550 réponses à ce sujet

[sunnydxmen]

they showed men more cause men rule the world and we are awesome.

[GeminiParadox]

I think I see what OP is trying to say...

Other than Josephine, all of our DAI female characters come across as hardened. They are fighters, thieves, spies, and social climbers. I don't think most of us have an issue since we love seeing female characters portrayed in such diverse, interesting ways.

I think OP is asking for more female characters like Bethany: kind, calm, and diplomatic and not overly aggressive or hardened. I don't think a character like this would necessarily be submissive, weak, or cowardly. But the OP messed up by asking for "real ladies" and calling Cassandra and the other DAI women "basically men." I'd like more quiet, calm, polite, intellectual characters in general that can still fight well when the situation calls for it.

[Steelcan]

the character you want already exists, play ME

[Deviija]

I think OP is asking for more female characters like Bethany: kind, calm, and diplomatic and not overly aggressive or hardened. 

 

I think Leliana and Wynne fit that bill in Origins.  Leliana was very feminine, sweet, charismatic, calm, kind, romantic and idealistic.  Wynne was very tough love maternal, but calm, sincere, diplomatic counsel when it suited, a healer that literally looked after the wounded and tended to people.  In DA2, Merrill was very cutesy and feminine, far from aggressive, innocent, very cerebral vs. combative, thoughtful.  Bethany.  And in Inquisition, we do have diplomat Josephine.  These women are represented, they are part of the Dragon Age franchise, and it's puzzling to me how they're not enough or apparently do not "act like a woman" enough.   

 

 We're getting a diverse spread of women, each solving their problems differently -- Josephine diplomatic advisor solutions vs. Leliana's espionage advisor solutions, Cassandra's warrior ways vs. political power-minded Vivienne's vs. pilfer sneakthief Sera's... etc.  It makes me seriously wonder how many more women need to be like Josephine or Liara or Aerie or Bethany in Inquisition before it's satisfactory.     

[Puppy Love]

Me, I want my character to be that way.  I like having high persuade and finding diplomatic solutions to situations.  I prefer manipulation over aggression.  I like having a character who fights when they have to, but recognize when a peaceful solution is attainable and seeks that solution over bloodshed.  I like wearing girly outfits, or outfits that express a feminine quality even if also designed to be functional in combat. 

 

Fortunately I can usually get half of that, a paragon or good person dialogue is usually available.  Feminine outfits, not so much.  Usually ugly versions of male outfits for which the only difference is more exposed skin.

[tirnoney]

Me, I want my character to be that way.  I like having high persuade and finding diplomatic solutions to situations.  I prefer manipulation over aggression.  I like having a character who fights when they have to, but recognize when a peaceful solution is attainable and seeks that solution over bloodshed.  I like wearing girly outfits, or outfits that express a feminine quality even if also designed to be functional in combat. 

 

Fortunately I can usually get half of that, a paragon or good person dialogue is usually available.  Feminine outfits, not so much.  Usually ugly versions of male outfits for which the only difference is more exposed skin.

 

Most of the random drop and purchasable mage gear in DA2 were effectively dresses.  Some I thought looked quite nice.  The fact that some of those dresses provided similar protection to plate armour was a bit of a stretch.  It's part of the chainmail bikini trope.  Supposedly bad-ass women in movies and games who wear impractical clothing, high heels and pristine make-up.  If that's the kind of trope you like to play out in games then you're in luck because it's pretty widespread.  Female NPCs who look like they really could handle themselves in a fight is much rarer.  

 

Having my character wearing dresses whilst entertaining guests at her mansion? Yes.  Wearing them into battle? No.

[Puppy Love]

Most of the random drop and purchasable mage gear in DA2 were effectively dresses.  Some I thought looked quite nice.  The fact that some of those dresses provided similar protection to plate armour was a bit of a stretch.  It's part of the chainmail bikini trope.  Supposedly bad-ass women in movies and games who wear impractical clothing, high heels and pristine make-up.  If that's the kind of trope you like to play out in games then you're in luck because it's pretty widespread.  Female NPCs who look like they really could handle themselves in a fight is much rarer.  

 

Having my character wearing dresses whilst entertaining guests at her mansion? Yes.  Wearing them into battle? No.

 

Something does not need to be impractical to be feminine, just not look like the hardened masculine versions.  Things can be decorated to be prettier.  I also never said anything about high heels, and the impractical line is WAY overused anyway.

[WildOrchid]

She always did strike me as kind of an anime stereotype (the sweet, shy, naïve girl next door with a crush). To me it didn't really make sense for her to be a battle companion and not just an advisor or crew member. She seemed incapable and somewhat cowardly as well as being inexperienced.

 

As a Liara fan I admit I would have liked Liara to have a role in the ship more than being a squadmate.

[tirnoney]

Something does not need to be impractical to be feminine, just not look like the hardened masculine versions.  Things can be decorated to be prettier.  I also never said anything about high heels, and the impractical line is WAY overused anyway.

 

I wasn't addressing the point solely at what you'd said.  And I agree with you that it is possible to be both attractive and practical.  I want that to be an option for people who consider it important.  I suppose I'm just advocating for those who like to play female warriors who are a reflection of female warriors within our own world.  They do exist, but they rarely get representation.  Do a google search for 'women marines'.  How many of them are perfectly coiffed? Or wearing make-up?  Or dressed in a way that stresses their femininity?

 

Can I just stress though that I would like the option to roleplay characters like that without in any way wanting to take away your option to roleplay the characters you like.

[Puppy Love]

I suppose I'm just advocating for those who like to play female warriors who are a reflection of female warriors within our own world.  They do exist, but they rarely get representation.  Do a google search for 'women marines'.  How many of them are perfectly coiffed? Or wearing make-up?  Or dressed in a way that stresses their femininity?

We're talking about uniforms in a regimented military where individuality is discouraged and uniformity of look and discipline is the standard all are held to, with punishment the result for breaking from that norm.  Is not the best example of how anyone dresses given a choice as an individual.  As for make up, I'm a firm believer of less is more.  I'm not a fan of excess make up anyway.  If you want to reflect a modern military feel, get rid of armor choices entirely and put everyone, male and female in the same outfit except in where a change is necessary due to role, or being a separate branch of the organization or rank. 

 

But I'm a firm believer in sharing, and like for all to get what they'll enjoy most with their personal avatar.

[tirnoney]

We're talking about uniforms in a regimented military where individuality is discouraged and uniformity of look and discipline is the standard all are held to, with punishment the result for breaking from that norm.  Is not the best example of how anyone dresses given a choice as an individual.  As for make up, I'm a firm believer of less is more.  I'm not a fan of excess make up anyway.  If you want to reflect a modern military feel, get rid of armor choices entirely and put everyone, male and female in the same outfit except in where a change is necessary due to role, or being a separate branch of the organization or rank. 

 

But I'm a firm believer in sharing, and like for all to get what they'll enjoy most with their personal avatar.

 

Well there isn't much call for warriors in our world outside the military.  It's hard to find examples anywhere else.  

 

Some of this is clearly about suspension of disbelief.  If I see a woman in a movie pulling karate moves in high heels I can't help but groan inwardly.  It's a bit like handicapping yourself before going into battle.  I'm not saying that's what you're advocating for, but you have to admit that kind of thing is very prevalent in movies and games.

 

Examples of the kind of female tropes I'd like to see more of are Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2, the woman with the bazooka in the third Matrix film or Vasquez in Aliens.  But I suppose they don't really appeal to the core demographic.

[GeminiParadox]

I think Leliana and Wynne fit that bill in Origins. Leliana was very feminine, sweet, charismatic, calm, kind, romantic and idealistic. Wynne was very tough love maternal, but calm, sincere, diplomatic counsel when it suited, a healer that literally looked after the wounded and tended to people. In DA2, Merrill was very cutesy and feminine, far from aggressive, innocent, very cerebral vs. combative, thoughtful. Bethany. And in Inquisition, we do have diplomat Josephine. These women are represented, they are part of the Dragon Age franchise, and it's puzzling to me how they're not enough or apparently do not "act like a woman" enough.

Oh, I definitely agree. I think Cassandra is the first woman in either ME or DA to have really short hair (and IMO short hair is awesome) and to be "aggressive". Aveline was a warrior but still diplomatic and fell in love. The women in DA are complicated and it isn't really fair to apply labels like masculine or feminine when they are not mere stereotypes.

I was just pointing out what it seemed the OP meant even though I'm quite happy with how female characters have been portrayed

[Seraphim24]

I think I see what OP is trying to say...

Other than Josephine, all of our DAI female characters come across as hardened. They are fighters, thieves, spies, and social climbers. I don't think most of us have an issue since we love seeing female characters portrayed in such diverse, interesting ways.

I think OP is asking for more female characters like Bethany: kind, calm, and diplomatic and not overly aggressive or hardened. I don't think a character like this would necessarily be submissive, weak, or cowardly. But the OP messed up by asking for "real ladies" and calling Cassandra and the other DAI women "basically men." I'd like more quiet, calm, polite, intellectual characters in general that can still fight well when the situation calls for it.

 

Bethany seemed all right, and I'm glad at least someone can basically see this kind of thing. My only problem is you say portrayed in such "diverse, interesting ways," my whole point is pretty much all the characters are fighters, thieves, spies, and social climbers, that's whats not very diverse about it. The DA:I characters (male and female) won't give you the time of day unless you are this mega aggressive mouth breather, it's just pretty lame. People complain about snark and yet that seems to be the only characters they want to be around, or at least acknowledge as good characters. Then they turn right around and voila, feminine or soft-er characters like Josephine, or attractive men like Cullen, or interesting women like Sera are the most popular characters.

 

I've been beating up on DA:I for a long time now, but really, it's in other games also, from Bioshock, to Planescape Torment, or other "hallowed" games for their "strong characters." It doesn't seem to affect sales though, for the most part, but western games are increasingly isolated in their world building, and at a certain point that tips into irrelevance.

 

I saw an interview with David Gaider and Ken Levine, and Ken Levine talked about how some people like you know... JRPGs in this kind of insulting way, and I'm like guy you make JRPGs. SS2 focused on a bunch of unique and diverse characters, like the machine mother, the Many, the Hacker, Delacroix, and you got to develop your character's personality with stats and so on. How is this any different from a Tales game? Exactly?

 

Also I never used the phrase "real ladies" or implied that any more quiet, calm, polite character necessarily would NOT fight well or whatever, as has frequently been implied. Personally though, I think it's more complicated than that, because then your in the trap of being biased about hybrid personalities, oh, you can only fight, or you can only be nice. The hound is pretty popular character from GoT I'd wager because even though he's one dimensional, he just seems like SO rough around the edges, he makes Iron Bull look like a puppy. Strength seems to be multidimensional, singular, hybrid, it takes many shapes.

[Seraphim24]

The OP has obviously shot their own argument in the foot but I think there is an issue here that's worth exploring. A lot of the characters in these games are quite hard and cold and nasty and other things I suppose you'd expect in someone trying to get by in Thedas during a war. But do they have to be that way? Bethany is an example of a kind, gentle character who could also fight and didn't railroad her own issues all over you every time you tried to speak to her.

I don't know what the characters in DA:I will be like, but I hope there will be one or two who aren't chewing my ear off about their ownpetty issues every time I talk to them regardless of their gender. Softness and femininity are two separate issues.

 

Gosh where were you people earlier in all this? I think that's also a fairly accurate summation, although I still don't think I shot anything exactly. It seems to me that perhaps I used too much of a buzzword about gender or femininity. A whole bunch of people misinterpreted me as some kind of woman hater. I'm being completely sincere when I say Sera is the most interesting character to me, but nope, everyone knew exactly what I was and I wasn't going to hear the end of it. Ultimately though, that says a lot more about them than me.

 

In fact, what that means is I probably I wouldn't be here if BW hadn't attempted anything at all, but all the same, when it feels so... fragile... I kind of just go well... is this really a compelling enough reason to actually jump in the game? I

 

This hyper-sensitivity to criticism due to already having faced a lot of criticism needs to go away, sure, it seems unfair, but what the heck, there's a lot of things that aren't fair. If I was some CoD troll that found my way in here because Sera just seemed so tomboy and I was going to call her a man because I hate her and blah blah I would of gone back to playing CoD by now, but as I already established I don't play any of those games at all anymore.

 

Anyway, this is about nice characters, nicer characters, anyway.

[MACharlie1]

I want a trailer for women.

 

Doing...y'know. Womanly things. Like cooking and cleaning. And serving her husband. And then some gossiping with their girlfriends and buying shoes....

[lisavamp]

I am 100% ok if my player is the only female, and I am just surrounded by men. More sausage to choose from :3

[coldflame]

 

...hyper-sensitivity...

 

Welcome to BSN, where its hyper-sensitivity is well known, even amongst forums from other sites.

[Steelcan]

Welcome to BSN, where its hyper-sensitivity is well known, even amongst forums from other sites.

BioWare Sociopath Network, and BioWare Social Justice Network

[coldflame]

BioWare Sociopath Network, and BioWare Social Justice Network

BioWare's Sonwflakes Network

[Chiramu]

OP, perhaps change the title of this thread, "female" to "Feminine". It still is a little confusing.

[dekarserverbot]

Stopped reading here, bad argument is bad.

I guess Kefka (who used to be the classic cliche effiminate vilian in the Final Fantasy equivalent of Dragon Age Origins) wants to play Dead or Alive instead.

 

 

Why can't I put my hair up, and decorate my armor with more delicate patterns and colors and still kick butt?

Wade approves (+50)

[Seraphim24]

I guess Kefka (who used to be the classic cliche effiminate vilian in the Final Fantasy equivalent of Dragon Age Origins) wants to play Dead or Alive instead.

 

<big gif>

 

I was kind of done commenting, especially for the pointless ones by people not reading anything, but I find it endlessly amusing when people bring up not only something I didn't ask for but something I've literally never seen before in my entire life, like that previous gif of all those women, from a game I've never played. Dead or Alive, AND Cartoon Network, two at once.

 

Edit: It looks like the picture changed, well whatever.

[Muspade]

I saw an interview with David Gaider and Ken Levine, and Ken Levine talked about how some people like you know... JRPGs in this kind of insulting way, and I'm like guy you make JRPGs. 

Ken Levine doesn't make Japanese RPG's, no. It's like going over the boarder and saying "Legend Of Korra" is an anime.
 

Bethany seemed all right, and I'm glad at least someone can basically see this kind of thing. My only problem is you say portrayed in such "diverse, interesting ways," my whole point is pretty much all the characters are fighters, thieves, spies, and social climbers, that's whats not very diverse about it. The DA:I characters (male and female) won't give you the time of day unless you are this mega aggressive mouth breather, it's just pretty lame. People complain about snark and yet that seems to be the only characters they want to be around, or at least acknowledge as good characters. Then they turn right around and voila, feminine or soft-er characters like Josephine, or attractive men like Cullen, or interesting women like Sera are the most popular characters. So it's like umm? Hypocrisy much?

No hypocrisy in saying your romance option is a sweet girl. You don't need to personally like a characters look or sound to consider one a good character despite your own preference. Naturally your party would need to consist of these fighters (Not necessarily social climbers. That's a first) to be able to fight anything with your damn party, so them being rough around the edges shouldn't be damn surprising.

Also, I don't believe you have any clue what you're talking about when mentioning you have to be a "Mouth breather" when NO ONE has played the game yet.

[Seraphim24]

Ken Levine doesn't make Japanese RPG's, no. It's like going over the boarder and saying "Legend Of Korra" is an anime

 

Well if you want to be MR LITERAL then of course he doesn't make JRPGs, I can see my analogy failed in at least one instance.

 

No hypocrisy in saying your romance option is a sweet girl. You don't need to personally like a characters look or sound to consider one a good character despite your own preference. Naturally your party would need to consist of these fighters (Not necessarily social climbers. That's a first) to be able to fight anything with your damn party, so them being rough around the edges shouldn't be damn surprising.

Also, I don't believe you have any clue what you're talking about when mentioning you have to be a "Mouth breather" when NO ONE has played the game yet.

 

I can't understand what you said here exactly. I never said I disliked them, actually, if I was making a party for instance it would probably be Sera, Solas, Cassandra, or something like that. I don't need to personally "like" them? Well what am I supposed to them then? Not like them? The hell?

[dekarserverbot]

I was kind of done commenting, especially for the pointless ones by people not reading anything, but I find it endlessly amusing when people bring up not only something I didn't ask for but something I've literally never seen before in my entire life, like that previous gif of all those women, from a game I've never played. Dead or Alive, AND Cartoon Network, well I can safely assume you are around 6 now, perhaps why you struggled with reading comprehension.

 

Edit: It looks like the picture changed, well whatever.

 

yes, it was too big and i considered it nasty so i changed it for a smaller one based on the same character and about the 6 year old comment then everyone who posted their pov's against your sexist comments is also 5 or 6, oh great mr adult, can you enlight us?

 

Yeah, I would say he's basically a woman.

 

For me a guy who is basically a woman is someone who values science and knowledge over muscle, does this makes more sense? Every guy who trains more his brain than his body is a girl with a penis not a man