550 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Ok, where the hell are you hiding your copy of Dragon age: Inquisition ?

 

In their head

[Muspade]

In their head

 

Quick, scalpel!

We can save this!

[Ellestor]

I was going to say: It seems like submissiveness is what you want, and that's fine, but I'm not sure what its place would be among the heads of an organization that is out trying to do things in the world.

 

But then this happened:

 

All the men, and much of the women in DA, strike me as pretty timid/submissive/shy boring.

 

 

And this:

 

At any rate, the example I mentioned from an actual DA game was Grace, a character with actual guts. Sera kind of has guts, Vivienne definitely doesn’t, Cassandra might. Solas might, even though he’s a man. That’s it.

 

And I definitely have no idea what you're talking about anymore.

[Bugsie]

And I definitely have no idea what you're talking about anymore.

So many times I've been about to respond then re read the comments made by the OP, so yeah, on one hand they call them submissive, shy timid, then with the other they're saying the characters are overly aggressive and macho.

Last I understood, timid, shy and submissive were antonyms to aggressive and macho. But you don't have to take my word on that, try any English dictionary. That's right, a place where words are explained and given meaning! They're not just meaningless abstract terms!

I find it a odd that the OP paints the DA:I female characters as strong independent women (in reference to Cass, Sera and Vivienne) who are overly aggressive yet they are timid, shy, submissive and boring (that last one can only really be discussed with any validity after the game is out).

All I can say is I thought/think I understand what the OP wants, but then I could pull out a dozen quotes where they contradict him/her self. And I'm all...



I think the OP wants to see traditional feminine characters that like to go out and fight demons by day at your side, but then come home and bake you some cookies and give you no argument. That's it, that's the only thing I understand... Well I think I do...

[Lady Luminous]

So many times I've been about to respond then re read the comments made by the OP, so yeah, on one hand they call them submissive, shy timid, then with the other they're saying the characters are overly aggressive and macho.

Last I understood, timid, shy and submissive were antonyms to aggressive and macho. But you don't have to take my word on that, try any English dictionary. That's right, a place where words are explained and given meaning! They're not just meaningless abstract terms!

I find it a odd that the OP paints the DA:I female characters as strong independent women (in reference to Cass, Sera and Vivienne) who are overly aggressive yet they are timid, shy, submissive and boring (that last one can only really be discussed with any validity after the game is out).

All I can say is I thought/think I understand what the OP wants, but then I could pull out a dozen quotes where they contradict him/her self. And I'm all...

I think the OP wants to see traditional feminine characters that like to go out and fight demons by day at your side, but then come home and bake you some cookies and give you no argument. That's it, that's the only thing I understand... Well I think I do...

 

A variation of freak in the streets; sweet in the sheets? 

[Seraphim24]

Hm, I think it's just in a video game context, these 'macho' men seem like submissive male fantasies of macho men. The dissatisfaction is fundamental, but I still am not entirely sure how to phrase that exact problem.  I could call them excessively macho as evidence of obvious overcompensation, or fundamentally submissive characters making poor imitations, either way, it's not very interesting. I can smell the submissive influence, even though they are presented otherwise. That isn't inherently bad but it's inherently unbalanced.

 

Personally I am not getting this man dominant female submissive thing. In reality, women are on average more dominant than men. The reason being they usually have (again, generally) greater ability to independently express and act on their own sexual desires. This is the hallmark of dominance. Wallowing in violence and the need to improve over someone and fulfill the organization's whims are fundamentally submissive acts from my POV. This defines most of the DA characters.

 

It seems to me the hostility and confusion was generated from the idea that somehow I'm annoyed that these (in my mind, fundamentally submissive) characters shouldn't act and be aggressive and tomboyish and whatever, but that's not my point. My point is that their acts of independence could be a lot stronger. Instead of fully embracing their desire to be attractive and do what they want, they're seem obverly burdened by the need to act a certain way and do things a certain way. The short hair for instance for Cass and Sera, for instance, seems to fulfill a certain "norm" about independence should be expressed, rather than feeling like genuine independent expression. The fact that it's an avant-garde tumblr norm as opposed to the typical standard mainstream Time magazine norm doesn't make it any less normy and submissive behavior from my perspective. It makes it slightly more interesting, perhaps, but when I can see it springing from the same tree, I'm not as excited. I'd rather be confused as to what to think.

 

If anything, they should be even more intense. More like Grace, in essence, a kind of more complete brashness would make the more compelling. Cassandra feels a bit too much like, I can be kind of romantic, say what I want, feel what I want, in bits and pieces, but I feel like they're all pulling back too much to fit in with the men and the need to beat down the bad guys in the Inquisition.

[Bugsie]

Well it would have been much clearer if you had stated that when you mentioned 'submissive'.  I'm not sure if your lack of clarity in stating what you think these characters are, is unintentional or deliberate.  It's hella confusing though.

 

 

Wallowing in violence and the need to improve over someone and fulfill the organization's whims are fundamentally submissive acts from my POV. This defines most of the DA characters.

But we know very little about the story or how the characters fit in with the narrative... 

 

 

 

Personally I am not getting this man dominant female submissive thing. In reality, women are on average more dominant than men. The reason being they usually have (again, generally) greater ability to independently express and act on their own sexual desires. This is the hallmark of dominance.

 

Wallowing in violence and the need to improve over someone and fulfill the organization's whims are fundamentally submissive acts from my POV. This defines most of the DA characters.

I cant even with that first part I can't... it's painful to even read.

 

In the second part - the organisation, and the task that the inquisitor is given by said organisation drives the narrative I am at a loss as to what you think the inquisitor is supposed to do - roam around Thedas saying 'Whassup dudes?  How about that veil tear *wink*'

 

 

 

obverly burdened by the need to act a certain way and do things a certain way

Plot, narrative, characterisation, ummm all those things needed to tell a story perhaps?

 

 

The short hair for instance for Cass and Sera, for instance, seems to fulfill a certain "norm" about independence should be expressed, rather than feeling like genuine independent expression. The fact that it's an avant-garde tumblr norm as opposed to the typical standard mainstream Time magazine norm doesn't make it any less normy and submissive behavior from my perspective. It makes it slightly more interesting, perhaps, but when I can see it springing from the same tree, I'm not as excited. I'd rather be confused as to what to think.

 

 

 

If anything, they should be even more intense. More like Grace, in essence, a kind of more complete brashness would make the more compelling. Cassandra feels a bit too much like, I can be kind of romantic, say what I want, feel what I want, in bits and pieces, but I feel like they're all pulling back too much to fit in with the men and the need to beat down the bad guys in the Inquisition.

I've tried really hard to understand what you're talking about.

 

LOL nope.

[aTigerslunch]

I thought I had it understood, but I gave up after my last post to figure it out.  I dont think I want to continue trying to figure it out and what someone else said, it makes sense to link those example characters but, I still have no desire to even bother with those titles yet.  They dont grasp my attention. 

[Lennard Testarossa]

[Seraphim24]

The thing is I never used the term submissive, that was other people that brought that up, so I was trying to explain myself in response to that.

 

I saw the Firefly movie and I thought it was cool, I never saw the actual series though I am very familiar with that it is worshipped to the ends of the earth, but it was only 1/2 of what I like in something. Clever and witty is great and all, but so is taking an aggressive stand on something, or just being completely direct.

 

I wouldn't say I'm biased against clever and witty, that's great. In fact, it's probably the reason I don't watch very much anime. but too many times I find myself thinking "thats kind of all this person has to offer, isn't it?"  Clever is also kind of passive, it shows skill but it also can serve as a shield towards taking an actual stand on something and having philosophical core to act upon in conflicting situations.

 

Like if hypothetically (in a game) there's a crisis of food or something and the peasants are going to rebel, the characters might debate and then a DA character will go something like "we should definitely get the biggest roast out there, sit down on the grass right in front of them, and have a nice big feast, they'd lovve that." (Ok, I'm just trying to make something up) Then everyone has a round of applause, but I also would seriously rather also know WTF are we going to do? What's your actual opinion, Alistair? Then the DA character usually wilts away, oh I just make witticisms, I don't actually have any idea, you are making all the decisions and I go errrghhhh....

 

I'm getting the sense DA:I is striving for more balanced characters that aren't just one shot re-creations of D&D archetypes. Unfortunately, I'm not sensing any real warmth or passion, just a cheap imitation of it. There is nothing really clever and witty about a lot of anime or JRPGs, so clearly a lot of people enjoy it for this other thing that I'm getting at. Pretty much every other character is boiling over with warmth and passion. The BG2 version of Viconia was probably the closest thing to showing it, in all her psycho glory she was more warm than these gentrified types like Aveline or whatever. Or maybe DA:O Morrigan. DA:2 I didn't respond to any characters outside of as I said, Grace (for at least feeling honest), and uh... Bethany? I guess?

 

Edit: Actually Firefly does more than that, it's clever and it's got some heart. Something like the Wire or something though is akin to trash.

[Magdalena11]

I was going to say: It seems like submissiveness is what you want, and that's fine, but I'm not sure what its place would be among the heads of an organization that is out trying to do things in the world.

 

...

I think you hit the nail on the head, Ellestor.  The inquisition is composed of successful people.  People don't become successful unless they have the strength to overcome obstacles, so weak-willed, submissive people aren't likely to be among the companions and advisers.  Even people like Cole, Solas, and Sera, who don't fit into a definition of success that includes social acknowledgement, have achieved validation.  For Cole, just overcoming the limitations of his existence and realizing it doesn't matter might be considered success.  For Solas, he's an elf, and a mage, and he's overcome those limitations (I'm a subscriber to the ancient elf theory as well, if that means anything.)  Sera is probably a leader of the Friends of Red Jenny.  We don't know who we delivered the box to in Denerim, or what was in it.  We found the box in Irving's desk, near Flemeth's decoy grimoire, and learned where to leave it after looting the body of an assassin, and a little girl laughed when we presented it.  There are a lot of hints that she's more than she appears.  

 

People have mentioned Josephine as an example of a successful woman who's sweet and stays at the keep.  I think that's a potentially costly underestimation of her influence and character.  Think of the amount of control the traditional family matriarch holds.  She stuffs you with food when you go to visit and remembers everyone's birthdays with cute and embarrassing gifts, but you know better than to cross her if you know what's good for you.

[Lady Luminous]

 

I wouldn't say I'm biased against clever and witty, that's great. In fact, it's probably the reason I don't watch very much anime. but too many times I find myself thinking "thats kind of all this person has to offer, isn't it?"  Clever is also kind of passive, it shows skill but it also can serve as a shield towards taking an actual stand on something and having philosophical core to act upon in conflicting situations.

 

 

Did I just read you right? Someone being witty doesn't have a philosophical core?

 

First of that hogwash doesn't make sense, and secondly being witty or sarcastic isn't mutually exclusive to having other traits. 

[Steelcan]

what is going on in here

[Lady Luminous]

what is going on in here

 

Just me being flabbergasted. 

[Ina]

what is going on in here

 

I've been trying to figure out for the last few minutes reading all the replies. I just...I don't know. 

[MissDragon]

Yes, the world needs to be full of females... innit   

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is nothing really clever and witty about a lot of anime or JRPGs

We clearly watch different animes and play different JRPGs.

[RobRam10]

[Steelcan]

Ok I reread everything thinking that maybe I could get it

 

 

it didn't work

[Lennard Testarossa]

We clearly watch different animes and play different JRPGs.

 

He didn't say 'all', he said 'a lot of'. And he's completely right.

There are great anime out there, but the majority of anime are complete garbage.

[Muspade]

 

 

You're 17 pages late.