550 réponses à ce sujet

[aTigerslunch]

or move to off topic forum?

[Seraphim24]

I tend to think that somewhere in all of this is an important point about creating well rounded fictional characters.  Personally, I found that several of the characters in DA:2 were a bit uni-dimensional.  They had one all consuming issue and that was all they ever talked about.  It seemed to be less of an issue in Origins.  Someone like Leliana for instance was a complex character torn between her assassin past and her desire to be a better person by seeking some sort of absolution through the Chantry.  It's what lies at the heart of great fictional characters: genuine inner conflict.  Talking to Leliana was interesting because she was questioning and trying to find her way.  Contrast that with a character like Fenris.  He's clearly in turmoil, but it's uni-dimensional and unchanging.  He starts the game resolutely anti-mage and ends it more or less the same.  There's no inner conflict.  His mind is made up so there's nothing to debate.  It's a lot less compelling from the point of view of the player hoping that Hawke might actually help the character in any way other than simply enabling their obsession to continue unabated. 

 

I disagree, there is something to be said for characters who struggle with issues left and right, but there is also something to be said for characters who are authoritative and go on impulse. I'm not really sure either character by themselves works great, but together they turn into something fascinating. I thought Leliana was kind of dreamy and interesting in Origins, but probably slightly too much, whereas Fenris is as you say kind of just one-way the whole way. There isn't any reason both can't be brought together.

 

Bioware characters are biased towards the former, not the latter, it's something I long ago attached to genders but even after I've just plain rescinded it many times people keep beating up on it. I was thinking of these traits as more frequently found in women, and as tending to be more those types, and given the gender imbalance, it would of made sense to inject more into those kinds of characters.

 

Solas is interesting in the trailer because he grabs the Inquisitor's hand and forces him to move, that was the only part that really interested me in the entire trailer. It certainly wasn't the women (and yeah, some men) getting beat up and thrown around in their terror and fear at this unknowable force of evil, it was the decisiveness in a kind of open minded professor type that was interesting to me.

 

I'm well aware that most of you still think you are trying to beat into me what makes these characters and style of characterization special, but I've not really seen any of you show the same interest in what I'm saying. I can frankly acknowledge the human traits or special natures of these people for endlessly questioning these things in their mind, but in assuming I'm not grasping the value or interest in parts of these characters, most everyone here, seems not to be grasping the value of the things I'm interested in, it just seems to be recurring. If people don't see anything in the likes of Grace, or Fenris, or whatever, then I guess I shouldn't be surprised at their relative absence. (outside of maybe Sera)

 

I personally have no great deal of use for the most brilliantly lucid struggler of all time, it's decisions and actions that matter just as much. It's sad when Mists of Pandaria with it's trifling bit about the Panda favoring action and the Panda favoring reflection and openness does moral complexity better than DA, but that's quite literally how I felt about at least that particular situation. I seriously questioned whether to join the Horde of Alliance after their play, whereas I can't remember caring about a decision in Dragon Age for some time. DA is predominantly Aysa (the reflective Panda) and a lot less Ji (the decisive Panda).

 

Honestly, though, I get it, that's just how you feel, you wouldn't be this excited for the game if you felt differently.

[aTigerslunch]

The two points I mentioned previous post, we agreed upon.

 

 

We only know very little, wait till we actually play the game to see what those characters are like. As far as those characters you brought up, I am not really interested in most Japanese rpgs, just one, Dragons Dogma.  The rest are, meh...   If they have good stories that is fine, they cant grasp my attention to well, just like most precreated protags. I don't get into games too well playing set characters. Unless I can see it as a movie watching (very long movie) as in Batman, AC, and Lara Croft. Blue Dragon and Dragons Dogma were my two J-RPGs, one only played once (BD) the other twice (DD). Which they do tend to lack replayability with me, lack of choices. I mostly cared about BD cause it was Dragonball design only, no intention to play it again. Just like most premade protag games, only a one shot deal for me, most times not replayable to me.

 

And that is why I said move thread off topic, those are not related DA.

[tirnoney]

 DA is predominantly Aysa (the reflective Panda) and a lot less Ji (the decisive Panda).

 

I don't play jRPGs so I can only go on what you've said about them.  Which of those two er 'pandas' the companions and advisers will vere towards is hard to say at the moment.  With decisive characters there is an issue of player autonomy.  Fenris was decisive, but the Hadriana thing annoyed a lot of players.  It's not just about making interesting characters.  A lot of people felt railroaded through much of DA2 because so many decisions seemed irrelevant.  Everyone was doing their thing regardless of any intervention from Hawke.  In Origins, Fereldan and its people can be in wide range of states by the end of the game.  Kirkwall, not so much.

 

Grace is an interesting character, but her story arc makes no sense if you're a pro-mage Hawke.  I think that's because they didn't appear to have the budget to write different outcomes so just shoehorned any options you thought you had into one outcome in Act 3.

 

What about Loghain?  The interesting range of outcomes with his character was a lot better I thought.  Love him or hate him, it's hard to deny he was a complex character.

 

What do you make of Sten then?  He was all decisive and not reflective it seems to me.  Talking to him was hard work.

 

Perhaps the thing to do is to create characters that are a balance of reflective and decisive.  Not sure where that balance is though.

[Allan Schumacher]

wear a dress into battle is "basically a man" so a thread

Was this actually stated in the thread?  (I haven't been able to read very much of it.

[Nicholas Nunes]

I think there should be more female options for the male inqustions 

 

 

Female options only: 

 

Blackwall

 

Sera

 

Solas

 

Male options only:

 

Cassandra

 

Dorian

 

Both:

 

Cullen

 

Iron bull

 

Josephine 

 

 

Feels quite unfair for those who want to play the male inqusitor.

[Seraphim24]

Was this actually stated in the thread?  (I haven't been able to read very much of it.

 

I just re-read all my posts and if someone did it wasn't me. Honestly I pretty much give up. I spent a very long time trying to persuade people about various things and basically failed the entire time. If I had to summarize my main point, it's that the BW characters are all too mean, and I want someone nicer, but it started off with noticing there weren't as many female characters, and that the few remaining female characters were "kind of mean." I used masculine and feminine to sort of equate mean and nice, and people had a lot of problems with that, which is fine and all but honestly my main goal was to emphasize the lack of niceness, but associating men and women with characters was too much to take so that took up a ton of time. The stuff on this last page is a more lengthy way of the same idea.

 

(I'm still kind of boggled there are only 3 female companions though)

[SardaukarElite]

I wouldn't mind some gentler / nicer characters thrown in, or perhaps less overtly aggressive. A quiet character would be interesting, I don't see many of those - certainly not in talk heavy games.

[WildOrchid]

I think there should be more female options for the male inqustions 

 

 

Female options only: 

 

Blackwall

 

Sera

 

Solas

 

Male options only:

 

Cassandra

 

Dorian

 

Both:

 

Cullen

 

Iron bull

 

Josephine 

 

 

Feels quite unfair for those who want to play the male inqusitor.

 

Nah. It's fair.

[Vapaa]

I think there should be more female options for the male inqustions 

 

 

Female options only: 

 

Blackwall

 

Sera

 

Solas

 

Male options only:

 

Cassandra

 

Dorian

 

Both:

 

Cullen

 

Iron bull

 

Josephine 

 

 

Feels quite unfair for those who want to play the male inqusitor.

 

If you want to complain, can't you at least get your facts rights ?

[SardaukarElite]

Jacob-cheats on you and knocks up another woman

 

To be fair, she was Hawke.

[Tayah]

I think there should be more female options for the male inqustions 

 

 

Female options only: 

 

Blackwall

 

Sera

 

Solas

 

Male options only:

 

Cassandra

 

Dorian

 

Both:

 

Cullen

 

Iron bull

 

Josephine 

 

 

Feels quite unfair for those who want to play the male inqusitor.

I thought Cullen was female only... at least that's what Mike Laidlaw said or did I miss something?

 

Also regarding the bolded: male inquisitors get four options; Cass, Josie, Iron Bull and Dorian.

 

Semantics aside since I think you mean straight male inquisitors; yes you get two, same as gay male inquisitors have two and same as a lesbian inquisitor who also has two. Bi inquisitors of course have everyone depending on race and straight female inquisitors hit the jackpot because they have four depending on race gating and I couldn't be happier for them especially after what they had to deal with in ME. As a lesbian I was happy we got two options and while I would have liked Viv to be bi I'll live with the disappointment and still be happy for my straight female friends who actually got so many good options this time around. (At least I think... hope they're good options for them). 

 

Also if you're asking for fairness why are you being so unfair? 

[Lady Luminous]

I have to say, I think that's being more than a little callous and insensitive to say that three of the females in DA:I are like men. I definitely think you just alienated a good chunk of your audience who may have been on your side. 

[Nefla]

Was this actually stated in the thread?  (I haven't been able to read very much of it.

Yes.  from the OP: "Additionally, those remaining 3 women are basically men. Cassandra the sergeant, Vivienne the executive, and Sera the tomboy."  Another gem from page 2: " I personally am not satisfied with the fact that a woman simply has the physique of a female, I was hoping for one who transmitted a real feminine presence. Sera, Vivienne, and Cassandra are all feminine to a degree I'm sure, and in fact represent real personalities in many ways, but they don't overwhelm me with femininity. It's not based purely on their physical presence (tomboy with Sera), it's based on their just not having a profoundly powerful feminine presence, personality etc, to counter all the macho-ness."

[karushna5]

Was this actually stated in the thread?  (I haven't been able to read very much of it.

the OP wanted more nice, reflective, feminine characters. Most of the thread was more over them calling the 3 women we do have in the party, "basically men" while they tried to explain what they meant by more feminine, and turned into a long argument about what is masculine and what is feminine.

[Seraphim24]

Yes.  from the OP: "Additionally, those remaining 3 women are basically men. Cassandra the sergeant, Vivienne the executive, and Sera the tomboy."  Another gem from page 2: " I personally am not satisfied with the fact that a woman simply has the physique of a female, I was hoping for one who transmitted a real feminine presence. Sera, Vivienne, and Cassandra are all feminine to a degree I'm sure, and in fact represent real personalities in many ways, but they don't overwhelm me with femininity. It's not based purely on their physical presence (tomboy with Sera), it's based on their just not having a profoundly powerful feminine presence, personality etc, to counter all the macho-ness."

 

I was re-reading, you are the one talking about taking a long dress into battle etc., I never said anything about that.

[aTigerslunch]

Nefla was being sarcastic in couple of her posts.

I given three points in what Kefka was trying to discuss outside of that feminine and masculine stuff.


1) Have more meaningful, more downtime with companions.

2) To see more personality of our companions (need to play the game to see more about them though)

3) more females

[Seraphim24]

Ok, well, that's fine then. I guess I just find Bioware to be veering from one extreme to another. They are so deadset on a crusade against the hapless damsels and weak women/men, that they end up creating majorly over-aggressive type of characters. This sort of pendulum swing doesn't "counter-balance" the other types of characters out there by retribution against the weak empowering the strong. it just replaces one stereotype with another.

 

A year or some years from now, I'll bet people will be going yeah, I want my character to be tough and strong, but it's also ok to have those kind and soft moments also. We don't want to make a hapless damsel, but there is something to be said for gentleness and devotion also.

[Grieving Natashina]

May I say again that it's far too early to judge??  Why don't you get to know these characters before you start declaring that they aren't feminine enough for you.  This is a BioWare game, yet you're using Alpha footage to judge your characters.  Funny, because when I play a BioWare game, I play and to get know the companions for their personality.  

 

I happen to know from EU that Cassandra is a romantic.  She does have a softer side...which you have to get to know her to see.  I think you're crazy to call all of the women not feminine enough for you.   Like with most of the BioWare characters, the looks are just the very beginning.  If I had gone only by looks, and some sort of arbritary outdated sense of feminity,  I would have missed out on several female LIs.  Pretty much all of them except for Liara.  

 

Leliana, going only by looks, by your definition, with her short hair, bow and leather armor, could be seen as a tomboy.  By your standards, even a small braid in her hair wouldn't be enough.    Before you say, "Well, didn't you get to know her first? She likes kittens and shoes and is very sweet."  I would encourage you to do the same for the companions of DA:I.  For all we know, Sera could love picking flowers and spouts bits of poetry in her romance; Cassandra could have a very vulnerable moment talking to Inquisitor, where we see a sweet smile.  Vivienne could show to have compassion for the poor and hungry, despite the attitude she publicly shows.

 

I'm still reeling over Vivienne being not feminine enough for you.  The dress, the way she walks, her use of the term "dear" a lot, and she's not feminine enough?  Boy, I'd hate to see the standards you have set for femininity.  Or how about Josie, who seems quite feminine, and has been described by her writer as being gentle, utterly devoted to the Inquisitor?  

 

Also, tomboys can't be feminine?  Alrighty then, I'll make sure to tell my friends that like shooting guns and wearing jeans that they aren't enough of a women for some people.

 

I've been reading your posts and it's come off very passive-aggressive towards the DA team, BioWare and anyone that disagrees with you.  I would advise to just let this one go, and wait until the game comes out.  If the game launches, and you still feel that the ladies of the Inquisition aren't feminine enough for you, then restart this thread.  I'm more likely to take your opinions about the DA:I companions seriously after you get to know them.  As it stands, you're using Alpha footage, a few snippets of description, and a fear of a lack of femininity to judge your views.   Isn't that a little silly?

[Seraphim24]

May I say again that it's far too early to judge??  Why don't you get to know these characters before you start declaring that they aren't feminine enough for you.  This is a BioWare game, yet you're using Alpha footage to judge your characters.  Funny, because when I play a BioWare game, I play and to get know the companions for their personality. 

 

I guess that puts you and me in opposition to (virtually) everyone else here, with the endless proliferation of concerns about physical appearances. Also, DA:I doesn't have special treatment, I'm also not interested in playing Destiny because it seems problematic, for some reason, I bet more people here would agree that that is completely ok, despite not having played it yet.

 

Leliana,

 

not a companion, and honestly it's kind of recycling a character.

Josie

 

not a companion, and quite honestly, somewhat stereotypical and apparently for that reason more interesting to people here than me. I don't want a boring side character that gives peppy speeches or something, I was hoping for a companion front and center, actually in the battles, but retaining a kind of softer character. That point just seems to bounce off people, they immediately remove it from the center and hurl it off into impractical or unrealistic. Their refusal to believe in the reality of certain characters (from other games, media) or the concept is precisely why the game is weaker than it could otherwise be.

 

 

I'm still reeling over Vivienne being not feminine enough for you. 

 

I don't know what Vivienne is supposed to be. She is supposedly dressing like Maleficent and somewhat like her, but she is the Lady of Iron a la Margaret Thatcher, but in practice she is a very dedicated employee to her organization. Um, wouldn't Maleficent be out in the forest burning up towns or something?

 

Also I would dispute her fashion sense, her dress looks like an experimental lamp design from Ikea. At any rate, I don't grasp her character, from this world or another world. The fact that she was the least desirable romantically (based on some poll) doesn't surprise me at all. If anyone embodies an outdated sense of femininity, it's her, not whatever I have in mind.

 

 

Cassandra could have a very vulnerable moment talking to Inquisitor, where we see a sweet smile.

That would be nice, the only time I really noticed that was when Morrigan started to almost cry in Origins, but for the most part these characters (and really, a lot of BSNers) automatically associate that kind of thing with being a weak enfeebled thing no one wants to be around. I'm pretty sure it's up to her since we're probably not getting that from Blackwall or Varric. Nevermind the fact that characters who always make a big deal out of how tough and rough they are are weak enfeebled things that I don't want to be around.

 

Also, tomboys can't be feminine?  Alrighty then, I'll make sure to tell my friends that like shooting guns and wearing jeans that they aren't enough of a women for some people.

 

My original description of sergeant, executive, tomboy, was really trying to capture their personality. I wasn't saying Cassandra, etc, weren't feminine necessarily, it was more that personality-wise, they seemed to be making a point of not being too feminine. Sera is kind of arguably not really tipping one way or the other.

 

She likes kittens and shoes and is very sweet."  I would encourage you to do the same for the companions of DA:I. 
 

 

I would stay away from such terms, I was excoriated for mentioning such hobbies as emblematic of femininity. Frankly, I don't even disagree with that notion, it's going to be whether there are some Morrigan-like moments that decides whether they really have emotional empathy, not simply, I like cute things.

 

I've been reading your posts and it's come off very passive-aggressive towards the DA team, BioWare and anyone that disagrees with you.  I would advise to just let this one go, and wait until the game comes out.  If the game launches, and you still feel that the ladies of the Inquisition aren't feminine enough for you, then restart this thread.  I'm more likely to take your opinions about the DA:I companions seriously after you get to know them.  As it stands, you're using Alpha footage, a few snippets of description, and a fear of a lack of femininity to judge your views.   Isn't that a little silly?

 

Well, allow me to make it more overt, with a few exceptions, I think these characters are on the weak side, and I guess that means the DA team is to blame. Of course criticism is critical.... it's not really possible to make it any other way. Sera seems like a standout.

 

Anyway, I pretty much have let go. In fact, I let go numerous times in the past, but I promised I would actually make my complaint known (ordinarily, just leave it be). I never imagined so many people would want to discuss this particular issue. I suppose I would agree more on the wait until after point if this wasn't already festering in DA:O, then amplified in DA2, and finally seeming like it's reaching it's apex in DA:I. I did, at least, play those other 2 games, and I felt like the characterization was increasingly one dimensional, and it's like, the exact same company making DA:I and all. /Shrug. Nevertheless, I'm sure I'll read some reviews or things after it's out, but I'm not going to risk 60 dollars with so many concerns just yet.

 

Lastly, there are never going to be more than 3 female companions vs. 6 male ones, that's not going to change after getting the game. How Bioware imagined they would be progressive and in favor of woman being central and strong figures but then blindsiding their actual representation in game is beyond me. The fact that the remaining women are allowed in only after much is done to emphasize "how manly they are," only fuels my concerns. Why shouldn't the men should be allowed in only on the basis of how empathetic and sympathetic they are capable of being? The Inquisition needs people that can fight and people that can feel.

[Muspade]

And the trend of driving in circles continues...

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

These threads should all be merged or something

[LonewandererD]

Wow, 16 pages and I don't think we went anywhere. I think this has just devolved into who can get the last word in.

 

-D-

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Wow, 16 pages and I don't think we went anywhere. I think this has just devolved into who can get the last word in.

 

-D-

 

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