157 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

If sexual dimorphism in qunari is similar to that in humans (males are typically stronger than females), then men need to be assigned to do physical labor and military jobs in order for society to function at maximum efficiency. With most/all of the men doing those jobs, women fill in the rest.

Strength is not the only thing important in labor and war, individual skill is far more important and some women are better than some men. The Qun fails to see individual strengths and weaknesses.

People are judged solely by their gender and forced into set societal roles, that is ridiculous.

[NextArishok]

Strength is not the only thing important in labor and war, individual skill is far more important and some women are better than some men. The Qun fails to see individual strengths and weaknesses.

People are judged solely by their gender and forced into set societal roles, that is ridiculous.

 

Not true.   While it is rare.....reguardless of sex, if a Qunari shows extreme ability to perform a task even if it is considered not a task for their gender they will be placed in it. Besides that the task you are given is based on your strengths and weaknesses.  If you can best serve the people in a certain area that is where you will be placed.

 

The idea that a male is generally better at physical things is just how it is and that is why certain roles are filled by certain sexes.

 

Aside from the fact that the Arishok will never be anything but a male and the Arigena will never be anything other than a female.

[Lavaeolus]

People are judged solely by their gender and forced into set societal roles, that is ridiculous.

While the Qun does dictate certain jobs to be male/female-only, they're not judged solely on that basis. It certainly is a bit sexist, but keep in mind this is also a group that monitors breeding and so on, and people are observed as children to see what role they'd be best suited for (e.g. a soldier or if they prove an intellectual a researcher). Which doesn't exactly endear themselves to us, admittedly, but note that those men that are worse then women? They won't be assigned to such labour.

 

I can't comment quite on the effectiveness without knowing more about Qunari roles, information I will likely not get since they are on the whole fictional. Still, I imagine stronger women have a place in the Ben-Hassrath, or something along those lines.

[Former_Fiend]

I don't count the qun's "sexism" against it in terms of whether or not the society is evil. Do I like that particular aspect of Qunari society? No. It's definitely not "good", but if we're using the D&D chart here, there is middle ground.

 

Anyway, in a lawful evil sexist society, those delegated to a laborer position would be looked down upon and seen as inferior. In the Qun, they are not. Warriors aren't seen as any more important to the whole of the society than the shop keepers or the priests or those that work the field. 

[Gabdube]

More chaotically evil. It's a society the the ruling class is made up of the strongest which promote  having their ruling class and leader ship fight each other in duels and seek to becoming more powerful. That's the drow society in a nut shell.

That description could also fit many feudal societies, along with semi-fascistic ones or even some ancient greek city-states...

[tmp7704]

Tevintor and Orlias say hi.

Tevinter is indeed one country that demonstrated both willingness and ability to conquer pretty much all of Thedas. And yes, it's viewed as "evil" for rather obvious reasons. Orlais, not so much -- they side with and help their neighbors as often as they fight them. Between that and the fact Thedas has quite a few more countries than these two it doesn't imo demonstrate that 'the whole world is just as bad as the qunari' when it comes to subjugation of others.

[SerCambria358]

It's stupid to think that such a thing can actually exist, can actually work. It's utterly idealistic and ignores the anarchic, narcissistic nature of man. Much like communism.

 

It's based on a flawed view of mankind. Or qunarikind. Whatever. I'm saying that that "fully functional society" is not possible, and only naivety thinks it is.

1.) It does work, while not perfectly, it does no doubt work.

 

2.) Denying that it works is denying everything that the Qunari have been able to accomplish

 

3.) The idea that anarchy, narcissism, and chaos are part of "human" nature, is just that, an idea. It is not fact in reality (though that can be argued) let alone in Thedas, so calling their philosophy flawed based on a theory, isnt legitimate. Especially considering that their society is very successful

 

So again, this notion that its "Stupid", really seems to be one out of spite.

[Gabdube]

It's stupid to think that such a thing can actually exist, can actually work. It's utterly idealistic and ignores the anarchic, narcissistic nature of man. Much like communism.

 

It's based on a flawed view of mankind. Or qunarikind. Whatever. I'm saying that that "fully functional society" is not possible, and only naivety thinks it is.

And how exactly do you think you can prove that human nature is as your think it is? Generations of philosophers have tried. It didn't turn out well. (although, it can be argued that the proofs backing the polar opposite opinion, that humans are inherently benevolent and caring, are also extremely hard to maintain)

I mean, free-market capitalism simply wouldn't work either if men were inherently selfish. The whole thing about mutual profit and socio-economic growth wouldn't be thinkable if humans were inherently like that. Otherwise, trade and profit would merely be a form of legalized theft.

Also, this view disregards the historical fact that supported the invention of society and trade: your chances of survival are much higher as a group; if you have other people watching your back, and if you watch their backs in return.

There is even a prominent theory in neuroscience that would pin the ability to detect cheaters as an evolutionary mechanism wired into our brains. Humans would be born with a built-in security feature to favor trustworthy individuals in society.

 

Source: http://www.cep.ucsb....ingCheaters.pdf


Oh, and I'm not sure that anarchy means what you seem to think it means. Anarchy is also a political ideal...
http://theanarchistl...an-introduction

[cjones91]

The Qun has it's good and bad qualities so it's not entirely evil.

[SerCambria358]

 1. It works in a video game.
 
2. Same. It only works because Bioware wants it to work. Tell that to Russia (yes I know it's not the same, but it's founded on the same principles).
 
3. That's fair, but I would say there's far more evidence that men are selfish and narcissistic--just look around you. And, again, the only reason that the Qun is successful is because Bioware calls it so.

1.)We're discussing a video game, not reality

 

2.)We're discussing a video game, not reality. Plus Communism can not be used as an example to argue why the Qun would fail in reality

 

3.)There's much more evidence that humanity is a caring species. And again, we're discussing a video game not reality, so arguing that this fictional society is "stupid" because you THINK it wouldnt work in reality is again, not a legitimate argument.

[SerCambria358]

1. If we were arguing in-universe, I'd accept that.

 

2. Same.

 

3.There is no "think." There is only what has happened, which is that the analog of this society has been tried and it has failed.

There is a "think" because communism is not an analog for the Qun for multiple reasons therefore it is not legitimate to say that "since communism didnt work, neither would the Qun". Plus it doesnt matter whether that hypothetical situation would work in reality because in the world of Thedas, it does. So again, calling it stupid only because you THINK a fantasy society wouldnt work in reality, is not a legitimate criticism.

[Willowhugger]

Strength is not the only thing important in labor and war, individual skill is far more important and some women are better than some men. The Qun fails to see individual strengths and weaknesses.

People are judged solely by their gender and forced into set societal roles, that is ridiculous.

 

That's one of the interesting things of the Qun that they're sexually regulated and sexist but not patriarchal. Women wield just as much power as the men but don't serve in certain roles which normally have resulted in men having as much power. Of course, as we see with Talis, there's more room for fighting women than Sten initially implies.

But yes, on a basic level, the Qun denies freedom of all sorts. You don't have ANY choices and ANY individual merit is unimportant. If you're an awesome painter and you're a merchant, you're flawed.

Because painting is not what you're supposed to do so why are you doing it?

[Willowhugger]

It's stupid to think that such a thing can actually exist, can actually work. It's utterly idealistic and ignores the anarchic, narcissistic nature of man. Much like communism.

 

It's based on a flawed view of mankind. Or qunarikind. Whatever. I'm saying that that "fully functional society" is not possible, and only naivety thinks it is.

 

Ironically, communism failed in large part because of its draconican authoritarianism while socialist nations thrive better than many capitalist ones so the world is a strange-strange place.

 

But I'm not sure Bioware disagrees with you that following the Qun is impossible for everyone. The Tal-Vashoth seem to be a LOT larger group than Sten let's on (and Sten says they're a fairly HUGE group in his homeland if you get his approval rating high enough) and they have to do a LOT of brainwashing on a regular basis to keep Qun society functioning. The Qun is not an idealistic state because dissent seems to be a constant on-going thing they suppress.

 

If we ever visited their homeland, we'd probably find a massive resistance movement in the countryside.

[Gabdube]

 
Interesting. I would disagree about capitalism--capitalism is founded on the idea that men are greedy, and is designed to function off of that greed. That greed keeps employees working (for more wages). It keeps new companies popping up. And the competition keeps goods of relative quality and price (this is the key point that prevents the "legalized theft").
 
I probably should have said "rebellious" instead of anarchic. That was more referring to the nature of man to defy authority, rather than a political ideal.

 
1. It works in a video game.
 
2. Same. It only works because Bioware wants it to work. Tell that to Russia (yes I know it's not the same, but it's founded on the same principles).
 
3. That's fair, but I would say there's far more evidence that men are selfish and narcissistic--just look around you. And, again, the only reason that the Qun is successful is because Bioware calls it so.

 

No. Capitalism is founded on the idea that everyone's wants do not necessarily conflict with eachother, otherwise economic growth would be impossible. (people would simply steal from eachother, there would be no wealth produced because nobody would contribute to the living conditions of society as a whole).

Yes, people like Adam Smith or Ayn Rand have postulated a glorification of selfishness as a virtue, but they did not invent capitalism. It's an a posteriori justification. Capitalist economy doesn't even work the way they thought it did in reality.

I also wonder why authority would even exist in a human society if it was in the nature of every single human being to oppose it. Authority, in the social and political sense, probably has nothing to do with human nature. It's just a social mechanism that we learn through education, same for wether we oppose it or not.

Historically speaking, feudal societies existed for much longer than democracies. In a typical medieval monarchy, for example, private property doesn't even exist and there is almost zero social mobility. If you were born a poor peasant in "Village X", you'd very likely die a poor peasant in "Village X".

Does that mean that humans are inherently similar to the framework of such a society? Not at all.

 

 

Oh, and, back on topic, the Qun is not a historical allegory for Soviet communism. It is based on Plato's Republic.

 

1. If we were arguing in-universe, I'd accept that.

 

2. Same.

 

3.There is no "think." There is only what has happened, which is that the analog of this society has been tried and it has failed.

 

If there was an attempt to emulate Plato's Republic in reality, and it failed, that would not mean that any attempt to emulate it would always fail too. There were several states whose adoption of free-market capitalism was a huge failure.

Does that mean it is a flawed ideology? No, it only means that their economic system, in their specific context, was inadequate for them at that time.

Free market capitalism is somewhat adequate for occidental countries in our period of history. That may last a long time, or we may find something that works even better depending on how our societies change and how we adapt, who knows.

[TheLittleTpot]

Whether lawful evil or lawful neutral, it sure beats the eggs out of every other large society in Thedas in terms of quality of life. Freedom and choice may be very important from our standpoint, but in Thedas it basically boils down to survival of the fittest; you're free to fight your position of being local guttertrash #42 and aim for a better life but unless you have the right conditions and qualities (connections, physical or mental prowess, being lucky enough to be born in an area or time where your skills can be useful) then you're probably gonna die trying, friend.

 

Evil is very much a matter of perspective. The idea that the Qun is evil because it doesn't allow for freedom outside of your provided role is kinda moot when every other major society in Thedas only offer any real semblance of freedom to people who are wealthy or powerful enough to utilize it. Freedom is pretty useless when you don't have the tools to use it.

 

If evil means I get three square meals a day and a role in society that is almost guaranteed to play to my personal strength, then screw you, Chantry-obsessed nations; I'm going to the Dark Side!

 

It does kinda suck that they don't have any cookies though 

[AshesEleven]

Whether lawful evil or lawful neutral, it sure beats the eggs out of every other large society in Thedas in terms of quality of life. Freedom and choice may be very important from our standpoint, but in Thedas it basically boils down to survival of the fittest; you're free to fight your position of being local guttertrash #42 and aim for a better life but unless you have the right conditions and qualities (connections, physical or mental prowess, being lucky enough to be born in an area or time where your skills can be useful) then you're probably gonna die trying, friend.

Evil is very much a matter of perspective. The idea that the Qun is evil because it doesn't allow for freedom outside of your provided role is kinda moot when every other major society in Thedas only offer any real semblance of freedom to people who are wealthy or powerful enough to utilize it. Freedom is pretty useless when you don't have the tools to use it.

If evil means I get three square meals a day and a role in society that is almost guaranteed to play to my personal strength, then screw you, Chantry-obsessed nations; I'm going to the Dark Side!

It does kinda suck that they don't have any cookies though

I'm sure cookies are the new arishoks number 1 priority

[leaguer of one]

I felt like the comics implied Tevinter isn't nearly as evil as it appears from the perspective of, say, Fenris.

Just like David Gaider said Kirkwall wasn't QUITE the blood-mage ridden ****hole it appeared to be, just Hawke was always in it.

Having some good people in it does not mean it's not an evil government. 

[leaguer of one]

Strength is not the only thing important in labor and war, individual skill is far more important and some women are better than some men. The Qun fails to see individual strengths and weaknesses.

People are judged solely by their gender and forced into set societal roles, that is ridiculous.

Strong women are put in the Ben-Hassrath, were they can fight. The qun does not always stick you to the role they plan for you at the start. It you are of great skill they place you in areas that are out side your pervious role. Look a Tallis, by the qun she would be a farmer, but she is used as a spy and fights for the qun.

[Lavaeolus]

On Tevinter: it's a nation built on slavery and blood sacrifices. Both are pretty solidly Evil actions in D&D's view. It is a nation where the ruling classes focus on power for themselves (which is neutral in-of-itself, I suppose, but coupled with the other stuff lands it very far from Good), lacking a sense of altruism. Slaves are definitely oppressed (they're slaves), and are regularly hurt and killed for the sake of blood magic rituals. This is not only semi-openly accepted, but also expected of the magisters.

 

We've had biased sources on them, admittedly, but unless we go there and it turns out the blood magic rituals are the mages' way of giving the slaves back-massages, by D&D standards it's as Evil as a society can get without being a full-blown dictatorship with laws on how to kill innocents. Note that Evil societies can still produce Good people, and probably produce a lot of Neutral ones.

 

A focus on bloodlines and a class system leans it towards Lawful, but I'm not going to state certainty on that.

[Sir DeLoria]

Very well, I concede your points about the Qun and sexism, I still do not agree with that aspect at all, but I retract my previous statement.

[Former_Fiend]

I will say this; if I lived on Thedas I would personally convert to the qun if for no other reason than that I would prefer to live in the one society that practices proper hygiene.