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When someone takes a series of demeaning views is calling them out on it insulting? I think you need to examine your use of the word hypocrisy.
This just further illustrates my point. When someone has a different view from you it is an insult, and when you have a different view from someone it is 'calling out'. Here, I will use the word hypocrisy again.
As for "girly girls who love violence". That is not indicative of real life and has no place in quality storytelling. Fighting battles in dresses and school uniforms is simply a fantasy - and while this is "fantasy" - if Bioware desires to write a story about indentifiable people - they would best avoid any concept of "tea party battle barbie".
Queen Elizabeth was a fierce woman who balked at the "girly" aspects forced upon her. As were Catherine the Great, Empress Theodora, Boudica, Joan of Arc, Queen Victoria.
Cleopatra was girly - and she lost her empire and killed herself for her lover with an asp - so if we want some great melodrama going on - we've got her as an example.
And it's no different with men. Gentle men (that does not mean effeminate) who have no propensity toward violence and no love of power over others have no place in conflicts and only suffer immensely if forced into such scenarios.
Thou hast perpetrated the sin of generalization. A lot.
And Cleopatra? She picked the wrong horse. That's it. Her being "girly" had nothing to do with it.
Maybe I should use a diagram or something, lets say 1 is your super barbie, 10 is The Hound.
Vivienne - 8 ------------------->3
Cassandra - 6.5------------->7.5
Sera - 5.5---------------------->4
Blackwall - 9 -----------------> 10.5
Solas - 6 ----------------------> 6
Varric - 9-----------------------> 1475846
Iron Bull - 9--------------------> 15615419816516
Dorian - 7.5 -------------------> 3
Cole - 6.5-----------------------> N/A
I'm not saying they're all the same, or that Vivienne is literally a man, or whatever, I'm saying the "feel" is very bromance. It's 2014, I've seen women drink hard and complain about the lack of male behind in conventional media, more power to them and all that, it doesn't make them less of a "woman" literally, but this kind of progress leaves behind you know, a more feminine woman.
I fixed your silly graph to be more accurate. What do you know of women? nothing based on these judgments.
I fixed your silly graph to be more accurate. What do you know of women? nothing based on these judgments.
You fix more accurate. But Varric 147586? really? He is probably most sexualised male. And best bro.
Heck, the most recent trailer, Enemy of Thedas, showed a male inquisitor for awhile, then Dorian, then Cole, then Cullen, some zombie/enemies, etc, it's pure men. Hilariously (in a bad way), the first time a female shows up (Sera) is when she's being hurled against a wall at high speed (Bioware is... progressive?) Then we go back to men doing manly things, and then some female mage in total isolation taking down a single zombie, which was utterly inspiring. Then more dragons/men (Solas) doing manly things, then hilariously again the next female to show up (Morrigan) is shown for a half second and then blasted off the platform (what's with women being thrown all over the place??). It closes with a bunch of aliens, cool, I'm feeling the female energy all over the place.
Maybe I should use a diagram or something, lets say 1 is your super barbie, 10 is The Hound.
Vivienne - 8 ------------------->8
Cassandra - 6.5------------->6.5
Sera - 5.5---------------------->5.5
Blackwall - 9 -----------------> 9
Solas - 6 ----------------------> 6
Varric - 9-----------------------> 9
Iron Bull - 9--------------------> 9
Dorian - 7.5 -------------------> 7.5
Cole - 6.5-----------------------> 6.5
I fixed your silly graph to be more accurate. What do you know of women? nothing based on these judgments.
I fixed your silly fixed graph to make it more accurate. What do you know of women? Nothing, based on your judgments.
Literally the first thing on the wiki for Vivienne
“For those who value survival, sentimentality is not an option."
It doesn't exactly scream "oh lets have fun together! =)"
So, if a woman has any sort of ambition or mind of her own, shows any sort of toughness or has a dominant personality of any sort, they're a man in your eyes? Good to know I'm basically a dude, then.
Do you prefer females to be unambitious, weak in both strength and will and completely submissive? Is that all it takes?
i feel like I'm in the 1800s.
Do you prefer females to be unambitious, weak in both strength and will and completely submissive? Is that all it takes?
If your version of me is one who didn't previously expressly discuss the nature of a female who is both strong and gentle simultaneously, then yes.
And if you take away the 'gentle' part, it doesn't make them any less female.
which you seem unable to grasp.
And if you take away the 'gentle' part, it doesn't make them any less female.
which you seem unable to grasp.
And if you read what I've been saying, I'm not saying that makes them less of a female, literally. I'm saying that makes them less "stereotypically feminine" or whatever the way you want to describe it is, sucking the softness and gentleness out of the world completely.
which you seem unable to grasp.
And if you read what I've been saying, I'm not saying that makes them less of a female, literally. I'm saying that makes them less "stereotypically feminine" or whatever the way you want to describe it is, sucking the softness and gentleness out of the world completely.
which you seem unable to grasp.
Maybe it's not what you intend to say, but it certainly has been what your posts have implied. You've said that being soft, gentle and so on are feminine qualities. That implies that women should be like that and that females who aren't that are wrong.
And then, when this is pointed out, if indeed this implication wasn't intentional, the reasonable thing would be to just say you didn't intend to offend anyone and resolve to use more suitable terminology. Instead, you try to stick to your guns and persist with your misogonistic stereotyping. Which implies that you mean exactly what you are implying with your descriptions of certain traits as "feminine".
are feminine qualities. That implies that
It does not imply that nor did I imply that, it's just that simple. I'm not responsible for people making up additional statements or ideas whenever I decide to invoke the English language.
It does not imply that nor did I imply that, it's just that simple. I'm not responsible for people making up additional statements or ideas whenever I decide to invoke the English language.
Given how the English laguage is typically used, it implies just that. And while it is perfectly within your right to use words differently from the way they typically are, it is completely your fault if people assume you're using them in the normal way.
Ohhhhh kay then, whatever you say.
Keep in mind that my earlier point was simply that there was too much manliness going on already, so to make the females masculine was overkill. If the men had been feminine, and the women masculine, or something like that, perhaps I would of had a different complaint. As it stands, Sera is probably the most interesting character so not only did I not imply or state that being masculine and a woman was a bad thing, it directly contradicts my current feelings on the game. It's like Yin and Yang, it's not what it is without balance.
Keep in mind that my earlier point was simply that there was too much manliness going on already, so to make the females masculine was overkill. If the men had been feminine, and the women masculine, or something like that, perhaps I would of had a different complaint. As it stands, Sera is probably the most interesting character so not only did I not imply or state that being masculine and a woman was a bad thing, it directly contradicts my current feelings on the game. It's like Yin and Yang, it's not what it is without balance.
And this is exactly my point. You consider certain attributes to be "masculine" and "feminine". Get that tired old discriminatory idea out of your head and move into at least the twentieth century, and maybe we can have a reasonable discussion.
I'm a girl and I'm totally fine with women depicted in Bioware games. They're strong, badass, beautiful and very interesting characters who evolve throughout the game. More females? Would be great, ofc, but for me - not necessarily. I always play as a female hero in their games and going totally "girl-power" is not good either.
I'm still blown away that you don't think Vivienne is girly. Or hell... CASS. The woman has custom made armor with HEARTS all over it.
Honestly I just don't think you have any idea what Femininity actually IS. Femininity isn't being demure or submissive.
By what you -believe- to be femininity, Morrigan, for example, is probably one of the least feminine characters in the dragon age universe. She is neither demure NOR submissive. She's assertive and powerful, and will take absolutely 0% of your ****. Know who else is like that? Leliana. Wynne. Shale. Sigrun. Isablea. Aveline. Merrill. Bethany. Vivienne. Cassandra. Sera. Josephine.
Not one SINGLE Dragon Age woman is this picture you've created on what "girly" is.
What they are, all of them, are Women. Some of them are traditionally Feminine such as Leliana, Vivienne, Morrigan, Merrill, Josephine, and Cassandra. Some of them are not traditionally feminine. None of that makes them any less female, nor does it make them "manly" simply because they have short hair or like to get dirty or really like swords.
So, from one female to you: perhaps you aught to step outside and actually MEET a few women. Because what you think girls are is not at all what we actually are at all. Not one single one of us. Not even ladies who ARE demure or submissive.
You're not asking Bioware for more women. You're asking bioware for some wet blankets to drape over yourself.
Guest_Puddi III_*
And this is exactly my point. You consider certain attributes to be "masculine" and "feminine". Get that tired old discriminatory idea out of your head and move into at least the twentieth century, and maybe we can have a reasonable discussion.
We still commonly say guys are effeminate when they act a certain way in the 21st century. Women who are aggressive or sexually open are still shamed as mannish or slutty. These gendered attributions of behavior may be wrong, but let's not pretend they're anywhere near extinct just because we've surrounded ourselves with people who deny them.
Saying it's all those darn backwards Japanese's fault is also something I would object to.
if I want to have girly girly characters in my game, I play an anime-jp rpg. I am glad that bioware makes strong women with different personalities. I pretty much liked all the female chars in DA1 and 2. And Kasume and Liara were awsome as well.
good job Bioware. I love you.
I'm a girl and I'm totally fine with women depicted in Bioware games. They're strong, badass, beautiful and very interesting characters who evolve throughout the game. More females? Would be great, ofc, but for me - not necessarily. I always play as a female hero in their games and going totally "girl-power" is not good either.
And I haven't been a girl for a long time, but I am also fine the way BioWare games treats their female characters and appreciate the fact that they do let me play a women who is capable, smart and yep, badass or diplomat or smartass as the main character. Agree wouldn't mind a few more wondering around but it's not necessary.
For some reason Girl girl power makes me think of FFX-2, my guilty pleasure, changing their outfits for a change of power. Not anything I would want in one of BW games. Ever. Well, change of clothing or armor is always cool.
May i suggest the OP to focus on JRPGs in this case and spend less energy on Bioware games because his definition of 'femininity' and his examples only show shy, quiet barbies in battle dresses with long flowing hair. Because this stereotype seems to be prevalent in JRPGs. I have nothing against them as a genre, just dont think these characters would fit in DA universe.
Done and done, I chug through around 3-4 hours of JRPG every other day it seems, not nearly as many complaints there. Whereas 10 years ago I would of gone, oh, oh ok, now I'm gonna play a Bioware or Blizzard game, that simply doesn't happen anymore. In the end, if they insist on their current methods then I can indeed "spend less energy" (I.e. not play their games anymore). Actually, I'd given up on them numerous times before, for a variety of reasons though I thought wouldn't it be interesting to see how receptive they are to criticism?
I've yet to see someone contest my examples of strong women (actually, they are ignored almost continuously) from Japanese games (Hrist, Beatrix, I think Melia from a more recent game etc) though. If they can make stronger women, why can't Bioware make softer women (or men, whatever)?
And this is exactly my point. You consider certain attributes to be "masculine" and "feminine". Get that tired old discriminatory idea out of your head and move into at least the twentieth century, and maybe we can have a reasonable discussion.
What are you talking about? Testicles are a masculine attribute. I dare you to rebut that.
What are you talking about? Testicles are a masculine attribute. I dare you to rebut that.
on second thought not even testicles are a masculine attribute, Phalom was a girl with them
on second thought not even testicles are a masculine attribute, Phalom was a girl with them
Or angler fish! Female angler fish have more balls than any man I've ever known.
Nature is sexist!
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