550 réponses à ce sujet

[tirnoney]

Literally the first thing on the wiki for Vivienne

“For those who value survival, sentimentality is not an option."

It doesn't exactly scream "oh lets have fun together! =)"

Cassandra is more ambiguous

I'm not interested in stories. I came to hear the truth.

Hm, ok, so the first thing out of her mouth isn't IM TOUGH, it's like, yes I'm somewhat impatient perhaps, but I'm curious about this or that.

You seem to be stuck on the hard=man soft=woman idea. Time to let go of it. Women can be hard and men can be soft. If you want softer characters then say that, don't make it about gender.

[Gregolian]

You seem to be stuck on the hard=man soft=woman idea. Time to let go of it. Women can be hard and men can be soft. If you want softer characters then say that, don't make it about gender.

 

And I am scared to death of getting my ass kicked by her if I ever had to train with her in a gym.  And I am a 6'3" HW.

[Seraphim24]

 If you want softer characters then say that, don't make it about gender.

 

Um, that's what I did? That was in the OP, Vivienne, Sera, Cassandra are all kind of rough around the edges and I was hoping for more feminine characters. If anything, I could of just added that it could be masculine characters also that could be more feminine.

 

It just seemed logical to add the feminine characters as actual females to remedy the pure imbalance physically. /shrug

[PhroXenGold]

Um, that's what I did? That was in the OP, Vivienne, Sera, Cassandra are all kind of rough around the edges and I was hoping for more feminine characters. If anything, I could of just added that it could be masculine characters also that could be more feminine.

 

It just seemed logical to add the feminine characters as actual females to remedy the pure imbalance physically. /shrug

 

The problem is that, whether you realise it or not, your definition of "feminine" is inherently discriminatory and sexist. By saying that those characters aren't "feminine", you are implying that women should always be soft and meek, and that women who try to be different are wrong. Similarly, by associating traits like strength, argumentativeness and so on with "masculinity", you are imply that only men should be like that, that there is swomething wrong with any woman who has those traits or any man that doesn't.

 

And yes, I know historically this kind of association has been widespread. That doesn't make it a good thing.

[WildOrchid]

Um, that's what I did? That was in the OP, Vivienne, Sera, Cassandra are all kind of rough around the edges and I was hoping for more feminine characters. If anything, I could of just added that it could be masculine characters also that could be more feminine.

 

It just seemed logical to add the feminine characters as actual females to remedy the pure imbalance physically. /shrug

 

Did you forget Josephine Montilyet again?

She may not be a companion but she has the same amount of romance content like the others. You actually won't miss anything.

[HTTP 404]

I actually never noticed the composition of the group between the sexes until this thread.   Funny.  When playing Da2, I noticed that I would have 3 female companions with me (I always play male) many times and had a Charlie's Angels thought.  My male 2h warrior would tend to choose Aveline, Merril, and Isabela for party balance and I actually enjoy a lot of the banter they bring. 

 

I am all for inclusivity in video games but not at the cost of story and/or character.  With that said, I hope that Bioware seizes (not forces) opportunities to make more diverse games.

[Mihura]

Um, that's what I did? That was in the OP, Vivienne, Sera, Cassandra are all kind of rough around the edges and I was hoping for more feminine characters. If anything, I could of just added that it could be masculine characters also that could be more feminine.

 

It just seemed logical to add the feminine characters as actual females to remedy the pure imbalance physically. /shrug

 

Are you trying to insult women? I really cannot tell if you are joking or not.

[teenparty]

Um, that's what I did? That was in the OP, Vivienne, Sera, Cassandra are all kind of rough around the edges and I was hoping for more feminine characters. If anything, I could of just added that it could be masculine characters also that could be more feminine.

 

It just seemed logical to add the feminine characters as actual females to remedy the pure imbalance physically. /shrug

Feminine really just means anything associated with females. It's a completely relative term, dependent on context. If females like to fight, drink and shag then those things must be defined as feminine.

 

The women where you live must be boring.

[tirnoney]

Um, that's what I did? That was in the OP, Vivienne, Sera, Cassandra are all kind of rough around the edges and I was hoping for more feminine characters. If anything, I could of just added that it could be masculine characters also that could be more feminine.

 

It just seemed logical to add the feminine characters as actual females to remedy the pure imbalance physically. /shrug

I'm still not sure I understand what you're asking for because as a certain Salarian scientist would put it, your choice of language is problematic.

 

If Iron Bull spends his downtime between battles admiring his butterfly collection and picking flowers would that be a good or a bad thing from your perspective? (Aveline: "If I see a Qunari admiring butterflies Merrill, you'll be the first person I tell.")

 

It might seem logical to put stereotypically feminine traits in female characters but since most mass media already does that, wouldn't it be more interesting to do the reverse?

 

If only there were better words than masculine and feminine.  But the important thing to note, and the biggest problem with the OP is that a person is not defined as a man or a woman based on how many 'masculine' or 'feminine' traits they exhibit.

[Seraphim24]

What is so complicated about the notion of a mannish woman or feminine man? Are you people really that unfamiliar with these concepts? I'm not here to create from the ground up the perfectly non-offensive PC way of describing femininity or masculinity, I"m just trying to get some ideas across. I'm sure in 2050 when we simply assign people gender neutral numbers to describe their personality this won't be an issue.

 

I'm still not sure I understand what you're asking for because as a certain Salarian scientist would put it, your choice of language is problematic.

 

If Iron Bull spends his downtime between battles admiring his butterfly collection and picking flowers would that be a good or a bad thing from your perspective? (Aveline: "If I see a Qunari admiring butterflies Merrill, you'll be the first person I tell.")

 

It might seem logical to put stereotypically feminine traits in female characters but since most mass media already does that, wouldn't it be more interesting to do the reverse?

 

Yeah, that would be a good thing for Iron Bull. He's got the big axe but this crazy soft side? Hrm, interesting.

 

To me, several of the Bioware characters are male stereotypes (Blackwall, Iron Bull, Varric), that are often seen in the mass media, so it's odd they don't have any counter-balancing stereotypically feminine sort of characters. All the characters are pretty aggressive, none of them are necessarily very nice.

[mopotter]

That's the problem he has though, women with power or skill or ambition=men. I'm guessing he wants demure princess type characters with long flowing hair and dresses. Non combatants of course who will blush when they see the male Inquisitor and then scurry off to bake him a pie and pine over him. Also she should be kidnapped often and need to be rescued by the male Inquisitor. This is how a woman SHOULD be! None of that "being a leader" or "being a skilled fighter" or "having short hair" business!

 This makes me think of Aerie from Baldur's gate.  caring, needy, naive.

 

Was going to put in my two cents, but everyone has already said it.   

[PhroXenGold]

What is so complicated about the notion of a mannish woman or feminine man? Are you people really that unfamiliar with these concepts? I'm not here to create from the ground up the perfectly non-offensive PC way of describing femininity or masculinity, I"m just trying to get some ideas across. I'm sure in 2050 when we simply assign people gender neutral numbers to describe their personality this won't be an issue.

 

 

Yeah, that would be a good thing for Iron Bull. He's got the big axe but this crazy soft side? Hrm, interesting.

 

To me, several of the Bioware characters are male stereotypes (Blackwall, Iron Bull, Varric), that are often seen in the mass media, so it's odd they don't have any counter-balancing stereotypically feminine characters. They're putting stereotypically masculine characteristics into women and stereotypically masculine characters into men. Sterotypically feminine characteristics appear underutilized in this model.

 

Stereotype.

 

Personally, my issues are with the way you present things, not neccesarily what you're asking for. A female character who is softer, less assertive, more submissive is not neccesarily a bad thing. There are indeed some women like that. (Of course, there are also plenty of men like that). Saying those are "feminine" traits, saying that that is how women should be (which is what describing them as feminine is effectively doing) is, on the other hand, deeply negative and frankly downright offensive to half the population of the Earth.

[SardaukarElite]

 

To me, several of the Bioware characters are male stereotypes (Blackwall, Iron Bull, Varric), that are often seen in the mass media, so it's odd they don't have any counter-balancing stereotypically feminine characters. They're putting stereotypically masculine characteristics into women and stereotypically masculine characters into men. Sterotypically feminine characteristics appear underutilized in this model.

 

Stereotype.

 

You keep using that word...

 

There is more to being Stereotypically Feminine than just being gentle, there's a whole heap of traits bundled up in there. A common female character is the Lady Macbeth, who is manipulative and ambitious - sound familiar? To basically everyone Viv is overtly feminine, stereotypically feminine even, though hopefully good writing will let her rise above that.

 

What you want isn't stereotypically feminine, it is far more specific than that - so when you say Viv isn't feminine most people get confused. Though I'm not sure what you want, and I'm  not convinced you're sure what you want.

[Nefla]

Personally, my issues are with the way you present things, not neccesarily what you're asking for. A female character who is softer, less assertive, more submissive is not neccesarily a bad thing. There are indeed some women like that. (Of course, there are also plenty of men like that). Saying those are "feminine" traits, saying that that is how women should be (which is what describing them as feminine is effectively doing) is, on the other hand, deeply negative and frankly downright offensive to half the population of the Earth.

I get the impression that the OP has never talked to or spent time with a real woman in real life. He seems to be basing what a woman "MUST BE!!!111!!!1!" on fantasy. Anime, JRPGs, etc...

[PhroXenGold]

I get the impression that the OP has never talked to or spent time with a real woman in real life. He seems to be basing what a woman "MUST BE!!!111!!!1!" on fantasy. Anime, JRPGs, etc...

 

I dunno. I wouldn't say it's a particularly Japanese or fanatsy view of women. It was pretty popular in the west back in the 1950s and earlier.

[Nefla]

I dunno. I wouldn't say it's a particularly Japanese or fanatsy view of women. It was pretty popular in the west back in the 1950s and earlier.

True, but it's no longer a thing here. It is however still a thing in Asian fantasy.

[tirnoney]

What is so complicated about the notion of a mannish woman or feminine man? Are you people really that unfamiliar with these concepts? I'm not here to create from the ground up the perfectly non-offensive PC way of describing femininity or masculinity, I"m just trying to get some ideas across. I'm sure in 2050 when we simply assign people gender neutral numbers to describe their personality this won't be an issue.

 

 

Yeah, that would be a good thing for Iron Bull. He's got the big axe but this crazy soft side? Hrm, interesting.

 

To me, several of the Bioware characters are male stereotypes (Blackwall, Iron Bull, Varric), that are often seen in the mass media, so it's odd they don't have any counter-balancing stereotypically feminine characters. They're putting stereotypically masculine characteristics into women and stereotypically masculine characters into men. Sterotypically feminine characteristics appear underutilized in this model.

 

Stereotype.

 

There's a middle ground between ultra PC and saying someone like Vivienne is 'basically a man'.  All I was trying to figure out was if your views and your choice of language coincided with each other.  From what you've said subsequently, it would appear they don't.  

 

I agree with you that using stereotyped characters is getting tired and old, but each stereotype is not on an equal footing with another.  Society views the feminine stereotype differently than then masculine stereotype.  If you put a stereotyped ethnic minority character in a game, lots of people will notice and complain.  A stereotyped white male football player might be boring, but it's unlikely to illicit the same response.  Most of us enter the game world with issues from the real world.  It's nice when the game world deviates from our expectations in that regard when it's in a positive direction.  So yes, I'd like to see more bearded male warriors doing a little knitting in their off hours.  But the issue of stereotyped femininity in women may share similarities with stereotyped masculinity in men, but those issues are not on an equal footing in the real world.

[dekarserverbot]

 

It might seem logical to put stereotypically feminine traits in female characters but since most mass media already does that, wouldn't it be more interesting to do the reverse?
 

Put them in reverse has also been done too much, sometimes i feel more identified with a female lead role than a male one (i.e: Recess Spinelly). The same trouble that Marvel comics has is to trying to approach certain individuals by crafting heroes with certain characteristics (Grumpy Dwarf Wolverine, Coloured Batman Black Panther, Gay Russian Zangief like character Colossus) dealing that those individuals usually identify with characters that are not "like them" (an afro american even said that he felt more identified with Spiderman than with Black Panther, and i have a buffy gay friend who feels more identified with Dr Strange than Colossus, and finally I have a big size friend who feels more identified with deadpool than Thing) just because these characters have some traits that they share in common, more than just the race/gender/ethnics/etc.

[Medhia_Nox]

Why would I ever want a "soft, less assertive, super empathetic" person fighting along side me apologizing every five minutes for hitting Mr. Darkspawn with a hammer? 

Seriously - gentle people belong home being gentle - and I want to be EXTREMELY clear that I'm saying people.

 

This is pretty much the entire premise of The Lord of the Rings.  Simple folks who live quiet, gentle lives (Hobbits) don't belong in epics - and when they're thrust into them - they're changed forever (and not necessarily for the better.) 

 

And I agree entirely with the quote:  "It is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life." 

 

Inquistor:  We have to fight through those Venatori - poor the boiling oil down upon the Templars besieging the gates - and then you need to hold that man's insides together until Solas can get here to heal him.

 

Gentle Character:  *frozen in fear - gets everyone killed* 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I get the impression that the OP has never talked to or spent time with a real woman in real life. He seems to be basing what a woman "MUST BE!!!111!!!1!" on fantasy. Anime, JRPGs, etc...

We clearly watch different animes and play different JRPGs if you think that the only women they promote are what the OP is asking for. 

[Nefla]

We clearly watch different animes and play different JRPGs if you think that the only women they promote are what the OP is asking for.

Sure, there are a few different moulds for female anime and JRPG characters but none of them are anything I'd want to see in Dragon Age. When I used to watch anime and play JRPGs I could never find any female characters to cosplay who were as cool or interesting as their male counterparts. They may have different traits, but are ultimately weaker either physically or psychologically than the male characters in the same story. Even the spunky/aggressive/hot headed girls who always yell at the protagonist and beat on them in a comedic way end up ultimately deferring to the male characters, being rescued by them, etc...the more powerful in combat a female anime character is, the less clothes she seems to wear. As if the creators are put off by the idea and need to "balance it out" by putting her in a battle bikini.

[Star fury]

I fail to see how inserting more female or "feminine" characters makes a better game.

[coldflame]

Why would I ever want a "soft, less assertive, super empathetic" person fighting along side me apologizing every five minutes for hitting Mr. Darkspawn with a hammer? 

Seriously - gentle people belong home being gentle - and I want to be EXTREMELY clear that I'm saying people.

 

This is pretty much the entire premise of The Lord of the Rings.  Simple folks who live quiet, gentle lives (Hobbits) don't belong in epics - and when they're thrust into them - they're changed forever (and not necessarily for the better.) 

 

And I agree entirely with the quote:  "It is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life." 

 

Inquistor:  We have to fight through those Venatori - poor the boiling oil down upon the Templars besieging the gates - and then you need to hold that man's insides together until Solas can get here to heal him.

 

Gentle Character:  *frozen in fear - gets everyone killed* 

 

I think you missed the whole point of the Lord of the Rings. You either didn't watch/read it in its entirety or you didn't get the point. In the Lord of the Rings, only the Hobbits, what you would call "home belonging gentle people" could resist the temptation of Sauron's ring. Even Gandolf thinks he won't be able to resist it if he had held it. Therefore, in the whole trilogy these "gentle people" became an essential part of the group if not the most important. Do they belong to the homes? Maybe. Do they have their uses in the party? The answer is an absolutly YES. People have different roles in a party. Just because they are not the most fearsome warriors out there, that doesn't mean they do not contribute to the team/party they currently belong to.

 

Originally, when J. R. R. Tolkien wrote TLOTR, he wrote it in a way to encourage young people to read. He used characters like Frodo and Sam to inspire young people, and to show that even though you think you are small and unassuming, if you have a good heart and is willing to help those in need you could still make a tremendous difference on the world for better.

 

What I am trying to say is (if you are still reading), TLOTR is a bad example to use to put your point across.

[The Hierophant]

Sure, there are a few different moulds for female anime and JRPG characters but none of them are anything I'd want to see in Dragon Age. When I used to watch anime and play JRPGs I could never find any female characters to cosplay who were as cool or interesting as their male counterparts. They may have different traits, but are ultimately weaker either physically or psychologically than the male characters in the same story. Even the spunky/aggressive/hot headed girls who always yell at the protagonist and beat on them in a comedic way end up ultimately deferring to the male characters, being rescued by them, etc...the more powerful in combat a female anime character is, the less clothes she seems to wear. As if the creators are put off by the idea and need to "balance it out" by putting her in a battle bikini.

Kallen is partially right though. Even though there's a sh!t ton of fanservice and objectification in male oriented manga/anime series, subversions also exist in series like Appleseed, Miyazaki's works, Battle Angel Alita, Claymore, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Full Metal Alchemist, Air Master, Slayers, Gundam and Sailor Moon (don't let the uniforms fool you).

Then there's the female oriented manga, the Shojo genre whose quality is all over the place. (ymmv though)

but c'mon cosplay as Lina Inverse or Teresa/Miria are from Claymore. They cool. Seriously, they are.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Kallen is partially right though. Even though there's a sh!t ton of fanservice and objectification in male oriented manga/anime series, subversions also exist in series like Appleseed, Miyazaki's works, Battle Angel Alita, Claymore, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Full Metal Alchemist, Air Master, Slayers, Gundam and Sailor Moon (don't let the uniforms fool you).

Then there's the female oriented manga, the Shojo genre whose quality is all over the place. (ymmv though)

but c'mon cosplay as Lina Inverse or Teresa/Miria are from Claymore. They cool. Seriously, they are.

Exactly. I will never deny that there is anime and JRPG series that are nothing but fanservice for men or women, but there is a lot more types than that that are a lot better at things like representation.