820 réponses à ce sujet

[Oloos]

Let me guess, you've never actually been in the military? I have, and everything I needed for my MOS I could carry, except for, of course, the truck. Imagine that, it carried me. The problem is that, while in the field I can indeed adapt to the situation, such as using my M16 instead of my M60, once you start combat in game, if your tactics aren't working, you're reloading, because you can't adapt on the fly any more, no changing skills in combat.

 

I never been in the military no. But i still think my point is valid. I mean, i imagine you can find yourself in the dire need of a rocket-launcher when the mission specified you would not find anything recquiring one and then, not have it.

 

And maybe my analogy was badly chosen, but the same thing apply can to various other situations.

[robertthebard]

What? You're telling me I'm not going to get the most from my 15" black & white CRT? How discriminative!

Yer doooooooommed.

[Krazy Krazer]

How does inferior hardware have anything to do with lore or game design/gameplay? As I said, self imposed limitations have nothing to do with the topic.

 

We're talking about the limitation of the ability bar being 8 slots and that somehow breaks lore, I used the example of resolution because the ability bar is also limited due to resolution size in previous games. Not everyone has a good machine but enough to run the game. Again, my point being, lore shouldn't be mixed with gameplay. If we have 8 slots, we shouldn't assume our character somehow forgot his abilities because of gameplay design.

[robertthebard]

I never been in the military no. But i still think my point is valid. I mean, i imagine you can find yourself in the dire need of a rocket-launcher when the mission specified you would not find anything recquiring one and then, not have it.
 
And maybe my analogy was badly chosen, but the same thing apply can to various other situations.

If I needed a rocket launcher, I'd get my LAW out, they are portable, and easily carried. The thing is, the analogy is actually pretty good, since I can indeed change tactics in combat in that kind of situation, but in game, we will no longer be able to. Once you decide on your load out, you're stuck with it until combat is over. It won't be a bad thing if it's working, but if it's not, you're about done.

[robertthebard]

We're talking about the limitation of the ability bar being 8 slots and that somehow breaks lore, I used the example of resolution because the ability bar is also limited due to resolution size in previous games. Not everyone has a good machine but enough to run the game. Again, my point being, lore shouldn't be mixed with gameplay. If we have 8 slots, we shouldn't assume our character somehow forgot his abilities because of gameplay design.

Then what is the reason for forgetting skills that you've trained? Amnesia? No, that can't be it, because if you're not in combat, you can suddenly re-remember them. So really, there's no reason other than arbitrary game design to cause us to "forget" what we've learned.

[Oloos]

Once you decide on your load out, you're stuck with it until combat is over. It won't be a bad thing if it's working, but if it's not, you're about done.

 

That's why thinking about the load out you'll go with may be an interesting thing for the gameplay. Either you go "full on fire" for instance and maul everything with it praying you won't stumble upon something immune to it, either you "gimp" yourself by mixing types of abilities making you less efficient in general but able to fight everything, just with more difficulty. That would force us to use our brains a little more before going to fight. Not sure it's a bad thing.

[DarthLaxian]

Because they have closed the other thread, two self quotes to start of

 

1.

 

Hey Bioware (Hey BSN, too),

 

Now you have done it - you say you are listening to us and then you repeat old misstakes or don't even take our critisism seriously (like people arguing against the removal of "real" healing magic, health regeneration out of combat etc.) and now you rob us of game-play variety, too?

 

I am sorry, but as I play mages mostly, I am used to using a whole range of abilities, spells etc. because they are helpfull - only having so few would have made DA:O very boring -.- (and certain situations even harder to manage/beat)...I loved to jump in as a replacement healer, if my main was down or take over the crowd control if my companion had his/her abilities on cooldown etc. - now what do I have left?

 

Either I go for full crowd controll and can't do any damage (because I don't have any quickbar-slots left), or go full damage and have no crowd controll or mitigation (because we can't heal anymore anyway)

 

Or I mix and become a "Jack of all traits master of none"-kind of character that is pretty useless IMHO -.-

 

Thanks guys, really...maybe I should look into not pre-ordering (I haven't done so until now, because I was very untrusting of you guys (now I do know why...I had a bad feeling, with you keeping so many details to your self...) after DA2 and even more so after Crap-Effect 3 (ME3)...both of which were not very good IMHO!)...

 

greetings LAX

 

2.

 

Nohvarr, on 31 Aug 2014 - 8:56 PM, said:

Considering you've already made up your mind without waiting for Bioware to explain the details, I'd say your guilty of the same thing. You've assumed the game is going to be bad because of the UI, despite you claiming to be previously interested in it. So forgive me if I see this as the pot calling the kettle black,

 

 

Sorry, but:

 

What is there to say? - IMHO this is not justifiable (there is no real reason for it...except maybe crappy multiplayer and that does not count because I do not want that in the first place)

 

That's like the non-healing out of combat - I does not add anything worthwhile to the game, actually both mechanics detract from the fun the game could be IMHO, it just adds tedium and throws wrenches into playstyles etc.

 

greetings LAX

 

AND another quote I wanted to answer by Nohvarr:

 

And that's the problem. You've assumed it's not justifiable without even giving Bioware a chance to explain their thinking. That's been the problem with this entire thread. Instead of asking for an explanation, it began with a person hating their interpretation of why this was done. At that point, people dug in their heels and refused to consider anything else. I see straw man arguments, I see people assuming this is proof Bioware's not listening (which is untrue, they listen they just don't always agree with you), and I see people using the revealed UI to spin some rather wild theories about how the game will play.

 

My answer:

 

So: Here we are and I will answer that - That's not the problem, the problem is that there is no really good justification really...It simply does not exists (!) - It does not add anything good to the game (cutting down on skills etc. can't be good...unless you have 10 skills doing exactly the same - but DA never had that (!))...so how can it be good, if it can't be justified?

 

Answer: It can't and if it can't be justified, why would I need (we - I guess I am not alone in that) to give them a chance?

 

No I am not spinning a tale - I am just taking what they said: "Only 8 abilities and you can only change them outside of combat" and take from it, that it limits my abilities (which it does!), that it makes me unable to access all my abilities while fighting (no matter how much I might need one that isn't in my quickbar at the moment) and that is exactly what they have been saying (and it throws wrenches into my gameplay that I didn't want -.- and yes, not agreeing is the same as not listening (after all: we pay them money, so they should at least try to appease us...not go into the exact opposite direction -.-)

 

greetings LAX

ps: Even more so as 8 Abilities (and us accepting it without protest) gives them a precedent to cut it down even further (damned if I want limited abilities I can play League of Legends, too and I don't even need to spend money on that if I don't want to!)

[robertthebard]

That's why thinking about the load out you'll go with may be an interesting thing for the gameplay. Either you go "full on fire" for instance and maul everything with it praying you won't stumble upon something immune to it, either you "gimp" yourself by mixing types of abilities making you less efficient in general but able to fight everything, just with more difficulty. That would force us to use our brains a little more before going to fight. Not sure it's a bad thing.

...and until we actually get to see the skill trees, and see how they work, we won't know if it's good or bad. Based on what we do know, however, from previous titles, it's not looking good.

[Rawgrim]

We're talking about the limitation of the ability bar being 8 slots and that somehow breaks lore, I used the example of resolution because the ability bar is also limited due to resolution size in previous games. Not everyone has a good machine but enough to run the game. Again, my point being, lore shouldn't be mixed with gameplay. If we have 8 slots, we shouldn't assume our character somehow forgot his abilities because of gameplay design.

 

Then how do you explain the wizards choice NOT to use all his spells in a combat?

[The Night Haunter]

I never been in the military no. But i still think my point is valid. I mean, i imagine you can find yourself in the dire need of a rocket-launcher when the mission specified you would not find anything recquiring one and then, not have it.
 
And maybe my analogy was badly chosen, but the same thing apply can to various other situations.

If you want to continue the military thing, squads are set up to handle any scenario (within reason, aliens aren't included). Squads carry heavy weapons, including anti-armor. They get around the 1 person can't carry everything limitation by having different soldiers carry different gear.


But anyway, skills aren't gear to carry. It is knowledge of how to perform an attack, or spell, or tactic. So your point is we leave parts of brain behind every fight so they don't over encumber us?

[Oloos]

...and until we actually get to see the skill trees, and see how they work, we won't know if it's good or bad. Based on what we do know, however, from previous titles, it's not looking good.

 

Indeed, that's why i don't really see the point of all the shitstorm happening in the BSN since the sceenshot appeared : whe simply do not know enough, whe want to know more about it, yes, but we don't have to be this angry about it.

 

For now, i'm just staying positive because that's who i am.

[mugwuffin1986]

Mike Laidlaw @Mike_Laidlaw 

Ability count clarity: DAI is about roles, planning ahead and making tactical decisions. Potions, ability choice, gear, party composition

 

 

Thanks for completely disregarding my post and for your information i've played GW2. The combat in that game is nothing like any traditional type of MMO (WoW, SWTOR, or Aion), which is what DA:O combat is very similar too if you don't count companions.

 

My point was if you're gono have so many spells to choose from, then allow me to use them ASAP. Don't force me to pause the game and go into list of spells and search for the specific attack that i wish to use, it's boring and it ruins the immersion. Hell i consider DA2 to be probably the most dumbed down RPG ever made and it has more slots than Inquisition has.

 

And why it shouldn't? PC is suppost to take advantages and allow us for more options when it comes to UI (DA:O did).

I'm not talking about console "limitation" or "PC master race", but just because the consoles are using limited slot system doesn't mean PC has to use it as well.

 

As I said before and is being confirmed by the devs... DA:I is about forethought and composition. I believe this to be a direct result of people barely touching companions in previous entries.

 

It's been specifically designed that way... how about play it and see for yourself if it works, instead crying to the heavens before it's even out.

[Oloos]

But anyway, skills aren't gear to carry. It is knowledge of how to perform an attack, or spell, or tactic. So your point is we leave parts of brain behind every fight so they don't over encumber us?

 

Well, gameplay does not need to be realistic, it should need to make things fun and interesting to play.

 

And if not being able to use a spell because we "forgot" it back at the camp brings interesting situations while fighting, i'm good with it.

[darkiddd]

Only using 8 abilities in combat is a huge nerf to our character. I don't like it.

[LexXxich]

There's a whole thread, with screenshots, about all the ability trees things we know up till now. Those screenshots consistently show that "abilities we can take into encounter" are already limited and chosen by the very levelling process. Just like in previous two games, character only knows spells and talents that AP were spent on. So the planning part happens there already. 8 ability restriction does not actually add anything to strategic or tactical options, nor does it somehow makes combat deeper.

[KennethAFTopp]

Well, gameplay does not need to be realistic, it should need to make things fun and interesting to play.

 

And if not being able to use a spell because we "forgot" it back at the camp brings interesting situations while fighting, i'm good with it.

 

could be kinda like D&D, you can only prepare this many spells a day, and so on.

[Blooddrunk1004]

As I said before and is being confirmed by the devs... DA:I is about forethought and composition. I believe this to be a direct result of people barely touching companions in previous entries.

 

It's been specifically designed that way... how about play it and see for yourself if it works, instead crying to the heavens before it's even out.

So because i dislike something and i voiced my concerns = crying?

 

"DAI is about roles, planning ahead and making tactical decisions. Potions, ability choice, gear, party composition".

Yeah guess what, DA:O did that aswell.

[mugwuffin1986]

So because i dislike something and i voiced my concerns = crying?

 

"DAI is about roles, planning ahead and making tactical decisions. Potions, ability choice, gear, party composition".

Yeah guess what, DA:O did that aswell.

 

I didn't literally mean crying... I meant more screaming in frustration.

 

Also you completely skipped over the part where I said this new system was put in place to put more emphasis on party control.

 

I just find it strange people think having 80+ abilities across 4 people means more fun... when 32 means dumbing down and boring.

 

If done correctly either way can be good, game isn't out... try it before you judge it. Maybe have a little faith the devs know what they're doing.

[rupok93]

I think you guys should mass ask them on twitter to clarify how the combat works to justify only 8 abilities. Ask mike laidlaw and Mark darrah.

 

Buzzword like "forethought" means literally nothing. Whatever they said sounds like smoke and mirrors, I wanna know details.

[tmp7704]

Then how do you explain the wizards choice NOT to use all his spells in a combat?

The Rifts have curious effect on everyone's short-term memory, allowing them to focus on no more than 8 spells in stressful situations like combat.

Seriously, it's not like they explain why rogues can't equip shields and longswords and warriors forgot how to use the bows, either.

[Joseph Warrick]

Being insufferable on twitter seems like a good way to maintain a good relationship with developers so they feel compelled to share stuff with players. Yeah peeps you should organize to ask them the same question a thousand times.

[Wulfram]

Seriously, it's not like they explain why rogues can't equip shields and longswords and warriors forgot how to use the bows, either.

 

It's not exactly hard to explain.  They haven't got the training, and are smart enough not to mess around without it.

[tmp7704]

It's not exactly hard to explain.  They haven't got the training, and are smart enough not to mess around without it.

So why did all nations of Thedas collectively stopped giving their warriors bow training after DA:O, and all warriors who already had the skills apparently lost them on the spot?

(what I'm getting at is, the "lore explanations" tend to be stupid and don't really hold water, so there's little reason to stress there isn't one for some aspects of the gameplay)

[Pateu]

This is such bull. Where do you even come up with stuff? 10-30 minutes to change a couple of abilities and tactics. This is a game, not the planning of Waterloo. It's not that difficult.

 

Not only that but you're completely ignoring any kind of semblance of balance or intelligent encounter design that takes the 8 ability limit into account when designing said abilities, or enemies or their weaknesses and strengths or levels or pretty much anything that actually matters. You'll never roll up on enemies and find that none of the 32 possible abilities you have among your party doesn't do any kind of damage to them. Never.

 

Why on earth would BioWare apparently reduce the availability of spells and abilities to 8, in what many are saying is a result of trying to accommodate console players and the more real time/action only gameplay, only to then create totally random and incomprehensible enemies and encounters that require you to spend a half a freaking hour to adequately outfit your party? Something most stereotypical console gamers would absolutely hate. That's absurd.

 

Come on, that's simple.

 

So the Console players don't feel left out. 

 

The dumbing down must continue in order for console versions to sell.

 

They prefer selling on consoles than on PCs because PCs have piracy, so they will take away PC advantages that may make people want to buy it on a PC just so they make sure they get their money.

 

That's really shitty and if Bioware doesn't fix this I'm boycotting.

[CronoDragoon]

They prefer selling on consoles than on PCs because PCs have piracy, so they will take away PC advantages that may make people want to buy it on a PC just so they make sure they get their money.

 

You are misinformed. PC never had an advantage over console because console could also use all their abilities.

 

It isn't getting changed, so go ahead and boycott.