550 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Diversity on women are quite abundant. Even though a girl just shot up 5 guys, she could go home and plant a garden.  That is diversity and having the ability to be rounded out, just not some psycho continually killing.

 

Yeah... not sure we disagree there.

 

Sera is helping so she can go back to doing what she likes to do without demons popping in and out of places. Cassandra wants everything settled, ordered. Vivienne wants order as well. Not sure what Cassie and  Vivienne would like on their downtime.  Something that will be seen once we walk the halls of Skyhold.  Leliana loves stories and also watches stars during camp times with Warden. Curious what her pass time is in Inquisition. .

 

Curious to what they do on their downtime, they are more dynamic than what we know of them. We have to wait and see what they like doing, and they should show us in Skyhold.

 

Origins transmitted that feeling to me to a degree, the beginning --> somewhere around after Redcliffe (doing that one first) and getting Zevran, the camp was indeed fun, but it was limited after awhile. Or take Awakening, Howe the venomous archer, Velanna the renegade rogue, Justice the valiant knight, and Oghren the drunken berserker, and Ander's the venomous sarcastic mage. Once again, only a single female character (and again, she made a point about how nasty she could be), and a bunch of aggressive men.

 

DA2 just felt like an action flick to me, even if you have the house or camp or whatever you want to call it, the characters were all such busy bodies that I didn't feel like I got a chance to sit and get to know them. It was there because it was supposed to be there from a previous game, not because I felt it.

 

I don't know for sure what DA:I is like, but you say Vivienne wants order and Cassandra wants everything settled, that tips again towards just being very firm and aggressive desires. If the camp in DA:I feels at least a bit like the camp in DA:O, fine, but I have a ton of doubts. (and it's not like origins couldn't improve on that)

[aTigerslunch]

Im not sure what they are like in Inquisition, as I don't know them and yes, now I know what your talking about and wanting.    

 

The peace times of characters. Finding out that Zevran liked leather from antiva....  I think you will see what your looking for in Inquisition Kefka.  It may be limited to in castle like Origins but hopefully it isn't a short stint either as you said in Origins.

[OptionFour]

 Additionally, those remaining 3 women are basically men. 

 

 

 

 

This hard binary division of "tough female" and "helpless peasant" does not accurately reflect 2014 realities. There are all kinds of women and all kinds of men.

 

They make even less sense when you put them right beside each other, huh.

 

 

At any rate, the goalposts have been so frequently moved I can no longer keep track of where they lay. So I'm only going to bite this one last time, and try to explain myself. If it doesn't result in anything though then I'm done. Call me a slow learner, I guess.

 

As I've said many times, its fine that you want those characters. I simply think you're wrong - this franchise doesn't need them. The problem is that the character archetype you're requesting is not only most often written in a very flat, one-dimensional, frankly cartoonish manner, but also that it doesn't exist in real life. While Dragon Age is a fantasy game it also does its best to retain some form of gravitas and realism (before people freak out, realism in this context means 'to represent familiar things as they are' not 'adheres completely to reality'); hence dragons can fit in with realism (they are not real, so they can be represented however it is wished) whereas making a bunch of hardened female warriors very waifish, with an outmoded concept of 'feminine', would be unrealistic since hardened female soldiers do exist, and are not generally like that.

 

Were we to add characters of the ilk you're asking for then we would be robbing the series of realism (as defined above), gravitas, and emotional resonance and weight; when someone can fight in bloody, brutal, vicious battles and then go home and be perfectly cheery and think about flowers, and how pretty the sunshine is, we steal the emotional value of the sacrifices the other characters are making; the ability to lead a normal life, for instance, or to be completely well-adjusted. The Inquisitor, Blackwall, Sera, etc., must all make personal sacrifice and take a certain amount of emotional and spiritual trauma in order to be noble, and save the world. If your proposed Character X comes along and saves the world while completely retaining their ability to be an emotional and spiritual innocent, as well as their wide-eyed optimism, then we step right out of realism and into a Saturday Morning Cartoon.

 

Now if that's what you want, I respect that you want it (I still think saying that Sera, Cassandra and Vivienne are 'basically men' is just  . . . just really offensive) but I disagree that its needed here. From all indications the developers and fans of the series would agree. There are an abundant number of games available that do not adhere to any manner of realism, and have the type of character you like in abundance. The types of characters that are portrayed in the Dragon Age series are featured much, much less frequently in RPGs. In effect, you've already won in a large way. Why not let the people who don't like that sort of thing have their franchise?

 

And the last bit then.

If you do this again in another thread, in a month's time or whatever is your want, then my advice would be not to say things that imply that any woman that doesn't live up to your standards isn't a woman. Aside from what should be the very obvious problems with that type of statement . . . ? Once you have said something like that, nothing else you say really matters much. At best what you're doing is giving people spears with which to poke holes in everything you say (as they/we gleefully did), and at worst what you're doing is making it so that some people will simply never, ever listen to anything you have to say on this forum again.

[aTigerslunch]

Where is Shale when need to rid the world of pigeons.     

[OptionFour]

I think Bethany, Merrill, Dawn Star, and probably others manage to be awfully gentle and nice without reducing their games to Saturday Morning Cartoon status. (watch out, pigeon droppings incoming!)

 

Though when it comes to characterization I still honestly have little idea what actually satisfies that son of a submariner. Part of me thinks it requires a very specific act like baking red velvet cupcakes in a frilly pink apron.

 

You kind of hit on my point with that. I would consider those characters nice and gentle as well, but apparently Kefka doesn't. Which means that he's asking for something far more "feminine" than they are. And I don't know if you can do that without reducing the characters to something that would make them absurd within the setting.

[Nefla]

I think Bethany, Merrill, Dawn Star, and probably others manage to be awfully gentle and nice without reducing their games to Saturday Morning Cartoon status. (watch out, pigeon droppings incoming!)

 

Though when it comes to characterization I still honestly have little idea what actually satisfies that son of a submariner. Part of me thinks it requires a very specific act like baking red velvet cupcakes in a frilly pink apron.

Though neither Bethany nor Dawnstar are very fleshed out or compelling, I feel like they were there to smile and nod. Merrill was super cartoonish to me though, from her thinking a mugging is a greeting to her apparently needing a ball of string to get around she was ridiculous and not believable. (I mean her dialogue and party banter were funny but she's clearly a joke character). I'm glad we're not getting more of the same boring milquetoast women and are getting varied and interesting characters created with as much care as the male characters and not just to prop up the player's ego.

[Deco]

Vivienne actualy looks very female if you ask me, but luckely we do not all fall for the same type of woman

[Seraphim24]

I'm liking your post just because now I have a better understanding of what your talking about, however....

 

Were we to add characters of the ilk you're asking for then we would be robbing the series of realism (as defined above), gravitas, and emotional resonance and weight; when someone can fight in bloody, brutal, vicious battles and then go home and be perfectly cheery and think about flowers, and how pretty the sunshine is, we steal the emotional value of the sacrifices the other characters are making; the ability to lead a normal life, for instance, or to be completely well-adjusted. The Inquisitor, Blackwall, Sera, etc., must all make personal sacrifice and take a certain amount of emotional and spiritual trauma in order to be noble, and save the world. If your proposed Character X comes along and saves the world while completely retaining their ability to be an emotional and spiritual innocent, as well as their wide-eyed optimism, then we step right out of realism and into a Saturday Morning Cartoon.

 

I feel like this is kind of what people strive for though isn't it? People who make personal sacrifices and take a certain amount of trauma, while also displaying great ability to connect and prosper as a vibrant emotional and spirtual entity. I'm sure many people want to be able to smash and grab, take the fight to everyone, but still be able to go back and be cheery and think about flowers. For any person who says "that's not possible" there is another that goes "well, maybe I could just about do it." 

 

The thing about realism to me is that it's bounded by our own personal imaginations. In the myths, there is the person who goes, no, no one could throw the rock that far or take down the giant, it's impossible, that story is a farce, but then there is that one kid who goes no I believe it's possible, and then that one overwhelming hero that pulls it off.

 

it might seem impossible that someone could have almost 'perfect' kind of blend of warrior spirit and emotional enthusiasm... but whatever I have in mind is apparently not quite DA:I. In some ways, the female character I have in mind isn't really present in any game or media necessarily, I want to see someone push the boundaries in all possible ways but this hasn't quite achieved that. I'm not asking to inject some lamer character in place of one here, I'm pinpointing the issue as a lack of femininity or softness, but that doesn't mean give me Mary Poppins.

 

Also, if it were so easy to just think about flowers and find nice quiet times to do fun things together, then I suspect it would occur more often. I don't want to cheapen the efforts and accomplishments of flower maidens like Aeris is all. It's one thing to look at the person who initiates conversation in order to be nice and friendly and make that person feel better and say that's all well and good and now I'm going to go out in the world and do the "important thing" like smashing things down, but another thing to actually "be" that person and see how complicated it can actually get, it's not like you get flowers and go "oh look I'm nice" now I'm done. The act I'm thinking of is one where a person really lets go of their need to look cool or meet some standard and just does that thing because they want to, because they like the color blue, or the rain, or whatever. Not being negative takes as much dedication as being negative and warrior like does, IMO. They're both important things, crushing the goblins, and looking off into the starry night.

 

Also, that very same person also might be perfectly capable of taking up a sword, and fighting the good fight, but that exciting dual combination is not really what I see often here.

 

Bethany is pretty cool, it's true, but Merrill is kind of on the boring side IMO. Heck, I'd take the DA:I women over the DA2 women in many ways. And what about Hawkes mother?? Urgh....

 

And the last bit then.

If you do this again in another thread, in a month's time or whatever is your want, then my advice would be not to say things that imply that any woman that doesn't live up to your standards isn't a woman. Aside from what should be the very obvious problems with that type of statement . . . ? Once you have said something like that, nothing else you say really matters much. At best what you're doing is giving people spears with which to poke holes in everything you say (as they/we gleefully did), and at worst what you're doing is making it so that some people will simply never, ever listen to anything you have to say on this forum again.

 

This part though... most of you guys have been taking this way too literally, like I was going "they aren't women." They are women, they are aggressive women, though, and there already aggressive men. There's aggressive everyone, that's my point. I don't even know what I would say now, if I detached it from genders and just said "nicer characters" then it's simply my sole remaining feedback post which people were like durr I don't know what you mean.

 

baking red velvet cupcakes in a frilly pink apron.

 

See it sounds like Peach from Super Mario RPG right?? But guess what, she also uses that frying pan to pursue and destroy a world destroying entity deep in the pit of hell.

[Seraphim24]

Actually on a slightly more serious note, Alicia Melchiott from Valkyria Chronicles is another good example. She started off as a baker but was conscripted into the army, and she's pretty focused and disciplined for most of the game. She doesn't take guff, etc. However, on one mission when it's just her and the commander, they use some herb to heal her and she gets carried away thinking about the potential bread recipes.

 

On another short scene later, during a break in the action, she bakes a whole bunch of bread for the commander... it's just a silly fun thing.

 

Then she goes right back to killing Nazis, rest assured.

[schall_und_rauch]

Am I the only one who feels that BW just can't please everybody?

Now they are being attacked for not including enough gender stereotypes in their games. Yes, I think that's pretty ironic.

[schall_und_rauch]

Also, the TO must have watched a different trailer than I did, because the first female female that shows up in my trailer is a figure of light and pure energy. And Sera is not only hurled against the wall, there's also a caption showing her cutting up a demon (is that a too manly thing to do as a rogue member for the inquisition?).

And there's a female Hawke.

 

I am also sorry that, apparently, the TO hasn't seen the first trailer which featured both Morrigan and Cassandra very prominently, or the various gameplay videos, which show various female Inquisitors, and a lot of Vivienne and Sera. She might have also missed the dragon fight video, where three out of four party characters are female (as well as the dragon itself).

Or she might have seen it, but chose not to mention it.

[Gwydden]

I haven't played those games, I cant comment on those characters, I have to research them before I can say anything. 

 

You describe a woman "feminine" as someone that wont pick up a sword.  That is ridiculous in a warzone, less they are peasants. I do not want a peasant that doesn't know how to fight.  I don't want to have to worry about a team member that cant defend herself.  She is useless if she cant fight.

You mean like Josephine?

 

Killing things is hardly the only useful thing people can do.

Though neither Bethany nor Dawnstar are very fleshed out or compelling, I feel like they were there to smile and nod. Merrill was super cartoonish to me though, from her thinking a mugging is a greeting to her apparently needing a ball of string to get around she was ridiculous and not believable. (I mean her dialogue and party banter were funny but she's clearly a joke character). I'm glad we're not getting more of the same boring milquetoast women and are getting varied and interesting characters created with as much care as the male characters and not just to prop up the player's ego.

I don't particularly like any of those characters, but I think saying they're only there for an ego boost is going a little to far.

Am I the only one who feels that BW just can't please everybody?

Now they are being attacked for not including enough gender stereotypes in their games. Yes, I think that's pretty ironic.

I don't think there's anything wrong with characters who fit gender stereotypes. I happen to know one of the girliest girls that ever girled. She is also smart, curious, and adventurous. That she likes pink has nothing to do with that.

[Grieving Natashina]

I was with the OP, until she called three female characters men.  For...reasons.  I've read them, and they still are just as silly.  This is coming from someone that made several long posts about the lack of female companions a few months back.  It's okay to be frustrated, but calling them "men" is just too far.  

 

For example, Cassandra reminds me a bit of this incredible lady.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica  She was a Queen and a warrior, that gave the Romans a run for their money in 60 AD.  At a time when Rome was extremely powerful, she had them running scared for awhile.  She was so awesome, and things ended up going so poorly for quite awhile for the Romans, that Emperor Nero almost gave up on Britain because of it. 

 

Before you start labeling the female companions as men for a few personality traits, do some research into history.  The roles women have had are far more diverse than a lot of pop culture and stereotypes would say otherwise.  I'm very shocked you called Vivienne "masculine," as she seems to be the most feminine companion we've had so far in DA.  Sure, Leliana talked about fashion, but Vivienne actually shows it.

 

To each their own, but since they aren't going to change the companions...and since Frostbite's engine is known for being hard to mod, you're probably going to have a bad time.  

[Gwydden]

For example, Cassandra reminds me a bit of this incredible lady.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica  She was a Queen and a warrior, that gave the Romans a run for their money in 60 AD.  At a time when Rome was extremely powerful, she had them running scared for awhile.  She was so awesome, and things ended up going so poorly for quite awhile for the Romans, that Emperor Nero almost gave up on Britain because of it. 

A strong contender for the Classical Trio of Awesome in my book, along with Alexander and Caesar.

 

Fun fact: she was known for worshiping a Celtic goddess of victory called Andraste. Supposedly she and her warriors would call her name when going into battle.

[mopotter]

I haven't played those games, I cant comment on those characters, I have to research them before I can say anything. 

 

You describe a woman "feminine" as someone that wont pick up a sword.  That is ridiculous in a warzone, less they are peasants. I do not want a peasant that doesn't know how to fight.  I don't want to have to worry about a team member that cant defend herself.  She is useless if she cant fight.

Side note:  Peasants can fight and did, women as well as men.  Chinese peasants fought in 1840's Spanish peasants fought against Napoleon troops.  You don't have to use a sword.  Medieval peasants fought with clubs, spears, hoes, scythes, pitchforks.  You just have to be willing to die for your freedom or in some case, fight or die because you refused to fight.  

 

However, I also don't want a team member who can't defend themselves, unless we can train them, but that's probably not possible.  Game of Thrones is not one of my must watch shows, but I love Arya and how she has learned to fight.  I wouldn't mind a kid in the group if it was one like her.  Enjoyed Mission in KOTOR.

 

Back to post.  going to check out the games mentioned.  OK  never mind.  I am not a big fan of FF any more.  Played some of them years ago and eventually it was too movie like.  Did enjoy playing FFX and X2  but tried XIII and quit about 1/2 way through.  I'll take the BioWare women any day.  The men too. 

[Mirrman70]

this whole being a tough merciless killer in battle and then returning home to be nice and cheerful is very unrealistic. why? PTSD. I had a friend who went to Afghanistan. Outside of going to work and getting groceries and stuff he never leaves his house. Combat changes people in real life, if a game is striving for realistic characters I expect it to change them to. The female character that is still able to be warm, loving and accepting after killing dozens of enemies and watching as her allies are cut down in front of her... that is just plain, unnerving insanity going on that "pretty" little head.

[Gwydden]

this whole being a tough merciless killer in battle and then returning home to be nice and cheerful is very unrealistic. why? PTSD. I had a friend who went to Afghanistan. Outside of going to work and getting groceries and stuff he never leaves his house. Combat changes people in real life, if a game is striving for realistic characters I expect it to change them to. The female character that is still able to be warm, loving and accepting after killing dozens of enemies and watching as her allies are cut down in front of her... that is just plain, unnerving insanity going on that "pretty" little head.

People are different. I have known military men who were perfectly normal while at home. Heck, both my grandfathers are on that list.

[Mirrman70]

People are different. I have known military men who were perfectly normal while at home. Heck, both my grandfathers are on that list.

 

PTSD wasn't recognized back then it was called "shell shock" and other stuff like that, they were taught to ignore it, to tough it out. Something changes though, I have yet to see a veteran that didn't have some form of depression or anxiety disorder after they returned. sometimes they recover and sometimes they don't. but something will always change.

[BroBear Berbil]

Don't know the character personalities. I've been avoiding as much info about the game as I can, though a female Dwarf companion would have been welcome.

 

A strong contender for the Classical Trio of Awesome in my book, along with Alexander and Caesar.

 

 

 

Can't see why. She doesn't seem all that impressive militarily.

[Ser Pounce A Lot_]

Though neither Bethany nor Dawnstar are very fleshed out or compelling, I feel like they were there to smile and nod. Merrill was super cartoonish to me though, from her thinking a mugging is a greeting to her apparently needing a ball of string to get around she was ridiculous and not believable. (I mean her dialogue and party banter were funny but she's clearly a joke character). I'm glad we're not getting more of the same boring milquetoast women and are getting varied and interesting characters created with as much care as the male characters and not just to prop up the player's ego.

 

This really irks me. Just because Merril's a bit socially awkward doesn't mean she's a "joke" character. And she was fleshed out as good as any character in DA2. She had her own goals, desires, and interests. She wasn't just there for the "player's ego". The Keeper arc was one of the interesting parts on DA2.

 

 

Just because she doesn't fit your feminist Ideal of a female, doesn't make her any less of a good character.

[Puppy Love]

Yes there is always change, but some people's changes are different.  To say all people will become morose, negative, and introverted is simply not true.  Different people adapt differently, different people get through it differently.  The mind is a very difficult thing to define and it is erroneous to assume all will turn out the same.  There's many ways for the mind to break, and some people are simply more mentally resilient than others.  Known lots of war vets on both sides of this.  Some had issues, others could laugh and be merry with the best of people, went on to lead completely normal, happy and productive lives.  I would not say there's a damn thing wrong with them for doing it either.  They, their wives, and there kids are perfectly happy.  That said, know a guy that goes from job to job, because his anxiety keeps getting the best of him.

 

The issue here is that, what's being asked for is someone caring, kind and nurturing.  To say a person cannot both be a warrior and have these traits is terribly erroneous.  Some people fight precisely because they care about others and because they must, not because they want to.  Such a person will seek peace when they can, but likely fight more fiercely to protect their friends and loved ones than you could possibly imagine.  There is the ferocity of the mother bear in many of the hearts of some of the most nurturing people you meet.  Such a person fights because they feel they must, because they believe it is the only way to protect what they love, what is most dear.  When a friend stumbles on the field, they are the first to their side to help them up, when there is strife in the group, they are quick to mediate, to make sure the group does not fall apart.  When someone dies on the battle field, they suck it up and see to the emotional needs of the others who are suffering.  They cry when the time is right.  There are people who put others above themselves, who find meaning in caring for others.  Such a person when put to task, will often try harder, because it's only by helping and caring for others, by trying to make that difference that they can make sense of the horror around them.  If such a person survives, they will likely continue to seek to help others when they get home, if the war is extra bad, they might be the ones to fight the war and come back and protest against the horrors of war, because they saw the pain first hand and felt it.  There are many ways it can play out.

 

If, however, you're going to tell me no soldiers are ever kind, and decent to others, and seek to help when and where they can, especially while out on the field, I call BS.

[Gwydden]

Can't see why. She doesn't seem all that impressive militarily.

And I can't see anything impressive about Alexander that is not military.

 

Seriously, Caesar is the only versatile guy in the bunch.

[coldflame]

And I can't see anything impressive about Alexander that is not military.

 

Seriously, Caesar is the only versatile guy in the bunch.

He is so versatile that he is able to turn himself in to a dagger sheath

[Nefla]