1120 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

some players will be mad about that, but little do they know it will be good for them.

You don't know what's good for us

Stop being such a jerk

[TurretSyndrome]

All of the demos we have seen have shown us that we see enemies before we end up engaging.  Obviously that's not going to happen all the time, but acting like we will be changing mapped abilities every 10 seconds is a bit extreme.  We've seen Redcliffe, Fallow Mire, and Crestwood... all places that we have an indication prior to battles of what we'll be facing. 

 

My whole post actually gave a few examples.  Of course they'll be some unexpected encounters, but I doubt they'll be something you can't handle with your basic 8 mapped talents.  Maybe re-read my post about it? 

 

You don't get it. The issue is not just about not knowing what we may face, it's also about what changes during battle and whether we have the tools to compensate for those changes. The problem now is that we do have the tools, we just can't use them. Just by watching a bunch of videos doesn't let you know jack sh!t about what you can expect in the game, not to mention the demos themselves are heavily modified to fit the "demo". 

 

There will be plenty of unexpected elements in the game throughout the combat, that's not an exaggeration(saying there will only be some would be ridiculously underestimating it). Forget knowing the battlefield or knowing the enemies, either through a scout or through your own effort. You can never foresee how the events in a combat situation will play out. This design will only encourage missed opportunities and the player being constantly reminded of it, nothing else. 

[Father_Jerusalem]

Hmm yet you're trying to make fun of even those arguing against this decision rationally.

Really? Cuz there's plenty of posts I haven't responded to.

 

Even *shockgasp* people who don't like this change.

 

Perhaps if you read the posts I'm responding to, you'll see they have something in common...

[The Night Haunter]

And perhaps you need to learn how to read. 

Just gonna leave this here for you.

[In Exile]

The only way we'll know for sure is when we play it. Until then, I'm much more dubious about it than you, In Exile.

Sure. I just don't follow what you're doubting? ThT the party building will be worthwhile?

[Morroian]

You really wouldn't have any idea how to fight a Templar, or a mage, or an undead? 

 

If you really wouldn't, I'd assume your military advisor, your scout, or another party member would give you some kind of heads up.  You disengage, which is new this game.  

 

We'll see how much info scouts actually give us, potentially that overcomes some of the issues. As for disengaging I doubt you would be able to do that once aggroing the enemies.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Okay, gonna be writing how I feel about the new ability restriction:

First of all, I firmly believe that this design choice will really turn up the difficulty levels when it comes to strategic decisions.

Much like Fire Emblem Awakening, I see it as a way to examine an encounter, then set your (and your companions) abilities accordingly with a plan in mind, then go in and execute. Again this actually makes me respect the game a lot more from a strategic POV. 

Further more I'm going to be counter arguing a few things that had been said:

1- This is a fantasy game, your character doesn't 'forget all of the abilities he's learned except for 8'. It's more or less preparing yourself pre-battle, and if you want to realistically tackle the issue, you most definitely won't be able to prepare all of your skills and tricks moments before an encounter. Point is, it's a pathetic, invalid and weak argument so cease from using it.

2- This isn't some conspiracy, there's a belief behind it and I'm actually supporting it. Yes having 8 moves does force you to be a lot more tactical and do some planning pre-encounter. Of course if you have half a brain, you'd figure not to fill your quickbar with a bunch of moves that ultimately have the same thing (5 fire spells for instance).
 

3- This design actually promotes situational spells, since if a battle might call for you to use it, you'll actually bother remembering to use the spell once you place it.

4- If you cancel your pre-order because you can only use 8 (32 in a manner of speaking) abilities, then I truly feel sorry for you.

[Vapaa]

So the UI is now the PCs mind? 

 

It's the UI who rescrits what my PC able to use among the pool of what she's capable to use, and with no stated reason, the only logical conclusion is that the PC forgets it.

 

 

That's when you switch out to the abilities you want to use for the big room

 

You can only change outside combat, so if you're engaged as soon as you entered the room, you're screwed

[falconlord5]

You don't get it. The issue is not just about not knowing what we may face, it's also about what changes during battle and whether we have the tools to compensate for those changes. The problem now is that we do have the tools, we just can't use them. Just by watching a bunch of videos doesn't let you know jack sh!t about what you can expect in the game, not to mention the demos themselves are heavily modified to fit the "demo". 

 

There will be plenty of unexpected elements in the game throughout the combat, that's what I'm trying to say. Forget knowing the battlefield or knowing the enemies, either through a scout or through your own effort. You can never foresee how the events in a combat situation will play out. This design will only encourage missed opportunities and the player being constantly reminded of it, nothing else. 

 

You're right. You don't know. And you didn't know in DA:O or DAII, either. Unless you picked every single skill the game had to offer (which you couldn't do), you were faced with picking the skills you thought were best for the situation and running with it.

 

Don't see how this is any different, really.

[Morroian]

Really? Cuz there's plenty of posts I haven't responded to.

 

Even *shockgasp* people who don't like this change.

 

Perhaps if you read the posts I'm responding to, you'll see they have something in common...

 

You'll notice I didn't use the word all.

[PsychoBlonde]

Even in BG1 a level 4-8 mage will have more than 8 spells. You'll have a # of uses cap but that's very different from a cap on total abilities.

Granted, in Baldur's Gate you might not even have a SINGLE quickslot for spells.  You could always pull them up the long way from the spells menu, but that game had a crappy interface too for another reason.  That, and my characters in BG tended to have multiple copies of the same spell memorized instead of using every slot for a DIFFERENT spell.  If you looked at my actual spell selection, you'd be assuming that my level 5 wizard only KNEW four spells.  It actually got WORSE the further I got in the series due to the basically permanent need to have Breach memorized for dealing with casters and their "haha I'm immune to everything!" bullcrap.

 

You're still making a lot of assumptions about things like "how many active abilities will there be" and "how many will be potentially useful in a given situation" and "having the second-best ability is 100% worthless" and so forth.  Heck, one of my biggest problems in DA2 on my mage was simply remembering which damn ability did what.  I took almost all of them off my quick bar after a while simply because it didn't matter that they were Da Bomb That One Time because I'd never remember to use them because I couldn't remember what they did just by looking at the icon.  My list of actual spells used tended to look like this:

 

Mind Blast

Horror

Spirit Bolt

Chain Lightning

Death Cloud

Petrification

Glyph of Paralysis

and every once in a while, Lightning Storm or whatever it was called.

That, and Origins and DA2, regardless of the plethora of available abilities, had me BORED TO DEATH with combat before I was halfway through the game.  If DA:I can keep me interested long enough for me to even ACQUIRE 8 active abilities to fill the bar with, it'll still be WAY better than anything that has come before.

[spacediscosaurus]

I think that's my problem with this whole deal. For any of the problems people had with Origins, "I have too many things my character is capable of doing, I need less" is not one of them.

 

I dunno, I did. My hotbar became such a mess with all the spells I wasn't using that it honestly was a bit of a pain, and I had to remove most of them. Not that I'm saying my experience means they definitely should have changed the way it works. But it was still a valid experience.

[CronoDragoon]

You don't get it. The issue is not just about not knowing what we may face, it's also about what changes during battle and whether we have the tools to compensate for those changes. The problem now is that we do have the tools, we just can't use them. Just by watching a bunch of videos doesn't let you know jack sh!t about what you can expect in the game, not to mention the demos themselves are heavily modified to fit the "demo". 

 

There will be plenty of unexpected elements in the game throughout the combat, that's not an exaggeration(saying there will only be some would be ridiculously underestimating it). Forget knowing the battlefield or knowing the enemies, either through a scout or through your own effort. You can never foresee how the events in a combat situation will play out. This design will only encourage missed opportunities and the player being constantly reminded of it, nothing else. 

 

So you admit we don't know jack about the game from videos but somehow you know how the 8 ability limit will play out.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Just gonna leave this here for you.

As someone who has been playing RPGs since Diplomacy, CLEARLY my opinion vis a vis regarding reading carries FAR more weight than yours.

[Allan Schumacher]

Interesting because never did I say hated anything, I am curious if there is more to the story then what is stated considering Bioware's track record, but like I said in previous threads Allan Schumacher I refuse to take your bait because its not even worth it.

 

Royal "you."  Not you, specifically

[Skymaple]

I'm not disagreeing. I don't like this "feature". I'm just saying it's only a problem after the mid-game and with upgrades you'll really only ever get about 12-13 active abilities.

 

Yes, you're right... if it gets annoying at all, it'll be from mid game on... Hmm and it's true that this time we have less active abilities or so it seems, we don't have sustained and all...

I think I'll love being a sneaky rogue, going into stealth and seeing what the next combat is all about, then coming back to my group, rearrange abilities and GO! haha

[ianvillan]

I have a few concerns with such justification.

 

- It's only a tactical decision if you know in advance what your group is going to be facing. What if you are ambushed? What if you draw aggro from a different kind of group than one you prepared for? What about plot-triggered battles that start after a cutscene and you may not even see all your opponents or know their capabilities in advance? Both DAO and DA II were full of such encounters. Seems like in all those cases, you would be guessing as opposed to meaningfully deciding tactics. Or worse, you'd be using metagaming knowledge of what lies ahead from previous attempts...

 

- Frankly, it seems like an extra hassle. Suppose you somehow know in advance you'll have to face 2 different combat situations and decide to prepare for each accordingly. Before each battle you need to re-evaluate your chosen abilities for each party member. Remember, each character has different specialization and their own set of abilities on their toolbar. That means you need to go over this process for 4 characters (inquisitor + 3 allies). For the second encounter, you'll need to do it all over again. I suspect this ritual may be getting really old, really fast as the game progresses. While in DAO/DA2 I could just stroll to the bad guys without stopping and in each encounter use the mouse to click on the toolbar ability I situationally wanted to use...

 

- It's immersion breaking. It does not make sense for a character to suddenly forget how to use abilities they used a few minutes ago just because player swapped them out on a toolbar. I know - gameplay mechanics, they aren't supposed to "make sense", etc... But in this case it seems too absurd, and I would be reminded of this every time I wanted to use an ability I forgot to map to the toolbar. Maybe it does not matter for MMO players such as yourself, but I would prefer strange gameplay mechanics did not break my immersion into the fantasy world Bioware crafted.

 

So if they're really doing all this (limiting number of mapped abilities to 8 + removing possibility to use unmapped abilities + removing possibility to remap abilities while in combat), then yes, I'm very concerned with these changes.

 

It also hinders replay-ability knowing that you must have certain companions with you if you have a chance of beating an opponent, or knowing you must choose certain abilities on level up because you need them to pick for the next battle.

 

Part of my fun with replaying the previous games is creating a different character who did not choose the same abilities as before and using different party members on different missions, but now with having only 8 abilities that it going to be much more difficult to do.

[falconlord5]

It's the UI who rescrits what my PC able to use among the pool of what she's capable to use, and with no stated reason, the only logical conclusion is that the PC forgets it.

 

 

Actually, the logical conclusion would be that you are using a particular skill set for one task, and switching to another for a different task.

 

 

You can only change outside combat, so if you're engaged as soon as you entered the room, you're screwed

 

 

 

Don't rush through the door, then. Or save-scum.

[aaarcher86]

You don't get it. The issue is not just about not knowing what we may face, it's also about what changes during battle and whether we have the tools to compensate for those changes. The problem now is that we do have the tools, we just can't use them. Just by watching a bunch of videos doesn't let you know jack sh!t about what you can expect in the game, not to mention the demos themselves are heavily modified to fit the "demo". 

 

There will be plenty of unexpected elements in the game throughout the combat, that's not an exaggeration(saying there will only be some would be ridiculously underestimating it). Forget knowing the battlefield or knowing the enemies, either through a scout or through your own effort. You can never foresee how the events in a combat situation will play out. This design will only encourage missed opportunities and the player being constantly reminded of it, nothing else. 

 

You're right.  The videos don't give you the full picture.  I'm also basing it off of playing the previous 2 games.  It's really not that complicated.  I'm not stoked about having only 8 mapped abilities, but that's what it is.  I definitely don't think it's a ****** Armageddon like it's being made out to be. 

[AresKeith]

It's the UI who rescrits what my PC able to use among the pool of what she's capable to use, and with no stated reason, the only logical conclusion is that the PC forgets it.

 

 

You can only change outside combat, so if you're engaged as soon as you entered the room, you're screwed

 

There is no logic in that conclusion, your trying to combine gameplay/story segregation 

 

 

You can also disengage from combat, which could give you the chance to change out your loadout. Plus there's your companions

[TurretSyndrome]

You're right. You don't know. And you didn't know in DA:O or DAII, either. Unless you picked every single skill the game had to offer (which you couldn't do), you were faced with picking the skills you thought were best for the situation and running with it.

 

Don't see how this is any different, really.

 

The situation is different because you can't use all those talents dammit! You can't do that anymore. If there was a chance to change things around to turn the tide at a certain time in the combat, or implement a certain tactic in a situation, you can't do that because you're limited by being married to your quickbar abilities for the entirety of the combat duration. That's not the case in DA:O or DA 2.

[aaarcher86]

We'll see how much info scouts actually give us, potentially that overcomes some of the issues. As for disengaging I doubt you would be able to do that once aggroing the enemies.

 

Right.  I mean, we obviously don't know the full details of everything - we haven't seen the details of the missions before going out or gotten to see how we get information about it, etc.

 

But the Devs have said you can disengage from combat, so I don't see why we can't get the hell outta there and regroup/change abilities.

[Morroian]

So you admit we don't know jack about the game from videos but somehow you know how the 8 ability limit will play out.

 

There are some common issues across all rpgs that I've played with a LAS. 

[Maria Caliban]

I don't think there are sustained abilities at all.

There aren't.

I'm okay with that.