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[In Exile]

Which means even less points for active skills. You might only end up with eight to ten.

That's what I'm getting at, yes.

[EnduinRaylene]

Which means even less points for active skills. You might only end up with eight to ten.

Pretty much. If what we know is accurate it should take players until level 26, at the earliest, to max out two base trees and a specialization, leaving only 4 more levels to invest in upgrades. Or they could invest in three base trees by level 29.

Everything definitely feels geared towards the 8 ability limit, I'm not convinced it's for the best, but they certainly seem to be building around it, which is a good thing if everything is properly balanced around it.

[Ieolus]

Why even bother with a PC UI if you aren't going to use the advantages of a keyboard/mouse?  This decision is insane, crippling the functionality on purpose?  Come on.

 

Edit: At least we know now why they kept the PC UI hidden from us all this time.  They knew how people would react.

[LexXxich]

Pretty much. If what we know is accurate it should take players until level 26, at the earliest, to max out two base trees and a specialization, leaving only 4 more levels to invest in upgrades. Or they could invest in three base trees by level 29.

Everything definitely feels geared towards the 8 ability limit, I'm not convinced it's for the best, but they certainly seem to be building around it, which is a good thing if everything is properly balanced around it.

If the number of abilities a character can have is restricted already by levelling process, what is the point of additional restriction by UI?

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Why even bother with a PC UI if you aren't going to use the advantages of a keyboard/mouse?  This decision is insane, crippling the functionality on purpose?  Come on.

 

Edit: At least we know now why they kept the PC UI hidden from us all this time.  They knew how people would react.

 

Don't give them any ideas

[Ieolus]

Don't give them any ideas

 

Why?  Seriously.  Whats the point of the PC UI now?

[durasteel]

This is getting a bit ridiculous. Mass Effect 1 was originally created as an Xbox exclusive: Mass Effect 2's changes, again, were not because of console, but because ME1's combat had issues on ALL platforms.

 

Of course, you can say ME2 was chasing the shooter crowd, but then PC is just as rife with shooters as console, so that's again unrelated.

 

Dammit, I have to agree with CronoDragoon.

 

See what you made me do?

 

Mass Effect had a truly horrible inventory system. By the end of the game I had enough omnigel to float a boat in, and still had too much crap I was carrying around.

[EnduinRaylene]

If the number of abilities a character can have is restricted already by levelling process, what is the point of additional restriction by UI?

My guess would be balancing the abilities and promoting companion roles. Since the overall number we will end up with is quite low and so much of the abilities we get are passive abilities that likely boost our attacks and defense greatly, the active abilities we do have will be quite powerful and versatile. Limiting to 8 at a time likely allows them to have greater control when balancing them out since they know exactly what players will have. It's easier to balance out abilities, enemies and combat in general when you have exact limits, compared to the possibility of some players having 20 abilities and others having only 7.

As well limiting the number of abilities likely helps to promote the use of companions and more so the creation of roles for each. Since each member is limited players will have to think harder about where they want each member to fit into the overall make up of the team. Each companion becomes more valuable as a result of the lower overall ability count and the active ability limitation. That's my guess for now based on what we know at least.

[Ieolus]

My guess would be balancing the abilities and promoting companion roles. Since the overall number we will end up with is quite low and so much of the abilities we get are passive abilities that likely boost our attacks and defense greatly, the active abilities we do have will be quite powerful and versatile. Limiting to 8 at a time likely allows them to have greater control when balancing them out since they know exactly what players will have. It's easier to balance out abilities, enemies and combat in general when you have exact limits, compared to the possibility of some players having 20 abilities and others having only 7.

As well limiting the number of abilities likely helps to promote the use of companions and more so the creation of roles for each. Since each member is limited players will have to think harder about where they want each member to fit into the overall make up of the team. Each companion becomes more valuable as a result of the lower overall ability count and the active ability limitation. That's my guess for now based on what we know at least.

 

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that instead of being restricted to 8 slots for abilities, you believe we will only have 8 abilities total to put in those slots?  So each character of a certain class will be the same as every other, ever?  Surely you jest.  Because if that is not the case, it couldn't possibility be easier to balance.

[EnduinRaylene]

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that instead of being restricted to 8 slots for abilities, you believe we will only have 8 abilities total to put in those slots? So each character of a certain class will be the same as every other, ever? Surely you jest. Because if that is not the case, it couldn't possibility be easier to balance.

That's not what I'm saying at all. If you look at the ability trees the evidence suggests that most players have around 12 to 15 active abilities by level 30 depending how they their characters choose upgrades.

The 8 slot limit likely allows for better balancing because it gives The devs a much more predictable idea of what the player can do at any one point, regardless of their overall ability count. Not that everyone will be the same.

[Ieolus]

That's not what I'm saying at all. If you look at the ability trees the evidence suggests that most players have around 12 to 15 active abilities by level 30 depending how they their characters choose upgrades

 

Well good.  So how would it be easier to balance since there could be almost any combination of those 12 to 15 active abilities at the end game?  It wouldn't.  I understand where you are coming from, but just making stuff up doesn't help your cause.

 

What actually needs to be balanced anyway?  Why would each class need to be balanced against the others?  Is there a hidden PvP game hidden somewhere I've never read about.

[In Exile]

Why even bother with a PC UI if you aren't going to use the advantages of a keyboard/mouse? This decision is insane, crippling the functionality on purpose? Come on.

Edit: At least we know now why they kept the PC UI hidden from us all this time. They knew how people would react.

The # of abilities has almost 0 to do with the KBM advantages. I hate the choice, but let's be realsitic here.

[EnduinRaylene]

Well good. So how would it be easier to balance since there could be almost any combination of those 12 to 15 active abilities at the end game? It wouldn't. I understand where you are coming from, but just making stuff up doesn't help your cause.

What actually needs to be balanced anyway? Why would each class need to be balanced against the others? Is there a hidden PvP game hidden somewhere I've never read about.

I'm not making anything up, it's math. While there can be any number of combinations of those 12 to 15 abilities there will always a max of 8 of them. That's what matters. What's easier balancing an encounter when one player might have 7 abilities on hand and another could have 20 or where one player has 7 the other 8?

[robertthebard]

Well good.  So how would it be easier to balance since there could be almost any combination of those 12 to 15 active abilities at the end game?  It wouldn't.  I understand where you are coming from, but just making stuff up doesn't help your cause.
 
What actually needs to be balanced anyway?  Why would each class need to be balanced against the others?  Is there a hidden PvP game hidden somewhere I've never read about.

While I tend to agree, there needs to be some balance between the factions, playable and unplayable NPCs included, because w/out it, an NPC could one shot the entire group, either way. These things need to be balanced so that combat isn't always just "Push button, kill group, move to next group, rinse and repeat".

[Ieolus]

The # of abilities has almost 0 to do with the KBM advantages. I hate the choice, but let's be realsitic here.

 

Almost 0?  Who is not being realistic?

[Ieolus]

I'm not making anything up, it's math. While there can be any number of combinations of those 12 to 15 abilities there will always a max of 8 of them. That's what matters. What's easier balancing an encounter when one player might have 7 abilities on hand and another could have 20 or where one player has 7 the other 8?

 

It doesn't matter, since any encounter has to be balanced against all the abilities possible at a given level.

[Ieolus]

While I tend to agree, there needs to be some balance between the factions, playable and unplayable NPCs included, because w/out it, an NPC could one shot the entire group, either way. These things need to be balanced so that combat isn't always just "Push button, kill group, move to next group, rinse and repeat".

 

Its a wonder how BG, NWN, and DA:O ever were "balanced".

[robertthebard]

I'm not making anything up, it's math. While there can be any number of combinations of those 12 to 15 abilities there will always a max of 8 of them. That's what matters. What's easier balancing an encounter when one player might have 7 abilities on hand and another could have 20 or where one player has 7 the other 8?

You evidently don't understand what balancing means, but just read it somewhere up thread, thought it sounded good and repeated it? Simply, all the abilities are tuned so that they aren't 1 shot kills, where they shouldn't be. If you're capped, whacking low level mobs, it can get that way easily, but fighting against at level mobs, skills may do significant damage, but Fireball won't essentially kill the party 8 times based on the amount of damage it puts out. It doesn't matter how many skills there are for each class, what matters, for balancing, is that they are dialed to appropriate numbers to start, and then resistances/vulnerabilities etc are factored in, and balanced from there.

This process is done in every game where there are activate-able abilities. It doesn't matter if there are only 4 total abilities you can use, or 104. So "balance", yeah, nothing to do with it.

[In Exile]

Almost 0? Who is not being realistic?

You. The # of slots isn't what PC offers us. DA2 had the same number of abilities available via radial menu. KoTOR had far more powers available using a worse UI.

KBM gives us point and click gameplay, superior graphics/load times, etc.

[In Exile]

Its a wonder how BG, NWN, and DA:O ever were "balanced".

They weren't. Mages were comically broken in each of them and the game was worse for it.

[EnduinRaylene]

You evidently don't understand what balancing means, but just read it somewhere up thread, thought it sounded good and repeated it? Simply, all the abilities are tuned so that they aren't 1 shot kills, where they shouldn't be. If you're capped, whacking low level mobs, it can get that way easily, but fighting against at level mobs, skills may do significant damage, but Fireball won't essentially kill the party 8 times based on the amount of damage it puts out. It doesn't matter how many skills there are for each class, what matters, for balancing, is that they are dialed to appropriate numbers to start, and then resistances/vulnerabilities etc are factored in, and balanced from there.This process is done in every game where there are activate-able abilities. It doesn't matter if there are only 4 total abilitieps you can use, or 104. So "balance", yeah, nothing to do with it.

Evidently you don't know how not to be a jerk in a civil discussion. I'm not taking about just raw numbers of damage output when I say balance I'm taking about the entire combat system. The 8 ability limit informs the level progression and skill progression, how powerful and versatile abilities need to be, how the encounters are designed. Knowing the player will only have a max of 8 abilities gives the devs a more predictable idea of what the player will be doing. Having only 8 abilities will result in players making certain choices like possibly opting to upgrade an ability they already have over getting a new one which would need to replace one on their full load out. That helps them when balancing, when creating encounters, and developing the skills and trees as a whole. Limits help cut down on the unexpected and unaccounted, things that can often lead to broken mechanics in games due to poor balancing. Where certain abilities or classes end up being way too powerful, like Mages in DAO and Storm of the Century and several other broken strategies both obscure and obvious that made many of the mages spells quite useless in comparison.

[AlanC9]

Its a wonder how BG, NWN, and DA:O ever were "balanced".

Who says they were?

( oh, right, that's your point....)

[robertthebard]

They weren't. Mages were comically broken in each of them and the game was worse for it.

Really? I never really noticed, and none of the forums I visited ever brought any of this stuff up for BG. In NWN I played Bards, mostly, with some random nonsense thrown in, such as Druid Arcane Archers, but I never noticed mages being ridiculously op in NWN, and in DAO, of course they were overpowered, according to the people that couldn't/wouldn't play them. I don't know about you, but I got my highest damage, and the achievement for it, on an Archer in DA O. Maybe I was just OP?

Apparently, however, what you're saying is that BioWare doesn't know how to balance the games anyway. So my question is, why even bother to try, if they're not going to be able to pull it off, and what does that have to do with how many skills are on the bar? Please leave off with balance, since as we can see, balance has nothing to do with it.

[Maeshone]

You speak as if they are doing some revolutionary change.

 

They're simply dumbing down the game even more by taking away a lot of possible builds.

That is not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying that they are changing things up, not revolutionizing the whole game. My entire point was to change gameplay while keeping the core, not doing something "revolutionary". Please stop putting words in my mouth. The argument is exactly the same as FFXIII dumbing down gameplay because it added an auto-button that selected a decent, but sub-par in the long run, attack-string for you. It was more efficient to play the game properly, and the rest of the changes to the paradigm system made for one of the best FF battle systems as of yet. 

 

Change does not equal dumbing down, even when it's streamlining. It simply means that you're gonna have to play the game somewhat differently from the previous titles.

[robertthebard]

Evidently you don't know how not to be a jerk in a civil discussion.

Really? Man, if I were a White Knight, I'd educate you on the finer points of being a jerk. I'm not, so I'm not immune to the ToS.