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First Look at the PC UI for DAI - Take II


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#651
Jimbo_Gee79

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Not gonna bother, I don't care anymore. All I wanted was for people to ask questions in the first place and for the devs to clarify the change in detail because all they did was post a few tweets. All the tweets clarified is that "we made the change we know some people won't like it but not gonna explain why, we made the change for something vague like gameplay".

 

They did clarify why they made that decision. You're not reading stuff properly. All you can hear in your head is 8 skill slots.  You don't agree with it. We get it.



#652
robertthebard

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Again there are several gameplay demos that are unedited, they're straight run throughs and not all of them are conducted by BioWare but by fans and journalists. It's likely not even a question that the difficultly is low, BioWare said as much during E3 that it was on easy, and most likely the health and damage values aren't final, but they are still designed to demonstrate how the gameplay works and an approximate of what it feels like. All game demos do that. I have never said that anyone should just trust BioWare, they've made some bad missteps in the last few games and I want as many answers as the next person, but I find nothing constructive about baseless attacks and outrage over changes like the 8 ability slots. What I do ask for is that people actually try to critique intelligently based on what we actually know and use that to try and create a better picture of things so we can better understand the decisions that are being made in lieu of answers from BioWare.
 
If you really think these demos are lies and that BioWare is altering how combat really works so much then I don't know what to say, you're entering a realm of such extreme conspiracy that there's really no discussion that be had since we can't even agree upon what information we do have at our disposal is actually valid and not just a facade.


Let me guess, you honestly believe they are playing the game to the points where they decide to show us what they want to show us? That's not how it works. They pick non-random encounters that can be triggered on either placeable triggers, or OnAreaEnter spawns, and run those. The characters they are using aren't necessarily the characters we will have, for testing purposes, they generally do have some sort of God Mode, where they can't die. It wouldn't make a really good video for Savior of the World, only to be eaten by a High Dragon, would it?

#653
EnduinRaylene

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Let me guess, you honestly believe they are playing the game to the points where they decide to show us what they want to show us? That's not how it works. They pick non-random encounters that can be triggered on either placeable triggers, or OnAreaEnter spawns, and run those. The characters they are using aren't necessarily the characters we will have, for testing purposes, they generally do have some sort of God Mode, where they can't die. It wouldn't make a really good video for Savior of the World, only to be eaten by a High Dragon, would it?

Obviously demos are skewed, you don't want people to die, or get overwhelmed by enemies. They are new to the game, they're placed into a random part of the game with no prior knowledge of the skills or abilities the party has. So they have to gear it towards allowing those people to pick it up and have some level of competency, but they are still meant to be representative of the final game. 

 

Once again if you really think that demos of this kind are pure fabrications that cannot be trusted, we are entering a realm of conspiracy and mistrust where nothing we know about the game can be trusted so there is no point in trying to discuss, let a lone understand anything.


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#654
robertthebard

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Yes there is a cut at 6:15 my mistake, one cut, but the Inquisitor's abilities are never altered. They're the same from start to finish. Two fire spells, two ice, stone fist, haste, lightening and whatever the middle purple three projectiles is.


What part of "the abilities on the second page at 12:50 are different than on the previous encounter" means they aren't changing abilities again? This is using the same video you provided, so your own evidence contradicts your statement. They did indeed change the abilities, and, we didn't see it happen, it's one way at 10:36, then a different way, and watching it again to be sure, at 12:22, the abilities on the second page are different. So when did they change them, if that's one continuous combat?

Edit: I'd also like to thank you for pointing me to this video, because it pretty much supports everything I've been saying about these changes. If we look at the skills on the main page of the Controller UI, when it's up, we'll see that my "generalist mage" is fairly well supported there. Then we see how the second page of abilities is different, meaning they changed them up, at some point, off camera, to support the fight they knew was coming. So thanks for providing a video that you'd hoped would make me look stupid and shut me up, but instead documented most of what I've been talking about.

#655
SetecAstronomy

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Not gonna bother, I don't care anymore. All I wanted was for people to ask questions in the first place and for the devs to clarify the change in detail because all they did was post a few tweets. All the tweets clarified is that "we made the change we know some people won't like it but not gonna explain why, we made the change for something vague like gameplay".

 

If you want the devs to take you seriously and respond to your concerns, you might start with learning how to properly use quotation, unless they literally said "...we made the change for something vague like gameplay." If they actually wrote that then I'll retract, but I

dunno...



#656
EnduinRaylene

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What part of "the abilities on the second page at 12:50 are different than on the previous encounter" means they aren't changing abilities again? This is using the same video you provided, so your own evidence contradicts your statement. They did indeed change the abilities, and, we didn't see it happen, it's one way at 10:36, then a different way, and watching it again to be sure, at 12:22, the abilities on the second page are different. So when did they change them, if that's one continuous combat?

The Inquisitor has the same 8 abilities the entire video. The abilities at 12:50 are Iron Bull's abilities, which we don't see before that point. The abilities shown at 10:36 are page1 of the Inquisitor's abilities, at 12:22 they are the second page. Both the exact same as they are in the beginning of the video at 2:00 and 4:04.


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#657
robertthebard

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The Inquisitor has the same 8 abilities the entire video. The abilities at 12:50 are Iron Bull's abilities, which we don't see before that point. The abilities shown at 10:36 are page1 of the Inquisitor's abilities, at 12:22 they are the second page. Both the exact same as they are in the beginning of the video at 2:00 and 4:04.


Ahh, *eats crow* so it was. /cry

#658
Dunbartacus

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You basically have 1 character that is completely useless. That never happened in past games.

You wouldn't even be completely useless in a combat containing only numerous rage demons which sounds really unlikely to me. here's a hypothetical you have 2 maybe 3 rage demons to dispatch along with assorted other demon type foes now you can have a total of 5 fire spells equipped now lets say you go into spirits supportive tree so thus the remaining three can be used to keep your party healthy while they focus down the rage demons and use your fire spells to burn the life out of the other demons less resistant to fire. 



#659
Hrungr

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A'koss @Megin_Akoss 

Just on the off-chance it's possible - Can we enlarge/shrink UI elements on the PC?

 

Mark Darrah @BioMarkDarrah

I don't think so



#660
robertthebard

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A'koss ‏@Megin_Akoss 
Just on the off-chance it's possible - Can we enlarge/shrink UI elements on the PC?
 
Mark Darrah ‏@BioMarkDarrah
I don't think so


At my age, depending on which monitor I'm running, this may be a good thing, so that I can actually see what's on there.

#661
pdusen

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It seems to me that the desperation some of you seem to have to defend every little design choice for this game reflects a deep insecurity about Inquisition. Perhaps another deeply flawed game in a row would force you to face your fears that there will never be another game as good as Knights of the Old Republic or Dragon Age: Origins from this studio? While that would indeed be a great tragedy, shouting down fan criticism (and I am certainly a fan of both the studio and the Dragon Age series) is probably the worst way to go about addressing your angst.

 

Uh... I'm not really sure why this response was directed at me, because I didn't state any opinion, or say anything about you at all. All I said was that most of the "preorder cancelled" crowd will still order the game, despite their endless ranting. That has been the case historically, and I see no evidence that it's going to change. 

 

As for me personally, I felt I got my money's worth out of DA2 and ME3, and based on what I've seen so far, I have no reason to think I will get any less out of DAI. I don't get hung up on ultimately minor things like the number of available action slots.

 

When the game comes out, I'll look at how it expects me to play, and then I'll evaluate at that point whether or not I like it.



#662
Sylvius the Mad

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DAO though had very simple loadloads that could clear and encounter. You didn't need 8 abilities to TPK the enemy.

Exactly. Given the 8 ability limit for Inquisition, I expect a similar design.

#663
DarthLaxian

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Exactly. Given the 8 ability limit for Inquisition, I expect a similar design.

 

That does not make it in any way better now, does it? - Or to say it otherwise:

 

It would be no excuse for a bad design-choice :(

 

greetings LAX



#664
Sylvius the Mad

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That does not make it in any way better now, does it? - Or to say it otherwise:

It would be no excuse for a bad design-choice :(

greetings LAX

I am looking for ways to mitigate its impact, mot excuse it.

#665
In Exile

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I really do think that UI is way bigger than it needs to be. Unless it's for a lower resolution screen, but the screenshot appears to be at 1920 x 1080?

edit: Also, since we can't have more than 8 abilities, it's a shame we couldn't bind some abilities of other characters to the quickbar for ease of access


You're absolutely right about the edit. That said, I much prefer this UI size to the old one - I hated how small my icons got when I was at 1920x1080.

#666
In Exile

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Exactly. Given the 8 ability limit for Inquisition, I expect a similar design.


I think it's more a failure on Bioware's part than a problem with the limit. We could imagine a system where 8 abilities are not enough - perhaps one where to defeat enemies only certain (but varied) combinations of high level abilities are necessary (e.g. one high level spell from each mage tree, meaning you need at least 2 mages to pull it off).

The issue here is the poor encounter design that Bioware seemingly always relies on.

#667
Hrungr

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You're absolutely right about the edit. That said, I much prefer this UI size to the old one - I hated how small my icons got when I was at 1920x1080.

 

After blowing up the screenshot to my monitor size, I personally find it a bit on the large size. I wouldn't mind seeing it ~15% smaller, especially the corner with the companions...



#668
In Exile

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After blowing up the screenshot to my monitor size, I personally find it a bit on the large size. I wouldn't mind seeing it ~15% smaller, especially corner with the companions...


UI size is a total YMMV. It just feels a bit more like the BG icons to me though so I don't mind it.

#669
Gtdef

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The only problem with the ui I see is the length of the health bars. Since we have overhead bars, having portrait ones as well seems excessive. Hopefully we can turn one of them off. Or just trim them. The health milestone bars offers no real function because the game isn't complex enough to need you to learn the relative damage you take from any kind of enemy. There is no concept of damage trading like in League of Legends that popularized the feature.

 

It was very situational in ME3, with some minor usefulness for snipers, but that's because it was on the enemy. It's completely useless on our characters.



#670
Sylvius the Mad

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You're absolutely right about the edit. That said, I much prefer this UI size to the old one - I hated how small my icons got when I was at 1920x1080.

I like the tiny icons. I play at 1920*1200, so I usually get small UI elements, but that's how I like it.
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#671
Peter_Stauffenberg

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The 8 abilities limit will only affect us at higher levels.  You need quite a few levels to actually fill the hotbar will abilities.

 

Could it also be that some of the abilities further down in the ability tree are actually stronger than the ones you can initially get.  I. e. meaning you don't want to carry the weakest ones when you have access to stronger abilities.  It's like not needing to cast fireball when you have access to meteor swarm or cure light wounds when you have access to heal.

 

I think we need to actually play the game before making our conclusions.

The user interface looks nice and clean in my opinion.  I won't have any problems playing with that.  The ability icons are easy to distinguish although they look a little cartoonish.  The same about companion icons. After a little playing I probably won't even bother anymore. :)



#672
Dunbartacus

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The 8 abilities limit will only affect us at higher levels.  You need quite a few levels to actually fill the hotbar will abilities.

 

Could it also be that some of the abilities further down in the ability tree are actually stronger than the ones you can initially get.  I. e. meaning you don't want to carry the weakest ones when you have access to stronger abilities.  It's like not needing to cast fireball when you have access to meteor swarm or cure light wounds when you have access to heal.

 

I think we need to actually play the game before making our conclusions.

I think the user interface looks nice and clean.  I won't have any problems playing with that.  The ability icons are easy to distinguish although they look a little cartoonish.  The same about companion icons. After a little playing I probably won't even bother anymore. :)

Looking at the ability trees that have been shown we could have 4 by lvl 3-4 and a full 8 somewhere between 12 and 15. Im hoping the abilities are designed to be unique and each can be very effective in certain varied situations.



#673
In Exile

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The only problem with the ui I see is the length of the health bars. Since we have overhead bars, having portrait ones as well seems excessive. Hopefully we can turn one of them off. Or just trim them. The health milestone bars offers no real function because the game isn't complex enough to need you to learn the relative damage you take from any kind of enemy. There is no concept of damage trading like in League of Legends that popularized the feature.

It was very situational in ME3, with some minor usefulness for snipers, but that's because it was on the enemy. It's completely useless on our characters.


I imagine the bars are there because of the way health will regent (or not). Knowing what your health cap will be seems useful to me.

#674
Hibernating

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The thing I'm most amazed about his never ending discussion is that there are people who play Bioware games for the combat. Bioware make amazing stories and that,s why I play them, Elder scrolls make rubbish stories but great worlds to explore, Borderlands do the best co-op experience, etc etc.

 

I imagine the bars are there because of the way health will regent (or not). Knowing what your health cap will be seems useful to me.

I imagine that's something you can toggle on and off and that was specifically turned on for this screenshot, since you can see his armor stats as well which is largely irrelevant. That and its the first we have seen of it despite all the gameplay demos



#675
PhroXenGold

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Personally, I'd say I'm cautiously optimistic about the 8 ability slots. I know they're not exactly the same type of game, but I find MMOs with such limitations (from EQ to WS via GW) tend to make things more interesting than your WoW style 86 abilities on 15 hotbars. Putting restrictions on things like the number of abilities available at any one time can actually increase the depth and thus enjoyment of combat. That's not to say Bioware will achieve this with DA:I's combat, but it is possible.

 

Do less ability slots give us less options in combat? Yes. Is that a bad thing? Well, it depends. Giving less options is not neccesarily a negative thing, it's not neccesarily "dumbing down", provided the options we have left, the choices we have left, are more meaningful than before. To take what I regard as the perfect Bioware example: weapons in the first two Mass Effects. In ME1, including the modifications, you had somewhere in the region of 562892 different weapons of each type...actually, no you didn't. You had two weapons. Either you focused on minimising heat for a sustained output, or you ignored heat and focused on getting the most damage out of a single shot. In terms of how they play you got two weapons, that was it. Those weapons did get better over time, but gameplay wise they did not change. With DLC, even ignoring the starter guns that are outclassed by later ones, ME2 had 3-4 genuinely different weapons with different playstyles in each class of weapon. Far less options on paper, but significantly more actual variety in practice.

 

The same can apply in combat - given players less options on paper makes the choices between the options we have left far more interesting. I dunno how many people have played both, but compare the original XCOM (UFO Defense) with the recent remake (Enemy Unknown). In the former, you have far more freedom in what you do with your soldiers in battle, as it works off an action point system where you can take whatever actions you want provided you have the AP. In the new game, you get two actions a turn, and, barring a few abilities, if your first action isn't a move, you lose the second. Now, obviously, the former gives you far more freedom in how you play, far more options in what you do. And at first, I admit I did see the change as dumbing down. But as I played more of EU, I began to realise that by constraining my options, I was forced to make far more difficult, and therefore intersting, choices. In the original, I could have a character leave cover, take a shot at the enemy, then move back into the cover, remaining safe. In the remake, if I move out to take a shot, I can't get back into cover. So such a move is no longer a complete no brainer - do I take the risk of exposing my soldier to take a shot? If it kills the alien, I'm fine, but if it misses, then he's got a clean shot back at me. What was a complete no-brainer under the "freedom" model, now becomes a serious decision under the "constricted" model. And, for me at least, it's decisions like this which make tactics and strategy fun. Is it all positive? Of course not, there are times in EU where I miss the freedom of the original. There are advanatges and disadvanatges to both systems. But to suggest that one is worse simply because it provides less options, which is what some people here are saying, is stupid.

 

Personally, from what Bioware have said, I see the 8 slot limit in DA:I to be an attempt to achive this kind of effect - to reduce options in order to make them more meaningful. To force players to make genuine choices in what abilities they're using, and therefore make things more interesting, challenging and enjoyable. Will it work? Dunno. I certainly hope so, and as I said at the beginning of this post, I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

I certainly don't see any evidence that this is a deliberate "dumbing down" of the game for these mythical stupid console players who can't use a real UI...


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