820 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

That is not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying that they are changing things up, not revolutionizing the whole game. My entire point was to change gameplay while keeping the core, not doing something "revolutionary". Please stop putting words in my mouth. The argument is exactly the same as FFXIII dumbing down gameplay because it added an auto-button that selected a decent, but sub-par in the long run, attack-string for you. It was more efficient to play the game properly, and the rest of the changes to the paradigm system made for one of the best FF battle systems as of yet. 
 
Change does not equal dumbing down, even when it's streamlining. It simply means that you're gonna have to play the game somewhat differently from the previous titles.

The only thing that changes about gameplay is, you guessed it, you might have to redo your skills and tactics every time you change areas, or, any time that mob types vary enough that your previous set up isn't going to work very well, or at all. This isn't tactical, or challenging gameplay, this is "here, you don't have to go online to get a walkthrough on playing the game, we're going to lay it out for you in the tooltips. Read 'em, build accordingly, and nuke the hell outta 'em, thx for buying our game".

[AlanC9]

So fewer active abilities make the combat less challenging somehow? Could you work through the steps of that argument? Or are you just saying that this design will lead you to play a boring style? Some of your other posts made it sound like you just won't be able to bear playing with a non-optimized party build, so you'll have to keep rebuilding all the time in order to avoid that.

Is this one of those gamer's OCD things?

[robertthebard]

So fewer active abilities make the combat less challenging somehow? Could you work through the steps of that argument? Or are you just saying that this design will lead you to play a boring style? Some of your other posts made it sound like you just won't be able to bear playing with a non-optimized party build, so you'll just have to keep rebuilding all the time.

Is this one of those gamer's OCD things?

I have, several times, but just to be clear: You look at mob's tooltip, you see what it's immune to, and what it's vulnerable to, you set up your skills accordingly. If you can't road map that encounter out with those tools, it's not the game's fault.

[robertthebard]

robertthebard never said it made it LESS challenging.
 
robertthebard is arguing against the notion that it makes it MORE challenging.
 
 
I would actually say it DOES make it more challenging, in an artificial way--but that's his point, anyway. I'm guessing, anyway.

The only thing it's going to challenge, barring maybe dragons, is my patience, setting up the skills and tactics any time I have to do it beyond leveling up, and knowing I'm getting to a boss fight, where I'd likely make adjustments anyway.

[seraphymon]

I have, several times, but just to be clear: You look at mob's tooltip, you see what it's immune to, and what it's vulnerable to, you set up your skills accordingly. If you can't road map that encounter out with those tools, it's not the game's fault.

Thats not tactful. Thats just tedious labor that is unneeded. If you can't see the mobs or bosses weakpoints, then its a matter of trial an error, which in this particular case, is no dependent on players skill, which is frustrating in a bad way.

[DarthLaxian]

That is not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying that they are changing things up, not revolutionizing the whole game. My entire point was to change gameplay while keeping the core, not doing something "revolutionary". Please stop putting words in my mouth. The argument is exactly the same as FFXIII dumbing down gameplay because it added an auto-button that selected a decent, but sub-par in the long run, attack-string for you. It was more efficient to play the game properly, and the rest of the changes to the paradigm system made for one of the best FF battle systems as of yet. 

 

Change does not equal dumbing down, even when it's streamlining. It simply means that you're gonna have to play the game somewhat differently from the previous titles.

 

If by "changing things up" you mean:

 

Fixing what is not in any way, shape or form broken, than you are spot on (dead center) - while leaving other issues fans have been lamenting/cursing about since DA:O alone (like floating weapons without sheaths, daggers on the back etc.)

 

I mean if I write down everything that's not broken and was supposedly fixed...well, I will not start that, I'll just say:

 

- health regeneration

- healing spells

- potions

- hotbars

- companions's sexual orientation (which was better in DA2 IMHO)

...etc. (it's early in the morning and I haven't slept much, so I will leave now, but I might finish (and add it to another posting) this list later on ^^)

 

greetings LAX

ps: Yes, I am one of the people saying that they are lying (or at the very least not telling the whole truth), because the last time (or should I say times - it was twice...how do you natives say "fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me" - so rather than being made a fool again, I am hostile and rude ATM...call it self protection...a bit like Morrigan in DA:O) I got burned badly (DA2 was bad enough, but Crap-Effect 3 (ME3)...don't get me started...I could fill pages with my gripes with that crappy game!)

[AlanC9]

I have, several times, but just to be clear: You look at mob's tooltip, you see what it's immune to, and what it's vulnerable to, you set up your skills accordingly.

Right. I still say that by the time you can use the tool tips it'll be too late. Your combat abilities will already be locked for that battle.

If you can't road map that encounter out with those tools, it's not the game's fault.

Can't road map? Please. The question would be if I would bother or not.

[durasteel]

The only thing it's going to challenge, barring maybe dragons, is my patience, setting up the skills and tactics any time I have to do it beyond leveling up, and knowing I'm getting to a boss fight, where I'd likely make adjustments anyway.

 

At a minimum, it adds 2 annoying steps to levelling up your character and companions once you reach the 8 ability cap. First, you have to decide if a new ability is worth taking if you have to give another one up to get it, then you have to rearrange you toolbars.

 

At a maximum, you'll have to prepare an enemy-appropriate loadout for your team every time you change enemy types, and if you get thrown a curveball with an unexpected type of boss, you'd better hope you quick-saved before you triggered the fight.

 

Nothing about this makes the actual fights more challenging. If you fail once, you just have to adjust your loadout to correct the problem. The challenge isn't in the fight itself or in the enemy you're facing, the 8 slot limit is only a "meta" challenge that really just gets in the way.

[Zanallen]

Thats not tactful. Thats just tedious labor that is unneeded. If you can't see the mobs or bosses weakpoints, then its a matter of trial an error, which in this particular case, is no dependent on players skill, which is frustrating in a bad way.

 

Or Bioware could give you access to scouts that give you information on the areas you are going to be fighting in. Which it seems like they are going to be doing. Or perhaps you'll be in an area with a lot of walls and potential choke points so you'll want to set skills that allow for position management. However, perhaps the next area is a big open space and there is no way to effectively funnel enemies. Maybe you'll switch out skills for stuns or other CC abilities or maybe you'll go for straight damage and try to power through quickly.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

fewer abilities means there is less combinations of them.

and it means

* either battles are designed to be conventional and somewhat ME-ish (i'd assume devided by groups - attacks, their range, immunities, number and strength or avialable abilities). and that would mean 5-10 minute intervals between battles, cuz hey - i need to prepare skills for that specific encounter

* or they are even more generic and you can own mobs with the one set of abilities, cuz they are evenly devided between roles - tank, dps and cc-er. that would enforce the usage of cross-class combos and explain the focus mechanics a bit

 

whilst i cannot say for the melee classes, that is quite a downer for mages - being the most fun of avialable classes in DA:O (well, for me at least) - from blood magic (mind control aka create your own tank) to cc aoe and burst dmg. 

 

it's not an outrage. it's just another tiny thing. alone - it doesn't matter much, but a handfull of those annoying little thingies becomes a serious issue.

some people like to play games, have romances and see pretty cut-scenes, others have fun polishing tactics and making every encounter flawless, others consider walkthroughs abominable things, like figuring things on their own - and get bored if there is nothing to figure out.

[AlanC9]

First, you have to decide if a new ability is worth taking if you have to give another one up to get it, then you have to rearrange you toolbars.

That's not very accurate. It's not that we'll be giving up one ability once we get the 9th ability, it's that from that point on abilities won't be used 100% of the time -- unless the new ability really does make one of the older ones obsolete in all foreseeable circumstances
 

At a maximum, you'll have to prepare an enemy-appropriate loadout for your team every time you change enemy types, and if you get thrown a curveball with an unexpected type of boss, you'd better hope you quick-saved before you triggered the fight.

Wouldn't a competent player be able to handle curveballs?

[seraphymon]

Or Bioware could give you access to scouts that give you information on the areas you are going to be fighting in. Which it seems like they are going to be doing. Or perhaps you'll be in an area with a lot of walls and potential choke points so you'll want to set skills that allow for position management. However, perhaps the next area is a big open space and there is no way to effectively funnel enemies. Maybe you'll switch out skills for stuns or other CC abilities or maybe you'll go for straight damage and try to power through quickly.

Again, that tedious switching is a problem even if you know what your getting into. Bioware has said this wouldn't be the case where you need to constantly switch. But then why do it at all, even if its sparingly?  To me this is just BS PR talk like normal in order to cover it up for some lame reason and it contradicts with player choice and or freedom, since ithis decision limits combat even beyond DA2.

[durasteel]

That's not very accurate. It's not that we'll be giving up one ability once we get the 9th ability, it's that from that point on abilities won't be used 100% of the time -- unless the new ability really does make one of the older ones obsolete in all foreseeable circumstances
 

Wouldn't a competent player be able to handle curveballs?

 

Depends on how far it curves, Alan.

 

Also, how tough the boss is in its own right, and where you've set the difficulty.

[robertthebard]

Right. I still say that by the time you can use the tool tips it'll be too late. Your combat abilities will already be locked for that battle.


Can't road map? Please. The question would be if I would bother or not.

Then what was the point of scouting it again? Isn't there a video that has a scout reporting on what's ahead when you zone into an area? Any capable rogue should be able to sneak up a hill, or down the road a bit to get a look at what's ahead, aren't we supposed to be being more "tactical"?

...and yea, isn't it going to be exciting, all the challenging gameplay you're going to get because you only have 8 skills on the bar?

At a minimum, it adds 2 annoying steps to levelling up your character and companions once you reach the 8 ability cap. First, you have to decide if a new ability is worth taking if you have to give another one up to get it, then you have to rearrange you toolbars.
 
At a maximum, you'll have to prepare an enemy-appropriate loadout for your team every time you change enemy types, and if you get thrown a curveball with an unexpected type of boss, you'd better hope you quick-saved before you triggered the fight.
 
Nothing about this makes the actual fights more challenging. If you fail once, you just have to adjust your loadout to correct the problem. The challenge isn't in the fight itself or in the enemy you're facing, the 8 slot limit is only a "meta" challenge that really just gets in the way.

I level up my skills and tactics every time I level up, barring maybe 1-4, where it's "is your health low, maybe drink a potion?"... Not a whole lot to do there, depending on what group format I'm running; mage or no mage etc etc. The whole point to all of this, for me, with tooltips that tell you how to set up your party in advance, is that it won't be challenging, at all. Except maybe dragons... There's no real way I can see any of the regular combat presenting any kind of challenge at all, with all the information we have going in, it's the time to readjust everything any time the situation may call for it that's bothering me more than anything else. I don't anticipate anything but some boss fights and dragons being anything like hard. They certainly weren't in the previous installments.

[addiction21]

Almost 0?  Who is not being realistic?

 

You are because the User Interface =/= gameplay.

[Zanallen]

Again, that tedious switching is a problem even if you know what your getting into. Bioware has said this wouldn't be the case where you need to constantly switch. But then why do it at all, even if its sparingly?  To me this is just BS PR talk like normal in order to cover it up for some lame reason and it contradicts with player choice and or freedom, since ithis decision limits combat even beyond DA2.

 

I highly doubt there is going to be much switching at all. Judging by the level cap and the skill trees so far, most characters will only have ten to twelve skills anyway. Fifteen if you don't bother to upgrade anything.

[addiction21]

I suspect that for me the challenge be in running into a new group of mooks and dying because my mage is using fire and ice spells, and those enemies are resistant to fire and ice spells, so I have to change it up to electricity and earth or something, then test if that works. It's trial-and-error combat.

 

What about the three other people in your party?
 

[robertthebard]

That's not very accurate. It's not that we'll be giving up one ability once we get the 9th ability, it's that from that point on abilities won't be used 100% of the time -- unless the new ability really does make one of the older ones obsolete in all foreseeable circumstances
 

Wouldn't a competent player be able to handle curveballs?

Sure. The problem is, what if it's immune to the majority of what you have going on? Have you been icing things up, and this encounter throws an ice immune critter, and with your heals and CCs, you don't have enough room for fire, so guess what, your competence doesn't matter, you can't switch to a different bar to adjust for the curve ball. If the rest of your party can't deal with it, hard to say how that's going to come out, one way or another, with what we don't know about the skill trees, you're hitting the reload button. Basic encounters are going to be snoozeworthy, as always. Any fight that throws you a curve, which the only real way to do that would be a miniboss that's immune to what you've been using to that point, that springs out of the rift or something, and you can't adapt. You're locked in to whatever you're using, and if it's ineffective, is it going to be because your bad, or because the game artificially limited what you can do?

[Dunbartacus]

Sure. The problem is, what if it's immune to the majority of what you have going on? Have you been icing things up, and this encounter throws an ice immune critter, and with your heals and CCs, you don't have enough room for fire, so guess what, your competence doesn't matter, you can't switch to a different bar to adjust for the curve ball. If the rest of your party can't deal with it, hard to say how that's going to come out, one way or another, with what we don't know about the skill trees, you're hitting the reload button. Basic encounters are going to be snoozeworthy, as always. Any fight that throws you a curve, which the only real way to do that would be a miniboss that's immune to what you've been using to that point, that springs out of the rift or something, and you can't adapt. You're locked in to whatever you're using, and if it's ineffective, is it going to be because your bad, or because the game artificially limited what you can do?

That shouldn't be a problem as the rest of your party should have other types of dmg to compensate. 

[robertthebard]

That shouldn't be a problem as the rest of your party should have other types of dmg to compensate.

Again, should have, and I covered that in my post. We don't know what the situation will be, we can only speculate, but if the game's going to throw a curve ball, I'm going for a curve ball, not a slider. As it stands right now in the first two installments, I can switch what I'm doing on the fly, by simply sliding my hand a bit to the right, or left, depending on which hand, and change my whole strategy, because the skills are there to do it. If you forgot those skills, because you're in combat, and can't change the hot bar they're unavailable, forgot them is as good a reason as any, then you can't adapt. If you can't adapt, you're likely going to die. Short of seeing how the skills are set up to see what we can or can't do, all of us, positive and negative are speculating and making assumptions.

[AlanC9]

Sure. The problem is, what if it's immune to the majority of what you have going on? Have you been icing things up, and this encounter throws an ice immune critter, and with your heals and CCs, you don't have enough room for fire, so guess what, your competence doesn't matter, you can't switch to a different bar to adjust for the curve ball. If the rest of your party can't deal with it, hard to say how that's going to come out, one way or another, with what we don't know about the skill trees, you're hitting the reload button. Basic encounters are going to be snoozeworthy, as always. Any fight that throws you a curve, which the only real way to do that would be a miniboss that's immune to what you've been using to that point, that springs out of the rift or something, and you can't adapt. You're locked in to whatever you're using, and if it's ineffective, is it going to be because your bad, or because the game artificially limited what you can do?

It would be because you're bad. Sure, you can whine that you couldn't win that battle because you didn't have access to all the abilities, but that's the exact same thing as whining that you couldn't win a DAO battle because abilities have cooldowns. Your job is to win with the tools that the game expects you to have, not the tools you'd like to have. If your party falls apart the first time you run into an ice-immune enemy, you are a fool and you deserve to reload.

Unless you're assuming that Bio would set up a bunch of fights that require very specific builds that a player couldn't know he'd need in advance. I suppose they could, but why would they?

[tmp7704]

Nothing about this makes the actual fights more challenging.

What actually can make the fights more challenging is, the cap on how many abilities you have equipped at once may prevent the characters(s) from running around with large amount of both damage dealing and crowd control abilities at the same time, which would effectively allow them to side-step limits set by skill cooldowns. Instead of just stunning/freezing/knocking down everything the player may be forced to actually choose which targets they want to temporarily take out of the fight, as well as when to do it. This can also make positioning (choke points etc) matter, like they were trying to show in one of the gameplay videos. Something which, let be honest, there was little to no reason to bother with in the previous installments.