550 réponses à ce sujet

[X Equestris]

I honestly do not see an issue here. Bioware is the last place I would accuse of being unfair in their male-to-female ratios. They provide incredibly well-written characters of every race/gender/gender-preference, isn't that what matters instead of some notion that everything has to be 50/50? Let's face it, if they were to write their games based on "realistic ratios", we would have far fewer minority and gay/lesbian characters, not to mention women in combat roles. I will say it again, this is not an issue on which anyone should shame Bioware (of all developers).

I agree. Imbalances are fine, as long as the individuals are written well. Genders don't need to be balanced.

[Lady Nuggins]

Given that the PC and the companions essentially form an elite combat unit, I don't see why it would be unexpected that there are more males than females. It's certainly not unrealistic.

 

In a world where people can blow each other up with magical fireballs, why would it be less realistic if more of them were women? 

[Nefla]

In a world where people can blow each other up with magical fireballs, why would it be less realistic if more of them were women? 

In a world where a male warrior can kill a massive dragon with just two daggers, it's unrealistic for a woman to be able to fight at all.  People are funny.

[Grieving Natashina]

When I was reading, "In a world," from you guys, I kept hearing the Movie Announcer Guy.  

[Lennard Testarossa]

In a world where people can blow each other up with magical fireballs, why would it be less realistic if more of them were women? 

 

"It has dragons" isn't an argument for anything other than the existence of dragons. "It has magic" isn't an argument for anything other than the existence of magic.

 

In this case, 'muh fireballs' does actually have some validity, because it is indeed the case that there is no real reason why there should be a sex imbalance among the mages of your group. And Bioware has indeed used this quite extensively:

Six out of nine mage companions in the three DA games are female, five out of six in the first two games.

 

The existence of magic, however, does not have anything whatsoever to do with the physical capabilities of people who aren't mages. And unless the biology of humans in Thedas is drastically different in general or sex imbalances in the general population somehow don't translate to the most physically capable few (which is pretty much the opposite of what one would expect, given that due to the nature of Gaussians differences are amplified at the far ends), one would expect a strong sex imbalance among melee warriors.

[X Equestris]

In a world where a male warrior can kill a massive dragon with just two daggers, it's unrealistic for a woman to be able to fight at all.  People are funny.

Realistically, trying to kill a dragon with melee weapons ought to result in that individual getting roasted.

[Grieving Natashina]

@Lennard

 

 

That's a rather interesting and very poor excuse to have less female fighters.  There is so much wrong in this post I don't know where to start.  The only thing I'm curious about is why having more female fighters would be a bad thing.   So, dragons, magic, fireballs, demons, spirits, darkspawn, golems...all perfectly fine.  Having more women?  Nope, that's the line right there.  

 

It's odd that I see that mindset still clung to despite a few minutes of google searching that'll tell you that women can and have been front line fighters in the past.  Or that the US military last year allowed women into front line combat as fighters (not as convoy drivers or the like,) because they were able to be just as good of soldiers as men.   FFS. 

 

Screw it, I'm going to have my coffee and get ready for my party.   Anyone else want to tackle this level of ridiculousness?  

 

 

Realistically, trying to kill a dragon with melee weapons ought to result in that individual getting roasted.

 

Exactly.

[Nefla]

"It has dragons" isn't an argument for anything other than the existence of dragons. "It has magic" isn't an argument for anything other than the existence of magic.

 

In this case, 'muh fireballs' does actually have some validity, because it is indeed the case that there is no real reason why there should be a sex imbalance among the mages of your group. And Bioware has indeed used this quite extensively:

Six out of nine mage companions in the three DA games are female, five out of six in the first two games.

 

The existence of magic, however, does not have anything whatsoever to do with the physical capabilities of people who aren't mages. And unless the biology of humans in Thedas is drastically different in general or sex imbalances in the general population somehow don't translate to the most physically capable few (which is pretty much the opposite of what one would expect, given that due to the nature of Gaussians differences are amplified at the far ends), one would expect a strong sex imbalance among melee warriors.

Yet no one bats an eye when male Hawke and his human, elf, and dwarf companions can kill Qunari by the score. I don't see any complaints of "unrealistic!" when a male hero kills an Ogre with a sword or dagger. The difference in physical strength between a male human and a Qunari, ogre, bear, or dragon is waaaay bigger than the difference in physical strength between a male human warrior and a female human warrior yet people always come back and harp on "hur wiminz fightin' iz unreelistik!!11!" and say nothing about any of the other stuff.

[X Equestris]

 
That's a rather interesting and very poor excuse to have less female fighters.  There is so much wrong in this post I don't know where to start.  The only thing I'm curious about is why having more female fighters would be a bad thing.   So, dragons, magic, fireballs, demons, spirits, darkspawn, golems...all perfectly fine.  Having more women?  Nope, that's the line right there.   FFS.
 
Screw it, I'm going to have my coffee and get ready for my party.   Anyone else want to tackle this level of ridiculousness?

I for one have no problem with female fighters. There are numerous examples throughout history. They may not be as common as men, but there isn't any denying they existed.

[Lennard Testarossa]

 

That's a rather interesting and very poor excuse to have less female fighters.  There is so much wrong in this post I don't know where to start.  The only thing I'm curious about is why having more female fighters would be a bad thing.   So, dragons, magic, fireballs, demons, spirits, darkspawn, golems...all perfectly fine.  Having more women?  Nope, that's the line right there.   FFS.

 

Screw it, I'm going to have my coffee and get ready for my party.   Anyone else want to tackle this level of ridiculousness?  

 

I literally just explained how existence of magic doesn't justify anything other than that magic itself, and yet you follow the same faulty 'muh fireballs' line of thinking again. And I don't care what is "good" or "bad", that's not what we're discussing here.

 

Yet no one bats an eye when male Hawke and his human, elf, and dwarf companions can kill Qunari by the score. I don't see any complaints of "unrealistic!" when a male hero kills an Ogre with a sword or dagger. The difference in physical strength between a male human and a Qunari, ogre, bear, or dragon is waaaay bigger than the difference in physical strength between a male human warrior and a female human warrior yet people always come back and harp on "hur wiminz fightin' iz unreelistik!!11!" and say nothing about any of the other stuff.

 

I didn't say anything about women fighting being unrealistic.

[Grieving Natashina]

I for one have no problem with female fighters. There are numerous examples throughout history. They may not be as common as men, but there isn't any denying they existed.

Oh I didn't think you had.  I hope you saw my edit about who that was directed to.  You slipped in your post right before I sent mine, so I edited it.    Sorry for the confusion.  

[X Equestris]

Oh I didn't think you had.  I hope you saw my edit about who that was directed to.  You slipped in your post right before I sent mine, so I edited it.    Sorry for the confusion.  

No worries. I figured it was a point worth making anyway.

[Lennard Testarossa]

@Lennard

 

It's odd that I see that mindset still clung to despite a few minutes of google searching that'll tell you that women can and have been front line fighters in the past.  Or that the US military last year allowed women into front line combat as fighters (not as convoy drivers or the like,) because they were able to be just as good of soldiers as men.   FFS. 

 

And how does that have anything to do with what I wrote? Anything at all?
 

We aren't talking about "Can women be fighters" (well, at least I am not), we are talking about statistical distributions. Sure, there are female fighters. But they aren't 50%. Which is my point.

[Thibax]

Oh God! Another "let's vanish men in games" topic in Dragon Age forum.

Since when the world has gender balance?

A story need freedom of mind to be created. Not rules of how many stuff of each must have.

If someone is not happy with the quantity of something in DAI game, look for a game that can fulfill its necessities

[Grieving Natashina]

 

Oh God! Another "let's vanish men in games" topic in Dragon Age forum.

Since when the world has gender balance?

A story need freedom of mind to be created. Not rules of how many stuff of each must have.

If someone is not happy with the quantity of something in DAI game, look for a game that can fulfill its necessities

 

You might want to read the thread.  No one wants men to just vanish in games.  That's just absurd, and I think you know it.   I haven't seen hardly anyone ask for men to just "vanish."  I have seen folks ask for more equality, not to favor one gender over the other.   It's being perceived as women asking for more than their share.  Which is not true.

 

There has even been a number of studies about that mentality.

 

http://www.pbs.org/s...rejudice/women/

 

PS:  The average number women and men worldwide are about equal in population.  Our world has gender balance, so why should Thedas be any different?

 

https://www.cia.gov/...ok/geos/xx.html

 

The sex ratio for the entire world population is 101 males to 100 females.

 

[Nefla]

I didn't say anything about women fighting being unrealistic.

You just said men fighting is more realistic. "And unless the biology of humans in Thedas is drastically different in general or sex imbalances in the general population somehow don't translate to the most physically capable few (which is pretty much the opposite of what one would expect, given that due to the nature of Gaussians differences are amplified at the far ends), one would expect a strong sex imbalance among melee warriors." It's been established through all three games that the physical capabilities of the people of Thedas are far outside the capabilities of real people. They can swing swords the size of surfboards with one hand, backflip 12 feet across the battlefield, kill things 50 times their size through strength alone, get stabbed, shot with 20 arrows, burned, fried, chewed up and spit out by a dragon and shrug it off to walk away. You disregard the extremely unrealistic fact that a human can kill a monster the size of a barn with melee weapons, ignore the fact that you and your enemies can be eviscerated and shrug it off, but harp on the gender ratio of melee fighters because while all those other things are fine, an equal number of men and women fighting is unrealistic.

[Panda]

I don't think realistical reasons can be used as excuse in fantasy game. Why realism must imply in gender roles and physiology when it comes to woman as warriors but not when people can swing sword bigger than them, used magic, one party of 4 people can kill army of whatever etc.

 

I have seen fantasy stories that have only women as fighters and men are reduced to the one's who can't fight and are weak. Not ideal either but at least gives out some balance to this male dominance games have had for ages (not talking about DA necessarily) ^^;

[Thibax]

Natashina, I really don't care how many men and women exist at all.

I just said because it's another random topic asking for more females characters again and again and again.

I have no problems playing as man or woman.

If someone have, it's not my fault and nor Bioware's fault.

[Lennard Testarossa]

You just said men fighting is more realistic. "And unless the biology of humans in Thedas is drastically different in general or sex imbalances in the general population somehow don't translate to the most physically capable few (which is pretty much the opposite of what one would expect, given that due to the nature of Gaussians differences are amplified at the far ends), one would expect a strong sex imbalance among melee warriors." It's been established through all three games that the physical capabilities of the people of Thedas are far outside the capabilities of real people. They can swing swords the size of surfboards with one hand, backflip 12 feet across the battlefield, kill things 50 times their size through strength alone, get stabbed, shot with 20 arrows, burned, fried, chewed up and spit out by a dragon and shrug it off to walk away. You disregard the extremely unrealistic fact that a human can kill a monster the size of a barn with melee weapons, ignore the fact that you and your enemies can be eviscerated and shrug it off, but harp on the gender ratio of melee fighters because while all those other things are fine, an equal number of men and women fighting is unrealistic.

 

...you clearly don't understand the part you quoted. Otherwise you would have realized that what I supposedly disregard is addressed in that very quote.

 

(As a side note: people in Thedas can't be eviscerated and live. They can't be shot with 20 arrows and live. There are differences between animation and in-game combat mechanics on the one side and lore on the other.)

[Nefla]

 

Natashina, I really don't care how many men and women exist at all.

I just said because it's another random topic asking for more females characters again and again and again.

I have no problems playing as man or woman.

If someone have, it's not my fault and nor Bioware's fault.

 

There have been what...two whole threads about this?

 

...you clearly don't understand the part you quoted. Otherwise you might have realized that what I supposedly disregard is addressed in that very part you quoted.

 

(As a side note: people in Thedas can't be eviscerated and live. The can't be shot with 20 arrows and live. There are differences between animation and in-game combat mechanics on the one side and lore on the other.)

The way you worded your post suggested that you don't believe people in Thedas are different that real people. If you did, then why bring it up and why harp on the gender ratio at all?

[Grieving Natashina]

@Thibax Well, this is the Feeback forums.  We're giving feedback, reasonable feedback at that.   You aren't going to change our minds, and we're probably not going to change yours.   So don't worry, I won't be addressing you again.

 

BioWare employees (including David Gaider and Allan Schumacher) engage with us on these topics often, so they don't think it's a waste of time.  If anything, in panels and interviews, they talk about how much they value the feedback they've gotten from the players.   They've talked for years about increasing levels of inclusion, and have continued to work towards it.   They've not only talked about the inclusion and role of women in Thedas before, they aren't afraid to try even new levels of inclusion.  DG even talked about writing an asexual romance down the road.  I can pull up the footage from Gaymer X if you'd like proof.

 

Oh and two threads about the subject isn't "everywhere."  There is more threads about gameplay than there is about NPCs/various representation here in the Feedback forums.  

 

If anything, the attitude of BioWare has directly contradicted your words.  They do care, so we'll continue to post.  Don't like it, don't post in the thread.  

[Joseph Warrick]

On women warriors!

 

When the land is forced to resist an invading force, women and men fight equally. Groups where women are less welcome are, for example, death squads and the conquistadores. Aggressors basically.

 

DA:O was Ferelden united against a Blight. DA:I is a campaign to protect the land from a demon invasion. Both of them are resistance movements. Actions to protect one's own nation against an aggressor. Where women have been abundantly present throughout history, as illustrated in the link.

[Thibax]

I don't know how many topic exist about this. It's just a common theme. I don't have patience to count and I am not neurotic about this.

 

 

And Natashina, I am not against you. We are just talking.

[Lennard Testarossa]

The way you worded your post suggested that you don't believe people in Thedas are different that real people. If you did, then why bring it up and why harp on the gender ratio at all?

 

As I said, it's addressed in that very part you quoted.

 

The general assumption would be that the average person in Thedas functions pretty much like a normal human being does in our world. This would certainly lead to a strong sex imbalance among the common soldiery.

 

It also seems to be the case that there are some people who have physical capabilities which we would consider superhuman. (Though to which degree is uncertain. As I already pointed out, one cannot take what is displayed in combat animations as lore.)

 

With the way Gaussians work, one would expect differences in the common population to be strongly amplified among the most physically capable few. And if not amplified, at the very least preserved. So it stands to reason that one would expect to find a strong sex imbalance among people with superhuman physical capabilities.

 

The only reasonable way to avoid this would be to have a common population in which these differences do not exist. This, however, would constitute a massive change of human social dynamics, which we have not seen reflected in the lore.

[Seraphim24]

I personally do not even necessarily get into the points about the reality of Thedas, because as Nefla was saying you already leap 30 feet around and fling a 50 lb sword around like it's a piece of paper. This whole additional business about women fighting is peanuts compared to that. How exactly do dragon's wings work, according to physics? Oh wait, dragons don't even exist, that's why these questions are fairly silly IMO.

 

The point from my perspective is that this is a freaking video game, you can do whatever you want, for the most part. Most females I'd wager would enjoy the game more if they had more female characters to interact with/play in the game. They would also take it as a sign that the game doesn't have any particular bias against females. As it stands, the "Important, fighting" roles are allocated primarily to men, whereas women are (primarily) the "advisors" who stand outside the fighting and give you tips and peppy speeches. This isn't sexist? If you want to suffocate their enjoyment for some abstract reality reason in a fantasy world (for some reason) go for it, but all that does is subtract from the enjoyment of a portion of people playing the game. If you care about the end goal experience of the person playing, there's no reason not to have it. If you care more about the laws of physics (again, in a video game, trying to entertain), and are willing to take away from the experience of the player, then you might as well forget making a fantasy game in the first place.

 

To be honest, it smells like an attempt to curb representation not in the direct "ew women" kind of way, but in a clever, oh but this would logically contract this or that. Never mind the other logical contradictions or why we should even really care about logical contradictions in a fictional world with fantasy things that don't exist in the first place. If I'm making a game, and I'm thinking character balance, I immediately think 50/50 split, pretty much without exception. With 9 characters at least a 4/5 split.