

So every thousand years theres a revolution on mage politics and order.. interesting

[Kieran G.]

No, Tevinter survives, big difference.

It lost nearly all of Thedas to normals and it never managed to get it back.

 

A thousand years, around the same time Tevinter lasted before Andraste was born.

And don't forget Tevinter can barely keep hold of their own people and can't even protect its territory, the only people who prevails are the Magisters, the regular folk don't care about Tevinter, that elven slave, was fine working anywhere. Fenris sister only wanted to stay in Tevinter because she might get a role of power. The people of that once great empire have lost their hope in it and seeing that Mundanes brought peace after Magister caused 5 wars that together lasted around 345ish years, Tevinter couldn't even defend their home land, it took Mundane aid to save them.

 

hell they could barely defend them self against Qunari invasion and again needed the support of Mundane nations to save their lands, until the mundanes took it from them. Tevinter is shaking and cracking and has been for centuries, the dynasty of the Magisters is coming to an end, and maybe mage's will always be in power in tevinter, but it will not regain its once had power.

[MisterJB]

So every thousand years theres a revolution on mage politics and order.. interesting

Great, so non-mage are in for a thousand years of slavery.

And then it's our turn, bitches.

[Master Warder Z_]

Great, so non-mage are in for a thousand years of slavery.

And then it's our turn, bitches.

 

Or not, I think this cycle of mage domination has just about been broken.

[raging_monkey]

Great, so non-mage are in for a thousand years of slavery.And then it's our turn, bitches.

suprisingly as a moderate this seem fair and eventually we may all getalong

[Mistic]

Beyond that no, the majority does not live at the sufferance of the minority, its quite the opposite in every conceivable scenario i can think of through out history.

 

So rulers, nobles and powerful people in general aren't minorities, but majorities? I want my nobility certificate right now!

 

And don't forget Tevinter can barely keep hold of their own people and can't even protect its territory, the only people who prevails are the Magisters, the regular folk don't care about Tevinter, that elven slave, was fine working anywhere. Fenris sister only wanted to stay in Tevinter because she might get a role of power. The people of that once great empire have lost their hope in it and seeing that Mundanes brought peace after Magister caused 5 wars that together lasted around 345ish years, Tevinter couldn't even defend their home land, it took Mundane aid to save them.

 

hell they could barely defend them self against Qunari invasion and again needed the support of Mundane nations to save their lands, until the mundanes took it from them. Tevinter is shaking and cracking and has been for centuries, the dynasty of the Magisters is coming to an end, and maybe mage's will always be in power in tevinter, but it will not regain its once had power.

 

Wait, wait, here are things about Tevinter history that I didn't see before. Which 5 wars that lasted around 345 years? Which lands did the mundanes take from them after the Qunari wars? And I am the only one who remembers that four decades before the Exalted Marches it was the massive rebellions in Tevinter that first pushed back the Qunari lines in 6:85?

[The Hierophant]

and sadly the cycle continues.

[Master Warder Z_]

So rulers, nobles and powerful people in general aren't minorities, but majorities? I want my nobility certificate right now!

.

You jest but it was obvious my inference was directed to minorities of religious, and ethnic background.

 

Not Social.

[raging_monkey]

and sadly the cycle continues.

yes tgis thread was almost RIP but hey it got better

[Mistic]

.

You jest but it was obvious my inference was directed to minorities of religious, and ethnic background.

 

Not Social.

 

True enough; but Tevinter manages by turning their power into a source of nobility. In fact, magisters hold much more power by being rulers than by being mages. So it does become a social minority.

[Tevinter Soldier]

few things we use non-magi instead of mundanes it offend some(as master warder z claims) and while tevinter does work it obviously has problems a direct magoecracy just makes people more fearful of magi and magi are arguably the best at dealing with magi it may set a dangerous precedent to non-magi saying "we are superior you cant touch us for you know nothing of magic". Its better to ask for help from a templar-esque order in trying to help both magi and non-magi

 

Master warden Z is a mundane extremist who would see all mages killed onsite, I don't acknowledge extremists.

Sadly it is true that some Mundanes may "fear" the idea that Mage's hold a higher position in the world, It is one based on Ignorance for the maker Put Magi on Thedas to show all man the path back to the maker.

It is simply Education the masses need, they will accept their place the same as they will accept that only Magi can lead us back to the maker.

 

No, Tevinter survives, big difference.

It lost nearly all of Thedas to normals and it never managed to get it back.

 

A thousand years, around the same time Tevinter lasted before Andraste was born.

 

Tevinter has not chosen to retake lands forcibly taken from the Imperium, Because contrary to the White Divines propaganda Tevinter, which has Prevailed for over 2000 years through countless wars, invasions, blights and other incursions Is foremost Most Merciful, When the correct time approaches Magisters will return to the lost lands of Thedas not as conquerors to be feared. But as Hero's come to Liberate all People from the tyranny of the White Chantry and you Unite them under the Loving Banner of the Black.

 

Already we see the Traitorous White Chantry powerbase erode, losing control of the mage's it caged and the violent Malificar's they call "Templars" who now slay thousands and once again reach for powers beyond them, for they have not learnt the Lessons of the Great Mage Andraste who revealed to us the maker and the true role of magic.  

[Master Warder Z_]

True enough; but Tevinter manages by turning their power into a source of nobility. In fact, magisters hold much more power by being rulers than by being mages. So it does become a social minority.

 

But they only obtain that rulership through being mages, their great houses are made up of mages, their senate is made up of mages, their archon is a mage, their divine is a mage.

 

Need i go on?

[raging_monkey]

Master warden Z is a mundane extremist who would see all mages killed onsite, I don't acknowledge extremists.Sadly it is true that some Mundanes may "fear" the idea that Mage's hold a higher position in the world, It is one based on Ignorance for the maker Put Magi on Thedas to show all man the path back to the maker.It is simply Education the masses need, they will accept their place the same as they will accept that only Magi can lead us back to the maker.  Tevinter has not chosen to retake lands forcibly taken from the Imperium, Because contrary to the White Divines propaganda Tevinter, which has Prevailed for over 2000 years through countless wars, invasions, blights and other incursions Is foremost Most Merciful, When the correct time approaches Magisters will return to the lost lands of Thedas not as conquerors to be feared. But as Hero's come to Liberate all People from the tyranny of the White Chantry and you Unite them under the Loving Banner of the Black. Already we see the Traitorous White Chantry powerbase erode, losing control of the mage's it caged and the violent Malificar's they call "Templars" who now slay thousands and once again reach for powers beyond them, for they have not learnt the Lessons of the Great Mage Andraste who revealed to us the maker and the true role of magic.

Z's a bit conservitive but not extreme(from what ive read, TKS is extreme to the point of phobia) and while i agree with on many points claiming that magi are the true master race reenforces Z's and TKS's concerns

[Mistic]

But they only obtain that rulership through being mages, their great houses are made up of mages, their senate is made up of mages, their archon is a mage, their divine is a mage.

 

Need i go on?

 

But it's the same as saying that in other countries in Thedas people obtain that rulership through being nobles, their great houses are made up of nobles, their senate... well, they don't have any senates, but their kings and queens are nobles too. The Chantry provides an outlet for commoners in Southern Thedas. Actually, according to WoT the Imperial Chantry under Hessarian did exactly the same... until lately the Altus began monopolizing the posts.

 

Nobility in Thedas comes from warlords that managed that power through force and/or conquest, and then their children inherited it. The same goes for magisters in Tevinter, who also began as warlords. The only difference about their legitimacy is that in other countries noble blood comes from their ancestors, while in Tevinter it comes from having magic in your blood.

 

It doesn't make Tevinter any better, though. Magic makes their bastard nobles even more dangerous than normal ones, and I'm pretty sure it makes nicer nobles more prone to corruption too. But magocracy is still a form of aristocracy, not a new invention.

[MisterJB]

Tevinter has not chosen to retake lands forcibly taken from the Imperium,

2.45 Glory, the Imperium annexes Starkhaven.

2:80 Glory, the Chantry takes it back.

 

3:25 Towers, Tevinter claims Hunter Fell.

3:49 Towers, Hunter Fells rebels and sucessfully breaks away from Tevinter.

 

[raging_monkey]

2.45 Glory, the Imperium annexes Starkhaven.2:80 Glory, the Chantry takes it back. 3:25 Towers, Tevinter claims Hunter Fell.3:49 Towers, Hunter Fells rebels and sucessfully breaks away from Tevinter.

compelling evidence