550 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

If IronBull's pass times were cooking, knitting, designing Viv's dresses, and nurturing rescued kittens back to health he would still be the awesomest badass to walk the earth. And Cass isn't any less of a woman for wanting to beat the crap outta people and save Thedas.

 

He would, because then he might show an exciting combination of masculine and feminine characteristics, but that isn't the case. Believe it or not, my first request was simply to see more characters interested in knitting and baking and stuff like that, in just a general non-gender specific way.

 

Moreover, if all the characters past times were cooking, knitting, and designing dresses, who is to say I wouldn't be unhappy that there aren't enough masculine characters? Hmm?

[Seraphim24]

No believe me, we all get your 'larger point'. You aren't some misunderstood crusader all alone in your fight for justice and equal representation. You are either deliberately or through a stubborn amount of ignorance being radically insulting to a vast array of people and you aren't helping accomplish this thing you supposedly want.

 

If you're really sincere, please take the time to carefully think through some of the more polite and well worded requests that have been sent your way and see if you can't figure out what some of the issues are.

 

Never said I was, sounds like you might be though.

 

I'm just sitting here increasingly bored with the trend of games to be macho all the time.

 

If you're really sincere, please take the time to carefully think through some of the more polite and well worded requests that have been sent your way and see if you can't figure out what some of the issues are.

 

The ones with swear words bleeped out? Or the ones dramatically mis-characterizing my posiition? Sure, I'll hopefully get back to them at some point.

 

If you people really want to twist my arm that badly, then I guess DA;I does a better job than Watch Dogs? The characters are more multidimensional than them? Sure? I barely follow or acknowledge those other games at this point though is all there is to it.

[SirGladiator]

Just sticking to the 'name' of the thread anyway, I'd like to agree with the idea that there should've been more female characters.  Having literally twice as many male teammates as female teammates simply makes no sense.  Had Iron Bull been female then the ratio would've been 5-4, which would've been entirely reasonable, but 6-3 is just plain wrong.  It's not like they didn't have years to design and develop the characters, if somebody told me they had 3 years to think of 4 female characters, but in that time they could only think of 3, I'd probably say they need to re-take writing 101 .  That really is a point that should be emphasized, especially when you consider that the female characters aren't just equally as fun as the male characters, in most cases they're 'more' fun, so we're losing twice, once on the basic issue of fairness, then again on the fun factor, which given that this is a game is probably an even more important factor overall.  So hopefully in the future there will be more female teammates, I'm tempted to say the next game should be 6-3 female just to even things out, but in all fairness, I'd settle for 5 female 4 male . 

[AlexiaRevan]

Look , I told you before that english wasn't my birth language right? So bear with me and dont get offended . 

Why everyone seem to be pissed at your topic . Is that while your request is fair 'I want X kind of female in the game , because I,m tired to see same old same old' . That , is a fair request . 

Where everyone got pissed , is that the way you said it , it came off as alot homophobic in 1 , 2 very very conservatrice and 3 very very insulting . Why? Because the way it came out : it was as if you didn't care that many ACCEPT the actual delivered females in the game already and are swooning over them . And you come along , and say 'ARGH Thats soo gross ! I want Barbie like female ! This was done before , they all look butch , they all look too manly , enough ! Give me Princess with long hair and dress' . Which you like it or not , is no way to request something . Maybe you didn't mean it like that . But that is how it came out . 

You cant ask for a certain bread and pee on the rest while everyone want the rest . 

[Seraphim24]

Look , I told you before that english wasn't my birth language right? So bear with me and dont get offended . 

Why everyone seem to be pissed at your topic . Is that while your request is fair 'I want X kind of female in the game , because I,m tired to see same old same old' . That , is a fair request . 

Where everyone got pissed , is that the way you said it , it came off as alot homophobic in 1 , 2 very very conservatrice and 3 very very insulting . Why? Because the way it came out : it was as if you didn't care that many ACCEPT the actual delivered females in the game already and are swooning over them . And you come along , and say 'ARGH Thats soo gross ! I want Barbie like female ! This was done before , they all look butch , they all look too manly , enough ! Give me Princess with long hair and dress' . Which you like it or not , is no way to request something . Maybe you didn't mean it like that . But that is how it came out . 

You cant ask for a certain bread and pee on the rest while everyone want the rest . 

 

Why was it so insanely conservative and insulting? I just don't get it. Did you bother to read the examples of female characters I put forward? (Lucina and Zelda?) I didn't put any examples of the kind of female character I'd like to see, nor did I say that the currenty characters were necessarily 'bad' or deny that they might resemble real people, who are probably perfectly good and fine people, or any of that, I just myself personally have something in mind that isn't present. 

 

Has literally no one grasped that all these counter-criticisms are infinitely more sexist than I could ever hope to be? You all have been taking potshots at some imaginary super-submissive female character I've never once advocated, whereas I personally have never actually said I didn't like Vivienne, or Cassandra, or Sera. I might of met a Sera or Vivienne the other day, and thought they were an awesome person. For all you know, I like them just fine, I just am not seeing this other thing like some other people I know.

[coldflame]

@KefKa112. Wow dude it is like you against the whole army of them. Even against ridicules from all sides, you still stay true to your believes. The quality of great activist. Quite admirable, because normally when people face a little opposition to their ideologies they would just abandon ship to choose to conform with the masses.

[Seraphim24]

. And you come along , and say 'ARGH Thats soo gross ! I want Barbie like female ! This was done before , they all look butch , they all look too manly , enough ! Give me Princess with long hair and dress' . Which you like it or not , is no way to request something . Maybe you didn't mean it like that . But that is how it came out . 

You cant ask for a certain bread and pee on the rest while everyone want the rest . 

 

I don't have control over you making up what I said to not resemble anything that I actually said, so I don't know what to tell you.

 

You cant ask for a certain bread and pee on the rest while everyone want the rest . 

 

I didn't... whats so hard to understand about that? I come across masculine women and feminine men all the time, many of them are interesting, many of them do interesting things.

 

This 'particular' game with this 'particular' cast just seems very bro-like to me, the end.

[Marshal Moriarty]

I think that whilst the ratio does matter (they can spin it however they like, but just 3 women in a party of 9 is very disappointing), I think its only as problematic for me, because I'm not impressed with any of the ones that *are* in the game. And don't anyone start on the whole unattractive thing - that's not what I mean at all. I just don't find any of the 3 characters leap out at me as being particularly interesting. And that's how I feel about most of the other characters too. To stay on topic though, my point is that if 1 or more of the characters did seem genuinely intriguing or promising, then it wouldn't feel so deflating. Because having just 1 character you really love is always better than having 50 characters you don't care about etc etc. But since none of the 3 interest me at first blush, that makes the fact that there so few seem all the more of a bad decision.

 

Cassandra for example, seems like an irritable yet determined woman, compared to the more easy going male lead (presumably Varric again). But it seems like Bioware are constantly using this archtype for their leading women (Bastila, Miranda, Morrigan, Aveline). I was kind of hoping for something different this time. Vivienne... well, Bioware don't have a great ttack record with ambitious female characters. Bastila was often panned for being a snooty so and so, Morrigan had a special mod created so people could slap her because she was so annoying to them (no, I don't use such things), Velanna is much criticised and is probably most people's least favorite character from Awakening, Miranda is also considered a bit of a pain by many etc etc.The idea of ambitious women who don't feel the to coddle or please those around them is fine, but Bioware's execution of that is frequently lacking IMO. Plus it means the romance is always 'thaw out the ice queen with your earnest and sincere love etc etc'.

 

We don't know for sure yet of course, but if these characters are much more interesting than they appear, then that suggests the initial reveals and intro pieces for the characters have failed. Because when you unveil characters, you should be trying to really sell them and engage people. Its just my opinion of course, but as this thread suggests, at least some other people agree. There aren't enough women in the party, and the ones we have seem rather underwhelming and overly familiar. 

[AlexiaRevan]

It was insulting in the way you formed your word . For one , you haven't played the game or head them talk and you are already dismissing them . Conservatrice , in the way you described them 'In Power' 'TOMBOY' . Like those are Eeeky! Women cannot be that . It is soo old . Overdone . 

That is fine . You can say that is what I want , can you Bioware please in your futur game include X and Y kinda of female Type . But don't deny it . You did pee on the actual female we have . And that is what got everyone mad . 

Believe it or not . But your first post came out like that . And yes , I looked at Lucina . 

This correct ?

 

And this Zelda ? 

 

[Seraphim24]

It was insulting in the way you formed your word . For one , you haven't played the game or head them talk and you are already dismissing them . Conservatrice , in the way you described them 'In Power' 'TOMBOY' . Like those are Eeeky! Women cannot be that . It is soo old . Overdone . 

That is fine . You can say that is what I want , can you Bioware please in your futur game include X and Y kinda of female Type . But don't deny it . You did pee on the actual female we have . And that is what got everyone mad . 

Believe it or not . But your first post came out like that . And yes , I looked at Lucina . 

This correct ?

 

And this Zelda ? 

 

I didn't say women can't be that, but it sounds to me like you are saying women can't be the other way. That's kind of the issue. Also, I still didn't "pee on them" as you describe, I described them from my perspective.

 

Honestly, I'm thinking specifically of like the SS Zelda incantation.. but she wasn't in the game a whole lot and wasn't really a companion. To be perfectly honest it's hard to think of a really great example... you know Rena from Star Ocean 2 actually was pretty great.

[KC_Prototype]

So you don't like any games with a male protagonist? 

[Seraphim24]

So you don't like any games with a male protagonist? 

 

This appears to have nothing to do with my suggestion, but no I would say there's all kind of random games that appeal to me. Actually I mentioned Zelda already Link has always been pretty cool.

[AlexiaRevan]

Seriously ? I'm not making up anything ! 

 

Here what you said : 

 

Additionally, those remaining 3 women are basically men. Cassandra the sergeant, Vivienne the executive, and Sera the tomboy.

Then You say this : 

 

 

Basically someone that isn't waiting with baited breath to "get" someone argumentatively, or is otherwise predisposed being negative or cynical or weird about every little thing. That would be a starting point, but it would take a lot more than that. Probably a lot more conservative, generally.



Actually, an essential element would be that they don't tend to give commands like DEFINE THIS, just as an example.

Then this is what set everyone on fire : 

 

Oh yes they can, but feminine "stereotypical" whatever the phrase you want to use women usually are not.

[Seraphim24]

I described Cassandra and Sera and so on as being kind of masculine. That is not a value judgment.

 

I associated masculinity with negative or cynical or weird about every little thing. I still didn't make a value judgment, being cynical and weird has it's role.

 

I also said feminine "stereotypical" women usually aren't hard charging executives, marines, or Robin Hood types. Do I need to bring up statistics from the U.S. Military to support this claim?

[AlexiaRevan]

 

but it sounds to me like you are saying women can't be the other way

The opposite . Womens are a beautiful thing . I'm a lesbian in real life , and I don't care how they look . Be them butch with a tie , or long heel and dress . That doesn't matter to me . 

The only thing I care about in the games I play , is that 1) I can be a female and 2) I can smooche another female . Be her human , Qunari , be her look Asari ...it doesn't matter to me . What matter to me is her personalitie and her belief . I will never romance someone say like Ashley no matter how smoking hot she is , just because her belief and mine will clash . 

So yeah , they can add someone like YOU want them to be . And in the end , I don't care she is wearing Sissi like dress , or she is a Lumberjack in her day off . Her personality is what will win the day . If she can make me laugh , cry , make me want to kick butt for her , or maybe she be the one saving my hide . It doesn't matter , a game has endless possibilities .

[Seraphim24]

The opposite . Womens are a beautiful thing . I'm a lesbian in real life , and I don't care how they look . Be them butch with a tie , or long heel and dress . That doesn't matter to me . 

The only thing I care about in the games I play , is that 1) I can be a female and 2) I can smooche another female . Be her human , Qunari , be her look Asari ...it doesn't matter to me . What matter to me is her personalitie and her belief . I will never romance someone say like Ashley no matter how smoking hot she is , just because her belief and mine will clash . 

So yeah , they can add someone like YOU want them to be . And in the end , I don't care she is wearing Sissi like dress , or she is a Lumberjack in her day off . Her personality is what will win the day . If she can make me laugh , cry , make me want to kick butt for her , or maybe she be the one saving my hide . It doesn't matter , a game has endless possibilities .

 

Ok... so... thanks for making my point? I guess?

[AlexiaRevan]

 

But just because we're celebrating women moving into these kinds of roles, does not also mean we can't celebrate women that want are the calm and gentle types, that also happen to enjoy a really nice dress? Isn't that the true meaning of diversity?

It is . None is denying we need more different type of womens . Not me . Just that it was phrased in a way that hit a sensitive cord in many . That is all . 

Maybe we hold on dear , because Bioware is the only compagny of game that is really really trying to include not just womens but as well as diverse sexual orientation . 

[Seraphim24]

It is . None is denying we need more different type of womens . Not me . Just that it was phrased in a way that hit a sensitive cord in many . That is all . 

Maybe we hold on dear , because Bioware is the only compagny of game that is really really trying to include not just womens but as well as diverse sexual orientation . 

 

I see, well you don't need to consider me an enemy to your cause (as many have already done), I'm simply a person that likes a calm and nice female person, and wants to see that kind of person from time to time, perhaps as a fighter type, or maybe not. And that doesn't necessarily mean some helpless female that's alone in the tower and can't be saved either or a prostitute from GTA. Not all calm women with a a gentle streak have to be that way.

[AlexiaRevan]

You are not my ennemy , never were lol 

Your english is good , but remember the way we say thing in a text format can be taken in many different way . There is always someone who will misunderstand your meaning . 

I hope you will give these females romances we are getting a chance . And I hope in the futur , they will include more 'diverse' kind . for all of us . 

[SardaukarElite]

I see, well you don't need to consider me an enemy to your cause (as many have already done), I'm simply a person that likes a calm and nice female person, and wants to see that kind of person from time to time, perhaps as a fighter type, or maybe not. And that doesn't necessarily mean some helpless female that's alone in the tower and can't be saved either or a prostitute from GTA.

 

Perhaps next time you can avoid referring to women as 'basically men' because they aren't calm and nice. You can hold up an example of what you want without complaining about what is, and it won't turn the thread into a battle you aren't interested in fighting.

[Seraphim24]

Perhaps next time you can avoid referring to women as 'basically men' because they aren't calm and nice. You can hold up an example of what you want without complaining about what is, and it won't turn the thread into a battle you aren't interested in fighting.

 

That is not a complaint, I described them as masculine-ish, again, just like many women and men are feminine and masculine-ish in the real world. For all you know, Sera and Vivienne and Cassandra are my favorite DA:I characters.

 

Also, I already noted that if I didn't address that issue, then presumably Bioware could address my concern by giving Blackwall a sex change, but keep the rest of his personality precisely the same. I wanted to guard against that kind of possibility in one way or another.

 

Interestingly, if I didn't do that, then I would, in fact, be sexist and extremely superficial because I would be valuing people not on their personality but rather their superficial characteristics. It's funny how the part that was actually not sexist was the most controversial part of my post. Meanwhile, the first, arguably more sexist and superficial, part about focusing on the superficial element (lack of pure physical female presence) was not controversial.

[aTigerslunch]

@Kefka, If you have an issue with Action games/ action RPGs or anything involving with action, then may want to step back and just watch the sunset instead? 

 

You do realize Nefla was sarcastic on that post you quoted her with about the female body, dress with long hair?

 

 

Vivienne is feminine, she may crave power but she is definitely female. She dresses up, and wants to be stylish. She is the high class character. Kefka, you are looking for a feminine character specifically, look at her. Josephine also tries to look good as well, she is concerned about her looks but not as strongly as Vivienne is. You have two styles of feminine women. Just because one likes power doesn't make her less of a woman, while the other tries to keep peace amongst others. Cassandra is feminine, but she isn't interested in clothing styles or how she looks in regards of high class society. Cassie is where you may find a lot of women feel more a kinship with, I can say majority of my cousins personalities match her in more ways than they did of the previous two I mentioned, women I work with match Cassie more as well. IF they are slightly more concerned about their looks, they tend to push towards what Josie is. Sera is wild, and I have a few cousins that match her style, several of my female friends fit her style as well, just wear whatever and not care. They are not less feminine.

 

 

EDIT:  Agree with SarduakarElite:  The words used is what caused a flame. Next time, if just want more women, just say... Please, more females for us to go along with?

[Seraphim24]

@Kefka, If you have an issue with Action games/ action RPGs or anything involving with action, then may want to step back and just watch the sunset instead? 

 

You do realize Nefla was sarcastic on that post you quoted her with about the female body, dress with long hair?

 

Vivienne is feminine, she may crave power but she is definitely female. She dresses up, and wants to be stylish. She is the high class character. Kefka, you are looking for a feminine character specifically, look at her. Josephine also tries to look good as well, she is concerned about her looks but not as strongly as Vivienne is. You have two styles of feminine women. Just because one likes power doesn't make her less of a woman, while the other tries to keep peace amongst others. Cassandra is feminine, but she isn't interested in clothing styles or how she looks in regards of high class society. Cassie is where you may find a lot of women feel more a kinship with, I can say majority of my cousins personalities match her in more ways than they did of the previous two I mentioned, women I work with match Cassie more as well. IF they are slightly more concerned about their looks, they tend to push towards what Josie is. Sera is wild, and I have a few cousins that match her style, several of my female friends fit her style as well, just wear whatever and not care. They are not less feminine.

 

No I don't, it sounded pretty serious to me. Also I prefer action games to be honest for the most part. Watching the sunset sounds pretty boring to me right now. I can just refer you to the part about "making up things I haven't said" though also.

 

The promotional materials describe Vivienne as "The lady of Iron," and in fact, her personality seems to mesh closely with a Margaret Thatcher type for the most part. I interpreted her fixation on clothes as a byproduct of her fascination with power, dressing to impress, not necessarily as a byproduct of pure fashion sensibilities. I'm sure in her exists in some genuine feminine energy, just like Aidan Pierce from Watch Dogs has a hint of femininity buried away in there somewhere. Ok, probably more than him even, to be fair.

 

Josephine is just not a companion, I get that's not satisfying to people but it's still true they had 9 opportunities to put a pretty straightforwardly feminine character in the limelight and they chose not to do so.

 

Cassandra I'm sorry but... the first trailer she's going YOU ARE THE ONLY THREAT I SEE while holding a sword to his throat, forgive me if I don't perceive her as particularly gentle.

 

Sera is probably the most feminine (in essence, again).. she is somewhat interesting to me but it's disappointing that that somehow finds expression as wild and reckless and thieving. It suggests a kind of fear about real female expression. It's better than nothing though, I guess.

[SardaukarElite]

That is not a complaint, I described them as masculine-ish, again, just like many women and men are feminine and masculine-ish in the real world. For all you know, Sera and Vivienne and Cassandra are my favorite DA:I characters.

 

Oh, you aren't complaining, you just take every given opportunity to declare that these characters don't live up to your definition of femininity? There has been a terrible misunderstanding then, I'm dreadfully sorry.

 

 

Interestingly, if I didn't do that, then I would, in fact, be sexist and extremely superficial because I would be valuing people not on their personality but rather their superficial characteristics. It's funny how the part that was actually not sexist was the most controversial part of my post. Meanwhile, the first, arguably more sexist and superficial, part about focusing on the superficial element (lack of pure physical female presence) was not controversial.

 

It's funny how you ignore the part people actually object to, and talk about what they aren't objecting to and hasn't happened instead.

[aTigerslunch]

I didn't make up words. You said in a previous post (I cant quote on this laptop) that your tired of all these so big and epic and hard charging and heartpounding and wish for it to given rest. YOU said that. I said, if it bothers you so much, watch the sunset then. That is why I said it. posted date 01:37 on 8/31/14. Your words, you did say them Kefka.  I didn't force anything into your mouth you didn't say.

 

Vivienne is your high class, high maintenance type female. Clothes isn't a fixation on power, its a fixation on appearance. She is the upper class high society females of the 1600 to 1900 century type women from what I saw and feel. She wants power yes, but she uses class.

 

Josie is going to be just as important as any other companion, as an advisor she still has the same amount of stuff as a companion does, just cause she doesn't walk around with you doesn't leave her out of the picture, less of course you prefer to ignore her existence.

 

Cassie might not be gentle there, doesn't make her less feminine. So, a child being punished by a mother makes her less feminine then, cause she also isn't gentle while punishing a child.

 

 

 

I will let Nefla say if she was sarcastic or not for you Kefka, but her words were sarcastic. Its how I read it and don't forget who is quoted as well has to be part of that conversation to know the tone too. It helps anyways.