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[Reidbynature]

Lawful oppressive, methinks.

[Mistic]

mmm I've been wondering if the Qun is an analogy to any system in our own world...
Fascist?
Communist?
they most definitely are a Theocracy but so is all of thedas...

 

No. In fact, no country so far in Thedas is a theocracy. According to the Oxford dictionary, a theocracy is a "system of government by priests or a priestly class in which the laws of the State are believed to be the laws of God."

 

The Qunari don't believe in any gods, so they don't say that their laws come from a divine or supernatural authority. And what we could call their priesthood is just one head in a triumvirate (although it could be argued that they may be the most influential).

[Panda]

I doubt many societys that we see as evil now have described themselves and their actions as such. Colonization was made in name of greater good, so was crusades etc.

 

Qunari society has many actions that we would see evil so they are evil in that sense. Lobotomy, lack of freedom, colonization and treatment that mages receive (which is much worse than mages get from templars and Chantry), those are pretty evil things.

 

Is there really enough good to justify those evil actions? I don't think so. In my point of view Qun does more bad than good and so you could say that Qun is lawful evil.

[DuskWanderer]

I doubt many societys that we see as evil now have described themselves and their actions as such. Colonization was made in name of greater good, so was crusades etc.

 

Qunari society has many actions that we would see evil so they are evil in that sense. Lobotomy, lack of freedom, colonization and treatment that mages receive (which is much worse than mages get from templars and Chantry), those are pretty evil things.

 

Is there really enough good to justify those evil actions? I don't think so. In my point of view Qun does more bad than good and so you could say that Qun is lawful evil.

 

As a man who's worked closely with police, I can tell you few people see themselves as evil. Most justify themselves morally (as the Qun does). Of course, most of those justifications are flimsy, at best. While there are no deities in the Qun, Cassandra is correct to identify it as a religion.

[Ianamus]

I don't think It's evil.

 

It's a similar thing to the whole mage debate: I don't view reducing somebody's freedom as inherently evil. It depends on why that person is reducing somebody elses freedom, and how well you treat said person.

 

While Orlesian/Ferelden/Nevarran society allows more more freedom and is less "evil" at a concept level, individuals have the ability to be incredibly evil and often are, treating people less powerful than them like rusbbish.

 

The Qun, while restrictive and arguably more "evil" as an institution does not really allow for individuals to be evil beyond what the society officially allows. The Qun dictates that you have to treat everyone with respect for their role in society, so a lot of the individual evil present in other societies would not exist.

[DuskWanderer]

I don't think It's evil.

 

It's a similar thing to the whole mage debate: I don't view reducing somebody's freedom as inherently evil. It depends on why that person is reducing somebody elses freedom, and how well you treat said person.

 

While Orlesian/Ferelden/Nevarran society allows more more freedom and is less "evil" at a concept level, individuals have the ability to be incredibly evil and often are, treating people less powerful than them like rusbbish.

 

The Qun, while restrictive and arguably more "evil" as an institution does not really allow for individuals to be evil beyond what the society officially allows. The Qun dictates that you have to treat everyone with respect for their role in society, so a lot of the individual evil present in other societies would not exist.

 

Except that they don't. You have to serve in the matter the superiors dictate, and on pain of death, according to Fenris. 

[JBONE271983_Tacolover]

mmm I've been wondering if the Qun is an analogy to any system in our own world...
Fascist?
Communist?
they most definitely are a Theocracy but so is all of thedas...

If they're a theocracy, then they cannot be communist.  Also, I'm not sure if all of Thedas is theocratic.  I'm pretty sure that Ferelden is a semi-religious feudalistic society.  We haven't seen most of the city states of the Free Marches, and Trivinter is a magocracy (sp?) with seemingly little religious bend.

[JBONE271983_Tacolover]

I would say that the Qun is lawful neutral.

[Navasha]

I just read over the descriptions of lawful neutral and lawful evil again and the Qunari society is probably best described as lawful neutral, but with very evil tendencies.    They would fit lawful neutral (tyrannical) very well, except for their desire to impose their philosophy, zealotry, dominate others, disregard for innocents, etc are clearly in the lawful evil realm. 

 

I would say the Qunari people are Lawful neutral, following their laws without regard for how good or evil they may be, while the Qun society as a whole lies squarely in the Lawful Evil domain as its laws are designed to serve the Qun and only the Qun and is more than willing to commit any atrocity that furthers its goals and beliefs.

[leaguer of one]

No. It's lawfully neutral.

[Eternal Phoenix]

I doubt many societys that we see as evil now have described themselves and their actions as such. Colonization was made in name of greater good, so was crusades etc.

 

Qunari society has many actions that we would see evil so they are evil in that sense. Lobotomy, lack of freedom, colonization and treatment that mages receive (which is much worse than mages get from templars and Chantry), those are pretty evil things.

 

Is there really enough good to justify those evil actions? I don't think so. In my point of view Qun does more bad than good and so you could say that Qun is lawful evil.

 

Colonization isn't evil. You're confusing it with conquest. The American settlers were okay until they started killing people and taking slaves. The natives and settlers got along at one point.

[calvinien]

That part where they lobotomize people is rather evil. As is signing a treaty that you never intend to honor, so you have time to properly build up your army and conquer everyone.

If they don't intend to honour the treaty how are they lawful?

[Panda]

Colonization isn't evil. You're confusing it with conquest. The American settlers were okay until they started killing people and taking slaves. The natives and settlers got along at one point.

 

Well maybe imperialism would be better term to use It and colonization has usually turned out being pretty bad things so that's why I see them as evil.

[AshesEleven]

It's pretty difficult to classify the Qun itself as anything but neutral.  It's a system of living, much like our own.  There are good parts, there are bad parts.  Saying it's evil is a little ridiculous.  Was Sten evil?  The Qun is far more complex than we give it credit for, I think.  

[Mirrman70]

I personally think that all of Thedas can be considered evil in the ways you are posting (everyone shits on mages except tevinter which is opposite land, the majority **** on elves, and the Chantry has a "with us or against us" outlook)

 

I think the DnD 3x3 grid cannot apply in this situation because of how alien their society is to us. I mean most of us live in countries where true socialism and true communism are shunned (those are the closest concepts I can compare to the Qun).

 

I would use the Sci-Fi term of Dystopian instead.

[leaguer of one]

I personally think that all of Thedas can be considered evil in the ways you are posting (everyone shits on mages except tevinter which is opposite land, the majority **** on elves, and the Chantry has a "with us or against us" outlook)

 

I think the DnD 3x3 grid cannot apply in this situation because of how alien their society is to us. I mean most of us live in countries where true socialism and true communism are shunned (those are the closest concepts I can compare to the Qun).

 

I would use the Sci-Fi term of Dystopian instead.

Obligatory.

 

Also , have you ever seen this really mature anime called Pycho pass?

[Steelcan]

its true neutral, nothing but utility

[Feybrad]

The Qun is Lawful Neutral.

Their Motivation is Order and Efficiency and they are largely succesful, with arguably the best functioning and progressive societal Structure of Thedas.

They employ various Methods that are often questionable and would be evil if done out of self-serving Interests, but these are not there.

 

The Qun is certainly not lawful good, but to call it evil - I think this would be going too far. It lacks malevolent Interests.

However - if we only argue from our modern Viewpoint (note that even in modern Societies all the Questions about the Topics the Qun chooses to eliminate with a rather questionable Option are not solved in a sufficiently "good" Way) then the Qun tends to appear more evil than for the oppresed and persepectiveless thedosian Peasant (especially if elvhen).

[KainD]

 
People and their motivations are more complex than a 3x3 grid can possibly allow.

Not really, every grid is just complex. You can find very different people in the sane grid, but you can still put anyone into a grid.

[daveliam]

Yeah, put me in the group that thinks that the Qun represents a Lawful Neutral alignment, as close as it can be applied in this context. 

 

Here are the descriptions of Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil from Wizards of the Coast (via Wikipedia):

 

A Lawful Neutral character typically believes strongly in Lawful concepts such as honor, order, rules and tradition, and often follows a personal code. A Lawful Neutral society would typically enforce strict laws to maintain social order, and place a high value on traditions and historical precedent. Examples of Lawful Neutral characters might include a soldier who always follows orders, a judge or enforcer that adheres mercilessly to the word of the law, and a disciplined monk.  Characters of this alignment are neutral with regard to good and evil. This does not mean that Lawful Neutral characters are amoral or immoral, or do not have a moral compass, but simply that their moral considerations come a distant second to what their code, tradition, or law dictates. They typically have a strong ethical code, but it is primarily guided by their system of belief, not by a commitment to good or evil.

 

A Lawful Evil character sees a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and shows a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor. Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct, and loyal soldiers who enjoy the act of killing.  Like Lawful Good Paladins, Lawful Evil characters may sometimes find themselves faced with the dilemma of whether to obey law or evil when the two conflict. However, their issues with Law versus Evil are more concerned with "Will I get caught?" versus "How does this benefit me?"

 

To me, the Qunari sound much more like the first than the second.  The Lawful Evil description places an emphasis on exploitation and manipulation that the Qunari just don't demonstrate.

[Maria Caliban]

I'm not going to dive into the thread proper, but I'd like to point out that this part is pretty darn offensive to a lot of people who do not share the same political opinions as you.

Agreed.
 

It's pretty difficult to classify the Qun itself as anything but neutral. It's a system of living, much like our own. There are good parts, there are bad parts. Saying it's evil is a little ridiculous. Was Sten evil? The Qun is far more complex than we give it credit for, I think.

We're not classifying the Qun (which we have no access to) but the people who follow it.

There's a difference between a philosophy and a government or culture.

That's not very nice

I also inform children there is no Santa Claus.

[Willowhugger]

I think Dragon Age tends to forgo such simplistic classifications.

 

On a literal level, the Qun is an extremist example of Lawful Neutral rather than Lawful Evil because the latter requires sadism or personal ambition, of which the Qun has neither.

 

On a metaphorical level, the Qun is an oppressive totalitarian (classically totalitarian too) quasi-religious philosophy that attempts to break down the family system and eliminate all freedom in exchange for the good of the state. It's pretty much Soviet communism writ large, except the Soviets didn't go nearly as far as the Qunari have.

[Steelcan]

I think Dragon Age tends to forgo such simplistic classifications.

And I'd say it falls into such classifications rather easily

[Willowhugger]

Sure, whatever dude.

 

Overall, I think the Qun is a philosophy which would appeal to folk like Carver. It's a place where you have a purpose and that purpose is honored. You wake up every morning with the knowledge you have job security and that you're doing something worthwhile with your life. Better still, no one is more important than anyone else. There's also no poverty and there's no racism or specism either.

 

It's a Utopia to most City Elves.

 

To someone like Isabela or Anders, it'd be Hell on Earth.

 

Fenris is probably somewhere in-between.