820 réponses à ce sujet

[Hibernating]

Every ability unlocked on a character is a result of spending AP. AP are limited, I can't unlock all abilities, so ones I do unlock are hand-picked. I chose them, because they suit my playstyle, help my party. I can choose to get more abilities, leaving some unupgraded. I can choose to keep my selection smaller, with each individual ability being stronger instead. I can make different choices, some might be suboptimal, but they are all mine. There's freedom in this.

Then there's UI restriction, and it says: "You can make choices, but some of them are wrong, and I'll hit you in the head every time you make them". That's not "design goals". Not "encouragement of certain strategy". It's downright dev tyranny. "We don't want you to play this way anymore, so we'll prohibit you to play this way from this point".

I might be getting dramatic here, but the main statement is this. I spent AP on those abilities, chose them from a very limited number, and I want to have access to those abilities whenever I please, "design goals" and "artistic integrity" be damned. If I want to be jack of all trades, master of none, the game should let me. I don't care if it's suboptimal, I can and want to make these choices for myself.

Then wait for a mod to come out, because its not happening in DA:I vanilla.

[Kharn-ivor]

Well emotions run high around here.

The number of total and combat available abilities in a game is a fairly complex balance in design (although less so for SP games).

I think some people might be confusing complexity with depth and although some complexity technically helps acheive greater depth it can also limit it .Basically more stuff isn't allways better.

The problem with adding a million skills etc is that they don't give you choice, they are just math problems,thats why a lot of games end up with one or two best builds. Mmos are pretty guilty of this.

 

As for examples Diablo only has a few skills avaiable at any one time(6 I think), Skyrim has loads of skils but most are similar and the combat is pretty poor to be honest.

 

All in all, the number of UI buttons tells you nothing about a games choices or depth.

[RedWulfi]

I still cant believe people are cancelling their orders because of this minor change.

That has no effect on the story what so ever.

[robertthebard]

What actually can make the fights more challenging is, the cap on how many abilities you have equipped at once may prevent the characters(s) from running around with large amount of both damage dealing and crowd control abilities at the same time, which would effectively allow them to side-step limits set by skill cooldowns. Instead of just stunning/freezing/knocking down everything the player may be forced to actually choose which targets they want to temporarily take out of the fight, as well as when to do it. This can also make positioning (choke points etc) matter, like they were trying to show in one of the gameplay videos. Something which, let be honest, there was little to no reason to bother with in the previous installments.

Hmm, seemed to have missed this one the first time. How, exactly, would that work, and why, exactly, would it be desireable? Especially in the context of a SP game? However, flaw to your logic: Inq mage/party mage. Considering a specialist build will likely be wasted since we can't swap to a different tactic in combat, both will be generalists to minimize the amount of time spent revamping skills and tactics. Two generalist mages in the party means I have a greater chance of being able to overcome cooldowns via cc, not less. It's a tactic used in raids now: Chain CC. Since it would be foolish to try to specialize in a school, especially on the Inquisitor, where specializing could mean that you spend part of the game completely ineffective on a character you can't leave at the base, an Inq mage with a mage comp, both generalists, would be able to keep the same CC ability active through an entire fight, depending on the length of the cooldowns.
 
 

Given those numbers, Dragon Age: Inquisition will have more activated abilities then Dragon Age 2 had.
 
In fact, it will average 26~ per class+specialization, as opposed to 21~ that you would have available to you there.
 
 
Is the red text meant to give credence to your post, to make you sound more severe? Because you certainly cannot be taken seriously, superfluous formatting or otherwise.

So you're fine with only having 1/3 or less of your trained abilities available for use at any given time. My, it is getting easier and easier to please the BSN, must be something in the Kool-Aid.
 
 

Or until Bioware decides that modding your DA:I is a bannable offense.

For MP, it definitely will be, unless they don't have enough people playing it to justify leaving it up. I haven't been over to the MP forums to see what the temp is for it, because it wasn't something I was really interested in.
 
 

In consoles we had the radial menu where we could use any ability, so that's not true.

I'm glad you brought this up, again. It's like the rallying cry for "It's not the console's fault". Up until a few minutes ago, I would have been inclined to agree, but then I remembered: They took the radial menu out, meaning you no longer have access to those skills via the radial menu, and look: PC UI limited to 8 skills. Now I was just looking, because I was thinking "couldn't they get 16 then, with the hat switch", but then I remembered, that's probably reserved for potions and such. So do keep going on about how you could do what with the radial menu that, as soon as it's out, so are expandable quick slots on PC.
 
 

32 Abilities are enough for me, cooldown's will undoubtedly be such that it wont matter. 

Personally I like the 8 abilities per person, it will force you to use your teammates which is not something you had to do at all in previous games. And your options haven't shrunk, from the screenshots we have it looks like there's more to choose from than DA2. Its just that you will have to be more specialised.

People used their party, forced or not, or those cross class combos that are posted everywhere when you look for guides to tactics etc for DA 2 wouldn't come up. There can be no cross class combos for a solo player. You will not want to be specialized, ever. You will want to be as generalist as possible, if you don't want to spend as much time redoing party skills and tactics as you do mowing through random encounters. There won't be any uber Fire Mages, there will be Sally Sue, the just slightly better than average Generalist Mage, so that she can be prepared for whatever might happen next. My options have shrunk a great deal from end game to end game to end game, because when it counts, when I'm actually having to use those abilities you're gushing about, we'll only have 8.

[Hibernating]

 

People used their party, forced or not, or those cross class combos that are posted everywhere when you look for guides to tactics etc for DA 2 wouldn't come up. There can be no cross class combos for a solo player. You will not want to be specialized, ever. You will want to be as generalist as possible, if you don't want to spend as much time redoing party skills and tactics as you do mowing through random encounters. There won't be any uber Fire Mages, there will be Sally Sue, the just slightly better than average Generalist Mage, so that she can be prepared for whatever might happen next. My options have shrunk a great deal from end game to end game to end game, because when it counts, when I'm actually having to use those abilities you're gushing about, we'll only have 8.

how many did you actually use in DA2? I just counted and as a Mage I used 11 and I never felt limited. I don't really understand what your saying, why is there an assumption that your spells will suddenly be made redundant in some situations? I'm planning on going "uber Fire Mage" and on the very odd encounter where fire doesn't work ill use something from another tree?

How about instead of moaning about it, your wait to see how it works in game before making up your mind?

[LexXxich]

I still cant believe people are cancelling their orders because of this minor change.

Because it's the last straw. For me it was the question of: "Is BW showing enough good things to make me believe them after DA2 and ME3?". Some news made me more interested in the game, some less, and this one is the one that put the answer strictly into "wait for mods and discounts" sector. I'm still a fan of DA-verse, but I don't want to be a battered wife, and I wish to have my voice and my reasoning heard. No better way to achieve that than post on forums and avoid buying the game.

[pdusen]

I still cant believe people are cancelling their orders because of this minor change.
That has no effect on the story what so ever.

Don't believe it, because most of them aren't. Even most of the extremely vocal complainers in here will still end up preordering.

[robertthebard]

I still cant believe people are cancelling their orders because of this minor change.
That has no effect on the story what so ever.

To you, it doesn't. To them, it may, or, it may be that this isn't the main reason, but the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe they feel that, after ME 3 and DA 2, they've had enough of bad design choices, and haven't seen anything that redeemed their faith? What I can't believe, in reality, is the audacity of people that tell others what they should or shouldn't be ok with. Well, actually, that's a lie, this is BSN, I expect it. I was expected to hate ME 3, even though, in reality, the only part I hated was the last 15 minutes or so. I was expected to hate DA 2, but the reality was, I really disliked the recycled environments, and I really hated the "hey look, two boss fights instead of one, no matter who you side with", even though I can see why it had to go down that way, for the most part. When I didn't do these things, I was a fanboi, or worse. Now look, a game that essentially has the Prima guide built right in is supposed to be more tactical...

[Hibernating]

Because it's the last straw. For me it was the question of: "Is BW showing enough good things to make me believe them after DA2 and ME3?". Some news made me more interested in the game, some less, and this one is the one that put the answer strictly into "wait for mods and discounts" sector. I'm still a fan of DA-verse, but I don't want to be a battered wife, and I wish to have my voice and my reasoning heard. No better way to achieve that than post on forums and avoid buying the game.

But they're not going to listen to you? if you're willing to dismiss something before trying it then I can't imagine how your imput effects them. You ARE on the other hand, obviously now apprehensive about this game so its a good idea not to pre-order it. One should never pre-order games one is unsure about.

[mugwuffin1986]

Every ability unlocked on a character is a result of spending AP. AP are limited, I can't unlock all abilities, so ones I do unlock are hand-picked. I chose them, because they suit my playstyle, help my party. I can choose to get more abilities, leaving some unupgraded. I can choose to keep my selection smaller, with each individual ability being stronger instead. I can make different choices, some might be suboptimal, but they are all mine. There's freedom in this.

Then there's UI restriction, and it says: "You can make choices, but some of them are wrong, and I'll hit you in the head every time you make them". That's not "design goals". Not "encouragement of certain strategy". It's downright dev tyranny. "We don't want you to play this way anymore, so we'll prohibit you to play this way from this point".

I might be getting dramatic here, but the main statement is this. I spent AP on those abilities, chose them from a very limited number, and I want to have access to those abilities whenever I please, "design goals" and "artistic integrity" be damned. If I want to be jack of all trades, master of none, the game should let me. I don't care if it's suboptimal, I can and want to make these choices for myself.

 

If you want to have various abilities from different trees, you still can.

 

If you wish to run a Mage with all first talent abilities, you still can.

 

If you want to play the game completely against its established rules... then by all means go ahead and do so, but don't expect to have a good time doing it.

 

The new design philosophy is clear... a focus on companion synergy, more of a focus on using the party, tactical decisions concerning what to abilities use in a particular situation (Such as the weakness/resistance mechanic) and a lack of emphasis on hording abilities for a jack of all trades approach. Throw in the old tactics system, the new "focus" mechanic as well as the new healing/support mechanics and you have fresh focus for the combat in DA.

 

They've changed the approach to combat in DA:I, they want us to see the party as one unit. We have 32 spells across 4 companions... build a good party and you'll be equipped for any situation. It's clear a lot of people around here don't use the party to it's fullest extent and this is clearly a push to remedy that.

 

Mike Laidlaw even mentioned recently they want players to be more methodical in their approach to the combat, it's unfortunate people don't seem to have faith in the new system. Especially since the game hasn't even released for them to try it.

 

As for your "Artistic Integrity" comment, there's nothing wrong with having a vision for something and following through with it.

 

But people are so very afraid of change... so this is to be expected.

[robertthebard]

how many did you actually use in DA2? I just counted and as a Mage I used 11 and I never felt limited. I don't really understand what your saying, why is there an assumption that your spells will suddenly be made redundant in some situations? I'm planning on going "uber Fire Mage" and on the very odd encounter where fire doesn't work ill use something from another tree?

How about instead of moaning about it, your wait to see how it works in game before making up your mind?

Because I've seen how the UI works, and the twitter posts indicating that that is indeed what's intended. What you mean to say is, when your uber fire mage is worthless, you'll reload and switch to an uber ice mage, right? You won't be doing a lot of switching on the fly, since you can't. 8 skills, no changing them during combat, so your uber xxxx mage? Wasted skill points.

But let's look at how a generalist will work, so that you have a couple that hit hard, and some that do anything at all:

2 fire, 2 cold, 2 earth, 2 healing? Well, there's no room for CC here, well, maybe the cold skills, maybe one of them will have some kind of CC, I think we saw a wall, right. But what happens if they're immune to cold, will the CC effects still apply? I imagine the wall will still block, until their warrior bashes it with his shield and breaks it. Hmm, maybe there's some CC in the Earth Tree, if there even is one? I just kinda made it up, since I don't remember the other trees off the top of my head. Well, I guess I should throw a glyph down, oh, wait, I don't know any glyphs for this version of the fight, because the game in no way limits what I can or can't do... Switch to the other mage, if there is one, if not, you're CCing by killing faster, you hope, but essentially, you have 2 of your 8 hot bars filled with skills that it makes no sense whatsoever to use, because the mobs are immune to them, and for some reason, they're not vulnerable to anything you have, damn that taking healing skills, I could have had more offense...

"But Rob, that's exactly what they were going for, you know, making sure you were tactical enough to read the ingame Prima guide to prevent that from happening". Yeah, I imagine, by the end of the game, a lot of us are going to be really good at resetting skills and tactics in the field, or we'll become really proficient at building average characters.

[Star fury]

So the only game you have ever paid full price for was gary's mod?

How about you all calm down and see what its actually like before you blow a fuse.

I said that to sceptics before DA2 and especially ME3. Looks like they were right and I was wrong.

[Hibernating]

Because I've seen how the UI works, and the twitter posts indicating that that is indeed what's intended. What you mean to say is, when your uber fire mage is worthless, you'll reload and switch to an uber ice mage, right? You won't be doing a lot of switching on the fly, since you can't. 8 skills, no changing them during combat, so your uber xxxx mage? Wasted skill points.

But let's look at how a generalist will work, so that you have a couple that hit hard, and some that do anything at all:

2 fire, 2 cold, 2 earth, 2 healing? Well, there's no room for CC here, well, maybe the cold skills, maybe one of them will have some kind of CC, I think we saw a wall, right. But what happens if they're immune to cold, will the CC effects still apply? I imagine the wall will still block, until their warrior bashes it with his shield and breaks it. Hmm, maybe there's some CC in the Earth Tree, if there even is one? I just kinda made it up, since I don't remember the other trees off the top of my head. Well, I guess I should throw a glyph down, oh, wait, I don't know any glyphs for this version of the fight, because the game in no way limits what I can or can't do... Switch to the other mage, if there is one, if not, you're CCing by killing faster, you hope, but essentially, you have 2 of your 8 hot bars filled with skills that it makes no sense whatsoever to use, because the mobs are immune to them, and for some reason, they're not vulnerable to anything you have, damn that taking healing skills, I could have had more offense...

"But Rob, that's exactly what they were going for, you know, making sure you were tactical enough to read the ingame Prima guide to prevent that from happening". Yeah, I imagine, by the end of the game, a lot of us are going to be really good at resetting skills and tactics in the field, or we'll become really proficient at building average characters.

errr, No? Theres 5 Fire abilities so ill probably run around with 4 of them, then the remaining 3 will be frost/specialisation of which I know nothing so cant make a choice and final will be whatever dodge/roll mages have, if they have one. Bases covered, cc had and damage for every situation.

AND since I plan on my default party being 2 mages, warrior, rogue ill probably have a whole OTHER mage for spirit/other! isn't it exciting. Ill have spells for days to choose from.

[Hibernating]

I said that to sceptics before DA2 and especially ME3. Looks like they were right and I was wrong.

 

You were still right, they just became right to get mad about things they disliked after they actually experienced them, or saw them in action.

[robertthebard]

If you want to have various abilities from different trees, you still can.
 
If you wish to run a Mage with all first talent abilities, you still can.
 
If you want to play the game completely against its established rules... then by all means go ahead and do so, but don't expect to have a good time doing it.
 
The new design philosophy is clear... a focus on companion synergy, more of a focus on using the party, tactical decisions concerning what to abilities use in a particular situation (Such as the weakness/resistance mechanic) and a lack of emphasis on hording abilities for a jack of all trades approach. Throw in the old tactics system, the new "focus" mechanic as well as the new healing/support mechanics and you have fresh focus for the combat in DA.
 
They've changed the approach to combat in DA:I, they want us to see the party as one unit. We have 32 spells across 4 companions... build a good party and you'll be equipped for any situation. It's clear a lot of people around here don't use the party to it's fullest extent and this is clearly a push to remedy that.
 
Mike Laidlaw even mentioned recently they want players to be more methodical in their approach to the combat, it's unfortunate people don't seem to have faith in the new system. Especially since the game hasn't even released for them to try it.
 
As for your "Artistic Integrity" comment, there's nothing wrong with having a vision for something and following through with it.
 
But people are so very afraid of change... so this is to be expected.

So there were no cross class combos in DA 2, I see. It's not going to be more methodical, except in MP, where they made these decisions in the first place. In MP, you don't have to swap any skills but your own, and there are not tactics menus to fix when you redo the skills on the bar. Hence we have this "outstanding" decision to limit what the players can do based on "Well, it worked great in MP". I imagine it did, considering you can only use 4 skills in MP, some of the side effects of their changes would have never presented themselves, and they won't be present in gameplay videos either, since they know what they're going up against and don't have to respect talent trees at all, instead just cherry picking skills to make the combat look exciting. I'm sure some of the supporters of this change are going to have a great time pushing 2 or 3 buttons repeatedly in combat, and they'll probably be asking for macros, so they only have to push one. For myself, I was looking for combat to be more interesting, but I guess we can't all get what we want, and as some on MMO forums are wont to point out: The game isn't built for the 1% elite players, it's built for the average player, and frankly, looking at the builds that are going to be able to carry the day w/out a lot of building and rebuilding before fights, building for average is going to be the way to go.

[mugwuffin1986]

I said that to sceptics before DA2 and especially ME3. Looks like they were right and I was wrong.

 

DA2 was rushed out the door by EA(it had a 16 month dev time, when most have 24 minimum/36 max.) and ME3 was made by an entirely different team.

 

DA:I has had a full 3 year+ dev time, can it still be a bad game... sure.

[robertthebard]

errr, No? Theres 5 Fire abilities so ill probably run around with 4 of them, then the remaining 3 will be frost/specialisation of which I know nothing so cant make a choice and final will be whatever dodge/roll mages have, if they have one. Bases covered, cc had and damage for every situation.

AND since I plan on my default party being 2 mages, warrior, rogue ill probably have a whole OTHER mage for spirit/other! isn't it exciting. Ill have spells for days to choose from.

You're already screwed, you've listed 9 things you're going to have on your 8 hot bars. Good luck with that mage there, mate.

[EnduinRaylene]

Well emotions run high around here.

The number of total and combat available abilities in a game is a fairly complex balance in design (although less so for SP games).

I think some people might be confusing complexity with depth and although some complexity technically helps acheive greater depth it can also limit it .Basically more stuff isn't allways better.

The problem with adding a million skills etc is that they don't give you choice, they are just math problems,thats why a lot of games end up with one or two best builds. Mmos are pretty guilty of this.

 

As for examples Diablo only has a few skills avaiable at any one time(6 I think), Skyrim has loads of skils but most are similar and the combat is pretty poor to be honest.

 

All in all, the number of UI buttons tells you nothing about a games choices or depth.

I think a lot of people are conflating quantity with quality, or at least ignoring the other side/possibilities, which certainly isn't always the case. If the depth of each ability is greater than what was present in DAO and DA2 then that could make up for the fact that we are limited to 8 at one time. While having options is always good, more isn't inherently better if the quality of those options aren't as good as the the other technically fewer options.

 

For example DAO had like 64 spells across all schools and specializations, but only about a 1/3 of them were able to combine with one another to create spell combinations, of which there were 10 total. Now DA2 comes along and only has 34 active spells, nearly half that of DAO, but while the spell count is lower they introduced CCCs which brought about three enemy states of Brittle, Stagger and Disorient. These three states allowed for the combination of 34 abilities across all 3 classes. So while there was less overall number of total combinations states, just 3 compared to 10, there was a significant increase in the variations of the combos, chances to initiate those combos and scenarios that those combos were useful. So while the over all choices of combos went from 10 spell combos to 3 exploitable enemy states the actual number of choices increased significantly due to the greater depth and chance of initiating those combos.

 

Now in DA2 there were a total of 84 active abilities and spells, so 50 of them(not all were actual attacks of any kind but other abilities like Rally or Heal) were not used in CCCs. By all accounts DAI should have at least the same amount of active abilities if not more than DA2, but if they introduce more CCC combo states beyond Brittle, Stagger and Distorient, and and utilize more of the abilities we have in initiating and carrying out those combos then despite the fact that we will only have 8 active abilities at any one time, we could technically have more variation in our combat due to the greater versatility and depth of those individual abilities when used in combination with one another.

 

It's certainly not definite that this is the case, but again, from what we've seen it's certainly possible. We've seen effects like Fear, Burning and Chill in combat vids, along with specific combo references like the Eldritch Detonator or getting serious damage bonuses to knocked down enemies. If they have added more enemy states that allow for new combos and exploits, or simply more chances for combos than previously, then we may in fact have more choices in combat, despite the 8 ability limit. Admittedly this is a different kind of depth, some people don't care so much about the versatility of individual abilities or spells and prefer depth via breadth and the ability to have on character take on many different roles, which obviously the overall limit of abilities gained and the 8 ability slot limit discourages. Can't really help them out, that's not the direction BioWare appears to be going with in this game.

 

I would very much like to see some new vids from BioWare showing off this aspect of combat. A PC demo giving a quick rundown of the UI and menus and then maybe a look a leveling up and ability progression, ending with some combat encounters would be ideal.

[durasteel]

...

How about instead of moaning about it, your wait to see how it works in game before making up your mind?

 

Yeah, that's worked so well before...

[Hibernating]

You're already screwed, you've listed 9 things you're going to have on your 8 hot bars. Good luck with that mage there, mate.

4+3+1 = 8? I know maths is hard mate but come on

[Nohvarr]

I still cant believe people are cancelling their orders because of this minor change.

That has no effect on the story what so ever.

People cancel pre-orders all the time around here, don't let it bother you. Honestly I'd rather the most skeptical people hold off, that way if the game is not what they want they've lost nothing but the time on this forum, and if it is what they want, it's easily purchased after release.

[mugwuffin1986]

So there were no cross class combos in DA 2, I see. It's not going to be more methodical, except in MP, where they made these decisions in the first place. In MP, you don't have to swap any skills but your own, and there are not tactics menus to fix when you redo the skills on the bar. Hence we have this "outstanding" decision to limit what the players can do based on "Well, it worked great in MP". I imagine it did, considering you can only use 4 skills in MP, some of the side effects of their changes would have never presented themselves, and they won't be present in gameplay videos either, since they know what they're going up against and don't have to respect talent trees at all, instead just cherry picking skills to make the combat look exciting. I'm sure some of the supporters of this change are going to have a great time pushing 2 or 3 buttons repeatedly in combat, and they'll probably be asking for macros, so they only have to push one. For myself, I was looking for combat to be more interesting, but I guess we can't all get what we want, and as some on MMO forums are wont to point out: The game isn't built for the 1% elite players, it's built for the average player, and frankly, looking at the builds that are going to be able to carry the day w/out a lot of building and rebuilding before fights, building for average is going to be the way to go.

 

I think we got into this exact discussion the other day...

 

This isn't an MMO you shouldn't expect the same design principles and the multiplayer will clearly have different priorities when it comes to the combat.

 

Also you seem to be assuming when they were play testing the single player combat in the multiplayer builds that they did so with 4 abilities... you really seem to have a massively low opinion of these developers.

 

As for your difficulty remarks... have you played it on the hardest difficulty, do you know how difficult the game will be? No. The game isn't out.

[robertthebard]

4+3+1 = 8? I know maths is hard mate but come on

Yep, I did miss the so I'll run with 4 part, my bad. Isn't going to be fun to have one half of a character in your group all the time though? Especially when it's the uber fire mage. The upside is, it's not an MMO, so your party members won't be grumbling about you leeching off of them for the entire instance. You have the added benefit of they can't vote kick you for being useless, when it comes up.

[rupok93]

I am thinking maybe there is multiple states for each ability? It could be a possibility, I remember seeing the 2h warrior charge one of his abilities, so maybe there is charged and uncharged version of each ability. For example you hold down the button for the ability and it does an aoe attack and if you just click it does a normal attack. It could work differently than that.

 

Who knows but its probably unlikely but I hope that is what it is.

[Hibernating]

Yep, I did miss the so I'll run with 4 part, my bad. Isn't going to be fun to have one half of a character in your group all the time though? Especially when it's the uber fire mage. The upside is, it's not an MMO, so your party members won't be grumbling about you leeching off of them for the entire instance. You have the added benefit of they can't vote kick you for being useless, when it comes up.

I still don't get what your saying, off the top of my head the only thing I can think of that was immune to fire damage in the entire playthrough of DA2 was Rage demons on Nightmare. Nothing was resistant or immune to fire on Normal or Hard, why are you suddenly assuming that every single encounter will require a certain type of damage to win it?