820 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

This is such bull. Where do you even come up with stuff? 10-30 minutes to change a couple of abilities and tactics. This is a game, not the planning of Waterloo. It's not that difficult.
 
Not only that but you're completely ignoring any kind of semblance of balance or intelligent encounter design that takes the 8 ability limit into account when designing said abilities, or enemies or their weaknesses and strengths or levels or pretty much anything that actually matters. You'll never roll up on enemies and find that none of the 32 possible abilities you have among your party doesn't do any kind of damage to them. Never.
 
Why on earth would BioWare apparently reduce the availability of spells and abilities to 8, in what many are saying is a result of trying to accommodate console players and the more real time/action only gameplay, only to then create totally random and incomprehensible enemies and encounters that require you to spend a half a freaking hour to adequately outfit your party? Something most stereotypical console gamers would absolutely hate. That's absurd.

The whole change is, indeed, absurd. So absurd that some are choosing to ignore the fact that there's no real logic behind it. Encounter design? Really? So intelligent encounter design is "Hey, this is exactly what you need to use to end this quickly. We've made it so that you can just sneak a peek at them and see what they're immune to, and what they're vulnerable to, and, as an added bonus, what level they are, so you can decide if maybe you shouldn't come back later."? What's next, is the dev going to pop in and fight them for you to? You see, trial and error gaming should be as much a part of an RPG as building your character, which is, btw, how you should find out what's a good build and what isn't, trial and error, instead of someone laying out a map for you from the beginning.

So yes, I'm totally against dumbing the game down in the name of "tactical gameplay". As I said, there's nothing tactical about it, it's pure metagame, which may be, again as I have said before, strategic, but it's certainly nothing remotely resembling tactical. If you know exactly what you have to do to beat the mob, what's tactical? Guess what that leads to: People redoing their skills and tactics before the encounter, putting their comps on auto pilot, and face rolling the content. How? Because they know exactly what they need on the bars, they know what won't work. That's not tactical, that's dumbed down to the ground dumbed down, with the added benefit of causing you to spend some time revamping the party before the encounter. With this system, the only fight that might get protracted is dragon fights, and then, shock of shocks, only because they probably have hundreds of thousands of HPs. I realize this is the direction the "I want it now" crowd wants their games to roll, I'm not one of them. What I am is a paying customer that's dissatisfied with what's being presented, and I'm going to express that.

[tmp7704]

Guess what that leads to: People redoing their skills and tactics before the encounter, putting their comps on auto pilot, and face rolling the content. How? Because they know exactly what they need on the bars, they know what won't work. That's not tactical, that's dumbed down to the ground dumbed down, with the added benefit of causing you to spend some time revamping the party before the encounter.

But the alternative is, using similar hyperbole, people doing a save before the encounter, and either face rolling the content outright if the content doesn't turn out immune to their "optimal" approach, or doing it after reload, and doing that without touching their skills, bars etc -- as they already 'have what they need on the bars' because they have everything there. So, how is that not just as "dumbed down to the ground", except even faster?

edit: also, can't say I'm able to muster much outrage at the idea that I may be able to know that enemy type X is immune to Y literally one encounter sooner. Because that's the effective difference -- if I run into my first bear and turns out I can't set it on fire, I make mental note to attack future bears with different type of spell.

[mugwuffin1986]

You see, trial and error gaming should be as much a part of an RPG as building your character, which is, btw, how you should find out what's a good build and what isn't, trial and error, instead of someone laying out a map for you from the beginning.

 

So walking into an encounter unprepared, with the wrong party, wrong ability set & being defeated; isn't trial and error?

 

Weaknesses and resistances are a staple in almost all RPGs, learning to deal with certain types of enemies is just part of the genre.

 

You just seem upset they've changed focus concerning the combat... but the game isn't out, none of us have played it and we don't know how well it will work.

 

If I were you, I would wait for reviews or rent a copy upon release and find out for yourself.

[robertthebard]

You're making the assumption that the abilities have been designed to be that restrictive... we know nothing of them, other than what we can assume will be carried over from previous titles.
 
But even then we know nothing of the effects of upgraded spells or the new passives etc... To me it looks like they're really pushing for people to use the party, but hey... if the abilities are poorly thought out it could very well lead to the constant UI reloading/swapping you seem to be worried about.
 
I still don't see the harm in tweaking your parties tactics/abilities occasionally as you progress or even for a particular encounter. I don't think the combat will be a problem, I don't think the combat will become tiresome either. People play MMOs for years with the same abilities, people have been playing Street Fighter for 20 odd years doing the same combos, if something is fun... it's fun, repetition is generally not a factor.

We really don't know anything about them. I've commented on more than one occasion that if we only have 8 abilities total, this whole rant is moot. This is, however, not my doing. This is "We have to play it close to the vest" syndrome. They waited to reveal the UI until after their big MP reveal, which is also, most likely, why we haven't seen trees that are more than alpha of alpha trees set up for demo and gameplay video purposes. I play these games to get away from MMOs. When it starts feeling like one, it's time to look at why. Tactic tweaks are a constant part of the leveling game. Making an adjustment here or there for a specific encounter is one thing, having to repeat the process an unguessable number of times, anywhere from 1 to nth, will get old fast. Not having access to that "if I only had Skill J, I could end this right now" will get frustrating. The combat will be stale, because we can see exactly what we need to do.

If we have to do a lot of switching for a specific encounter, not a dragon, sometimes the switching will take longer than the encounter. It's not just my bar I have to adjust, but everyone else's too, so I'm already looking at using my party. So the only fix I can see to this is to make load outs. Screens where I can set up skills and tactics to match, and label them accordingly, such as Earth, Wind and Fire... Then it's not so much about switching as clicking a button to get to my load outs, and picking the one I need. To me, this isn't ideal. I'd rather have the "trial and error gaming" that was mentioned earlier, and access to the skills that the Inquis and party have learned available, but, that's not in the game. Instead we have metagamey mechanics to make everything easy, once you're equipped for it. So they may as well go the rest of the way, and make it easy. Maybe 4? Enough where you can have this work done other than doing it in the field when the need arises.

[robertthebard]

So walking into an encounter unprepared, with the wrong party, wrong ability set & being defeated; isn't trial and error?
 
Weaknesses and resistances are a staple in almost all RPGs, learning to deal with certain types of enemies is just part of the genre.
 
You just seem upset they've changed focus concerning the combat... but the game isn't out, none of us have played it and we don't know how well it will work.
 
If I were you, I would wait for reviews or rent a copy upon release and find out for yourself.

How are you going to be able to do this? The tooltip gives you all the information you need to not be able to do this. If you can walk into an encounter armed with all this and fail, then it's not the game design, or the combat that's the problem. I am not the twitch gamer I was 20 years ago, which is why I don't do a lot of PvP in the MMOs I do play, but even I couldn't fail an encounter armed with all the information I need to beat it. When I fail a raid in an MMO, it's not because I went in with everything I needed, it's because I didn't know everything I should know, and neither did everyone with me. I have yet to fail a raid where we had the kinds of information these tooltips give us. I don't think it's even possible to fail it, if the player is armed with that knowledge, and their party isn't using basic gear.

[EnduinRaylene]

The whole change is, indeed, absurd. So absurd that some are choosing to ignore the fact that there's no real logic behind it. Encounter design? Really? So intelligent encounter design is "Hey, this is exactly what you need to use to end this quickly. We've made it so that you can just sneak a peek at them and see what they're immune to, and what they're vulnerable to, and, as an added bonus, what level they are, so you can decide if maybe you shouldn't come back later."? What's next, is the dev going to pop in and fight them for you to? You see, trial and error gaming should be as much a part of an RPG as building your character, which is, btw, how you should find out what's a good build and what isn't, trial and error, instead of someone laying out a map for you from the beginning.

So yes, I'm totally against dumbing the game down in the name of "tactical gameplay". As I said, there's nothing tactical about it, it's pure metagame, which may be, again as I have said before, strategic, but it's certainly nothing remotely resembling tactical. If you know exactly what you have to do to beat the mob, what's tactical? Guess what that leads to: People redoing their skills and tactics before the encounter, putting their comps on auto pilot, and face rolling the content. How? Because they know exactly what they need on the bars, they know what won't work. That's not tactical, that's dumbed down to the ground dumbed down, with the added benefit of causing you to spend some time revamping the party before the encounter. With this system, the only fight that might get protracted is dragon fights, and then, shock of shocks, only because they probably have hundreds of thousands of HPs. I realize this is the direction the "I want it now" crowd wants their games to roll, I'm not one of them. What I am is a paying customer that's dissatisfied with what's being presented, and I'm going to express that.

None of what you're saying makes sense. It's just completely contradictory. If they were really appealing the the "I want it now" crowd why on earth would the design their encounters to require players constantly having to retool their party AI and loadouts. That's absurd. If anything they simply make every loadout work for any encounter.

 

Secondly how do you know that enemy info is just out there for display at all times. When has a dev said that will just be there always for all to see, and not something you unlock through multiple interactions with them and actually discovering those strengths and weaknesses through combat and the attacks you use, or using your Inquisition to scout out and spy on the enemy, because I missed that memo. Your entire argument and outrage is based on nothing but pure conjecture.

 

You're imagining this state of gameplay that simply doesn't exist. On one hand you're complaining about the limits of abilities and how you'll be screwed out of having the necessary ability to defeat an enemy and then in the next breath you talk about how just looking at an enemy will tell us exactly how to beat them. And in both cases we'll have to spend a half hour painstakingly redoing out loadouts and tactics. None of this makes any sense. 

[mugwuffin1986]

We really don't know anything about them. I've commented on more than one occasion that if we only have 8 abilities total, this whole rant is moot. This is, however, not my doing. This is "We have to play it close to the vest" syndrome. They waited to reveal the UI until after their big MP reveal, which is also, most likely, why we haven't seen trees that are more than alpha of alpha trees set up for demo and gameplay video purposes. I play these games to get away from MMOs. When it starts feeling like one, it's time to look at why. Tactic tweaks are a constant part of the leveling game. Making an adjustment here or there for a specific encounter is one thing, having to repeat the process an unguessable number of times, anywhere from 1 to nth, will get old fast. Not having access to that "if I only had Skill J, I could end this right now" will get frustrating. The combat will be stale, because we can see exactly what we need to do.

If we have to do a lot of switching for a specific encounter, not a dragon, sometimes the switching will take longer than the encounter. It's not just my bar I have to adjust, but everyone else's too, so I'm already looking at using my party. So the only fix I can see to this is to make load outs. Screens where I can set up skills and tactics to match, and label them accordingly, such as Earth, Wind and Fire... Then it's not so much about switching as clicking a button to get to my load outs, and picking the one I need. To me, this isn't ideal. I'd rather have the "trial and error gaming" that was mentioned earlier, and access to the skills that the Inquis and party have learned available, but, that's not in the game. Instead we have metagamey mechanics to make everything easy, once you're equipped for it. So they may as well go the rest of the way, and make it easy. Maybe 4? Enough where you can have this work done other than doing it in the field when the need arises.

 

For all we know there could be a neutral tree of talents that allows us good damage for all encounters but the not the optimal amount if we used a particular enemies counter/weakness.

 

We just don't know, releasing talent trees etc... this isn't an MMO and sometimes these things are nice to discover in-game.

 

You have a large party perhaps tailoring individual companions to do certain tasks would be more beneficial than creating multiple loadout saves as you mentioned above.

[robertthebard]

But the alternative is, using similar hyperbole, people doing a save before the encounter, and either face rolling the content outright if the content doesn't turn out immune to their "optimal" approach, or doing it after reload, and doing that without touching their skills, bars etc -- as they already 'have what they need on the bars' because they have everything there. So, how is that not just as "dumbed down to the ground", except even faster?

edit: also, can't say I'm able to muster much outrage at the idea that I may be able to know that enemy type X is immune to Y literally one encounter sooner. Because that's the effective difference -- if I run into my first bear and turns out I can't set it on fire, I make mental note to attack future bears with different type of spell.

This is, however, what adds challenge to the game. Even with all the skills available, if you're going in blind, it's still possible to fail. I'm sure we've all run into that previously, in one game or 10. Instead, it's a walkthrough that you don't even have to look up, you just peek and go. I know I didn't beat Firekraag(sp) the first time I rolled up on him, and I knew what to expect. I thought I had it in the bag with what I knew about him from my D&D experience, and he kicked my ass. The guy that built one of the online NWN modules I played on had another dragon that ate a lot of us going in the first few times, but we eventually, through trial and error, were able to beat him. This is part and parcel of what these games are supposed to be about. Losing that means we lose a lot, even if everyone wants to applaud the new overly simplified "tactical" game.

[mugwuffin1986]

How are you going to be able to do this? The tooltip gives you all the information you need to not be able to do this. If you can walk into an encounter armed with all this and fail, then it's not the game design, or the combat that's the problem. I am not the twitch gamer I was 20 years ago, which is why I don't do a lot of PvP in the MMOs I do play, but even I couldn't fail an encounter armed with all the information I need to beat it. When I fail a raid in an MMO, it's not because I went in with everything I needed, it's because I didn't know everything I should know, and neither did everyone with me. I have yet to fail a raid where we had the kinds of information these tooltips give us. I don't think it's even possible to fail it, if the player is armed with that knowledge, and their party isn't using basic gear.

 

But that's the thing... we don't know, everything right now, everything we know as of this moment about the combat, abilities and encounter design comes from a few brief videos and screenshots.

 

We know the basics, would I like to know more... sure.

 

I try not to over think these things before trying it myself, as I keep saying I haven't played it... we haven't played it. So we just don't know how it "feels" to play or how fluid, enjoyable it is.

 

I understand your concern, I mean... I don't share it. I understand though.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Since you don't know much about DA2, are you sure you're competent to talk about what direction the game took the franchise in?

I saw the severe restrictions in build variety created by the skill trees, and the strict attribute requirements for gear. They basically came right out and said that you had to build your character a certain way. Putting Dexterity on a non-Rogue stopped being a valid option and just immediately gimped your character.

So I modded the game to remove the attribute requirements for abilities, and remove the secondary attribute requirements for gear.

[tmp7704]

This is, however, what adds challenge to the game. Even with all the skills available, if you're going in blind, it's still possible to fail.

Fail how? Compared to the "info dump upfront" the only (slight) snag you can run into is some sort of damage type immunity, but you have all your abilities at your disposal. If one toolbar button doesn't work, you simply use another.

[In Exile]

This is, however, what adds challenge to the game. Even with all the skills available, if you're going in blind, it's still possible to fail. I'm sure we've all run into that previously, in one game or 10. Instead, it's a walkthrough that you don't even have to look up, you just peek and go. I know I didn't beat Firekraag(sp) the first time I rolled up on him, and I knew what to expect. I thought I had it in the bag with what I knew about him from my D&D experience, and he kicked my ass. The guy that built one of the online NWN modules I played on had another dragon that ate a lot of us going in the first few times, but we eventually, through trial and error, were able to beat him. This is part and parcel of what these games are supposed to be about. Losing that means we lose a lot, even if everyone wants to applaud the new overly simplified "tactical" game.

 

So now you're saying that trial and error and metagaming is good? I recall someone who said:

 

"I shouldn't have to peak over the top of a hill, metagame what skills are and aren't going to work, and then spend 10 minutes to a half hour, depending, revamping 4 hot bars and 4 characters tactics to make sure nobody is doing 0 damage per attack." 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lore and gameplay can't line up coherently, with very rare exceptions, I often mention Order of the Stick in this context. In that comic, we see what D&D should be like if characters are actually aware of the D&D ruleset. Goblins is another comic that also does a good job in illustrating what it would be like to have D&D rules and characters aware of those rules.

In my experience, that is exactly how tabletop games work.

I see no reason why CRPGs cannot.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Well... I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

For me you shouldn't have to restrict your design by having to label a mechanic with an in-universe purpose/reason.

Then how do you explain character behaviour? Why did any given character choose to do any given thing if it wasn't based on some expectation of what the result would be?

[In Exile]

In my experience, that is exactly how tabletop games work.

I see no reason why CRPGs cannot.

 

I used OTS as an example to illustrate the kind of self-awareness the setting has to have for this to function. For example, Duncan would actively encourage farming darkspawn to increase XP. NPCs would know that it is impossible to acquire the taint unless there is a "plot-relevant" moment. Morrigan should know that becoming a healer is a great way to become incredibly OP.

[In Exile]

Then how do you explain character behaviour? Why did any given character choose to do any given thing if it wasn't based on some expectation of what the result would be?

 

There is no character behaviour. It is pure gameplay contrivance: the relevant justification comes from the player, and OOC consideration relating to combat. 

[AlanC9]

If none of the abilities you're using work, you're not able to pick something else, no changing skills in combat, remember? This is such a grand idea, isn't it?Wait, the context is wrong here. This situation can't happen, because I can peak over the hill, mouse over the enemy, see what they're immune to, and then spend 10 minutes to a half hour, again, depending on what everyone's using at the time, resetting skills and tactics to accommodate my metagame knowledge of what lies ahead. Yeah, this is a grand idea.

What's the chance that none of your abilities will work? Assuming that you're not actively trying to screw yourself, of course. If you've built everyone to use all fire damage all the time and you run into fire-resistant enemies, of course you're going to need to reload and rebuild. But that's just because you had a stupid build to start with.

(I'm not sure "peeking over the hill" is going to work; my bet is that those interface elements will only work in combat.)

[AlanC9]

I used OTS as an example to illustrate the kind of self-awareness the setting has to have for this to function. For example, Duncan would actively encourage farming darkspawn to increase XP. NPCs would know that it is impossible to acquire the taint unless there is a "plot-relevant" moment. Morrigan should know that becoming a healer is a great way to become incredibly OP.

Is anyone else suddenly thinking of OOTS during this thread? We should start posting pics.

[In Exile]

What's the chance that none of your abilities will work? Assuming that you're not actively trying to screw yourself, of course. If you've built everyone to use all fire damage all the time and you run into fire-resistant enemies, of course you're going to need to reload and rebuild. But that's just because you had a stupid build to start with.

(I'm not sure "peeking over the hill" is going to work; my bet is that those interface elements will only work in combat.)

 

Switching gears to an actually interesting mechanic, Bioware has mentioned that scounting will be supported (to some degree) and that it is through repeated encounters (there may be other sources) whereby we can learn the exact specifications of our enemies. So we might need to fight (for example) red templar infantry a few times before we learn that they're actually 50% resistant to physical damage but especially weak to controller-type spells (e.g. mind blast). 

[mugwuffin1986]

controller

 

Sshh... you might rustle some jimmies.

 

Sounds like a fun mechanic though... throw it on a rogue.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I used OTS as an example to illustrate the kind of self-awareness the setting has to have for this to function. For example, Duncan would actively encourage farming darkspawn to increase XP. NPCs would know that it is impossible to acquire the taint unless there is a "plot-relevant" moment. Morrigan should know that becoming a healer is a great way to become incredibly OP.

Right. Just how tabletop games work.

[AlanC9]

Switching gears to an actually interesting mechanic, Bioware has mentioned that scounting will be supported (to some degree) and that it is through repeated encounters (there may be other sources) whereby we can learn the exact specifications of our enemies. So we might need to fight (for example) red templar infantry a few times before we learn that they're actually 50% resistant to physical damage but especially weak to controller-type spells (e.g. mind blast).

Interesting. I've seen that mechanic in strategy games; you don't get to see the stats on unknown enemy unit types immediately in the Total War games, for instance. So the tooltip is just a live Codex entry.

[Sylvius the Mad]

There is no character behaviour. It is pure gameplay contrivance: the relevant justification comes from the player, and OOC consideration relating to combat.

I can't accept that. As soon as I think that's true, I stop playing.

[addiction21]

Parity across all platforms. Console gamers should be treated equally as they are Bioware customers too. And yeah a multi-platform game means consolification if you put it that way. That is why it's better a game on PC first and later ported over to consoles. But this is how the industry works now. Hopefully, there can really be a mod to remove this limitation?

 

Since the previous games had more actions available on console and for PC they were entirely dependent on the resolution not sure how this is "consikufation" or what ever other word you want to make up.

[In Exile]

Right. Just how tabletop games work.

 

I get what you mean now. Yes, like tabletop. 

 

Interesting. I've seen that mechanic in strategy games; you don't get to see the stats on unknown enemy unit types immediately in the Total War games, for instance. So the tooltip is just a live Codex entry.

 

I think so, yes. The mechanic becomes really interesting if certain Inquisition upgrades can speed up the scouting (or make it automatic). Then we have actual meaningful strategic choice in terms of growing the Inquisition.