820 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

I agree with this, I know a lot of people deride Skyrim for dumbing down but IMHO it was a clear case of good streamlining, there was no reduction in depth from Oblivion ....

Is this a case of damning with faint praise?

[Altima Darkspells]

The challenge falls to the Devs, just like it always does with combat design and balancing. Essentially, what everyone who thinks this is a grand idea is saying is: It's ok that the only way you could come up with to keep combat interesting, after the wave system in DA 2 flopped with a lot of players, was to make it artificially difficult by limiting what we can do with no in universe reasoning at all. Combat has changed in each installment, some of the changes good, better attack speeds, ccc's, some, not so much, wave combat and now character amnesia.

The DA2 enemy wave design was made in order to circumvent engine limitations for weaker machines (ie, consoles) since the engine itself was originally designed solely for PC's--and ported to consoles over six to ten months once EA bought out BioWare.

Presumably, we'll see this less in DAI, since it's a new engine, (obviously) designed with consoles in mind first, and what waves we will see will make some sense, like in the form of demons popping out of portals.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I agree with this, I know a lot of people deride Skyrim for dumbing down but IMHO it was a clear case of good streamlining, there was no reduction in depth from Oblivion but the design was much improved.

Oblivion had its own issues.

But I think that if yoy take Skyrim's overall design, and sub in Morrowind or Daggerfall's ruleset, it would be a better game.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

well... wiki says nature and cold. don't recall nature, but sure as hell my cold warden had the time for a smoke during those fights. not to mention the hind behind pillar tactics cuz mass pull was OP one shot, heavy on plates too, so every bit of cc helped. cone of cold included (if i was lucky and it was not resisted).

 

Yeah they were frozen but took no damage to health from cone of cold or other cold spells

[finc.loki]

Wish they had a shift modifier for the ability bar. That way you could easily have 16 abilities. Just hit shift for the shift+1, Shift+2 etc.

 

Instead PC gets limited because console is limited. Funny how this game went from a PC first game with DAO to PC second.

Also why is 9-0 locked ( if it is) to potions and the other? Why not make it a a keybind or an option to toss it up on the hot-keys 0-9 ( ten keys/abilities).

 

That is my view.

[LexXxich]

I know a lot of people deride Skyrim for dumbing down but IMHO it was a clear case of good streamlining.

I cannot agree with this.
Bethesda removed the whole spellmaking system. That alone is damning enough.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Wish they had a shift modifier for the ability bar. That way you could easily have 16 abilities. Just hit shift for the shift+1, Shift+2 etc.

 

Instead PC gets limited because console is limited. Funny how this game went from a PC first game with DAO to PC second.

Also why is 9-0 locked ( if it is) to potions and the other? Why not make it a a keybind or an option to toss it up on the hot-keys 0-9 ( ten keys/abilities).

 

That is my view.

 

Mostly good questions. However we can't blame this on consoles. They are unnecessarily limited too. They weren't limited in the previous games, Bioware has decided to make it so for game play reasons. They aren't going to tell us what those game play reasons are, I imagine, so we will have to try to make do once we get the game.

 

I do agree that their development is console first, PC second. Someone from Bioware said during development of DA2 that most of their sales were on consoles so that is where they are focusing their efforts.

[Cyr8]

I'm calling it now, the reason that Bioware thought it would be a good idea to limit us to only 8 abilities is because of multiplayer. Not because of consoles (because the limit of the consoles never affected the PC before) but because of multiplayer. If you pay attention to gameplay videos, they always like to emphasize how you can play without using the tactical menu if you want. Well, that's because you can't pause and use the tactical menus in the multiplayer. So they have to streamline gameplay for that.

 

I don't know why they won't allow us to use a normal skillbar in single player and this limited one in multiplayer, though. Maybe they think it will be too confusing to go from a fully functional one to a hampered one in multiplayer, but we are PC gamers and we can handle it. So they did all this for the multiplayer. I should have known that the reason why they were taking too long to show the PC UI was because of the UI and they didn't want to introduce the bad news until they had all the good news out to the way first.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I'm calling it now, the reason that Bioware thought it would be a good idea to limit us to only 8 abilities is because of multiplayer. Not because of consoles (because the limit of the consoles never affected the PC before) but because of multiplayer. If you pay attention to gameplay videos, they always like to emphasize how you can play without using the tactical menu if you want. Well, that's because you can't pause and use the tactical menus in the multiplayer. So they have to streamline gameplay for that.

 

I don't know why they won't allow us to use a normal skillbar in single player and this limited one in multiplayer, though. Maybe they think it will be too confusing to go from a fully functional one to a hampered one in multiplayer, but we are PC gamers and we can handle it. So they did all this for the multiplayer. I should have known that the reason why they were taking too long to show the PC UI was because of the UI and they didn't want to introduce the bad news until they had all the good news out to the way first.

 

Did multiplayer affect the design decisions? Probably.

 

The thing is, regardless, they decided on an 8 ability limit and (I suspect) tailored every enemy around each character in the party having only 8 abilities. Maybe if we had more abilities to choose from, it would trivialize the combat in SP, or making the SP mobs harder would make the mobs in MP too difficult with limited abilities. I'm only guessing here. I'm not trying to defend the design.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Oblivion had its own issues.

But I think that if yoy take Skyrim's overall design, and sub in Morrowind or Daggerfall's ruleset, it would be a better game.

 

You refer to a ruleset occasionally. I'm not sure what the ruleset is?

[PhroXenGold]

I'm curious why people are so adverse to the idea that the 8 slot limitation is because Bioware feel that it makes the gameplay better? I can't say for certain this is true, but it seems far more likely than it being beacuse of consoles (as past DA games let console players use as many abilities as they want) or multiplayer (which has a different limit).

 

Not to mention, of course, we don't have 8 abilities, we have 32

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I'm curious why people are so adverse to the idea that the 8 slot limitation is because Bioware feel that it makes the gameplay better? I can't say for certain this is true, but it seems far more likely than it being beacuse of consoles (as past DA games let console players use as many abilities as they want) or multiplayer (which has a different limit).

 

Not to mention, of course, we don't have 8 abilities, we have 32

 

I'm sure Bioware thinks that. The fans have doubts however. lol. It may turn out to be fine, we won't know until we get the game.

 

The 32 abilities claim is only relevant if we can, for example, give the warrior and rogue only 7 abilities and use 2 extra on the mage. That isn't the case, obviously. Each of our 4 in party characters has 8 slots to choose from their own unique skill set. So yes, we have 32, drawing from 4 different pools. If my warrior only uses 3 skills at a time, my mage is still stuck with the 8 he/she chose before the fight.

[PhroXenGold]

I'm sure Bioware thinks that. The fans have doubts however. lol. It may turn out to be fine, we won't know until we get the game.

 

Oh, I'm by no means certain that it will be better. I hope it is, and I think it could be, but I can also see how it could make things worse. I'm just curious why people can't accept that the justification for it is simply an attempt to improve things, rather than having to come up with alternative ideas that make no real sense.

[Kharn-ivor]

I'm curious why people are so adverse to the idea that the 8 slot limitation is because Bioware feel that it makes the gameplay better? I can't say for certain this is true, but it seems far more likely than it being beacuse of consoles (as past DA games let console players use as many abilities as they want) or multiplayer (which has a different limit).

 

Not to mention, of course, we don't have 8 abilities, we have 32

Honestly I think devs are partly to blame, alot of game design isn't super intuitive , and nobody is informing gamers about why things are done a certain way.  Even gaming media and reviewers don't really talk indepth about design.

And so people naturally react with the tools they have, it's going to take somebody smarter than me to work out a way to inform gamers so that we can get a better quality of game.

Thats what I think anyways

[LexXxich]

Attempts to improve things must have some logically defined goals. Even then, devs might go wrong about attaining those goals, or even have those goals set all wrong. BW has a history of going overboard with "fixing" things.
1. Some complained about DAO encounter designs being too static, how you almost always know who are you fighting and how many there are. DA2 turned things 180 degrees, now every fight was shoved unto player on opposition's terms, you got ambushed nearly constantly, reinforcements appeared right behind your back and so forth.
2. Some complained about ME inventory being clunky and Mako segments/free exploring being featureless. So in ME2 those parts were cut completely.
So yes, maybe they did think that 8 ability limit is for improving gameplay. Doesn't necessarily means that their reasoning for doing it was right and sound, or that they didn't get caught up in their own pride and "artistic integrity" to notice that the implementation of their design goals is lacking.

[Mathias]

And if combat effectiveness were the only possible motive for choosing among abilities, you would be exactly correct.

 

What other motive do you need?

[LexXxich]

What other motive do you need?

Roleplaying? Blood magic is very combat effective in both DAO and DA2, and my mage characters never used it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

What other motive do you need?

Roleplaying, as mentioned, or just an interest in trying to do things differently.

I liked the Glyph line in DAO because it was fun. I didn't care particularly how effective it was.

[Sylvius the Mad]

You refer to a ruleset occasionally. I'm not sure what the ruleset is?

It's the set of mechanical rules that govern the game. How to attributes and abilities work? What rules govern combat? How are hit points and spell effects calculated?

[robertthebard]

Mostly good questions. However we can't blame this on consoles. They are unnecessarily limited too. They weren't limited in the previous games, Bioware has decided to make it so for game play reasons. They aren't going to tell us what those game play reasons are, I imagine, so we will have to try to make do once we get the game.
 
I do agree that their development is console first, PC second. Someone from Bioware said during development of DA2 that most of their sales were on consoles so that is where they are focusing their efforts.

Isn't this more of a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" kind of thing though. The radial menu is out, no unlimited access to skills via the radial menu, bang, everyone, except MP, has an eight skill limit. Add to this that PC can now use the controller as well, and it's really starting to look like while it may not be consoles in general, and it may not be MP in general, but if you look at it all together, it sure looks hokey. The only thing tactical about this design choice is the PR speak behind it.

I can almost see some black moustache, fedora wearing Dev, reading these topics, twirling the moustache: Bwahahahahaha, they not only bought "tactical" hook line and sinker, they're defending it, to the death. The day 1 DLC for Xbone? A top secret code for the controller that unlocks a secondary UI with a fully functioning radial menu, and unlimited access to your skill trees. <---- comedic effect only, unless there really is a black moustache twirling dev reading this and laughing...

[Morroian]

Is this a case of damning with faint praise?

 

Absolutely not. 

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Attempts to improve things must have some logically defined goals. Even then, devs might go wrong about attaining those goals, or even have those goals set all wrong. BW has a history of going overboard with "fixing" things.
1. Some complained about DAO encounter designs being too static, how you almost always know who are you fighting and how many there are. DA2 turned things 180 degrees, now every fight was shoved unto player on opposition's terms, you got ambushed nearly constantly, reinforcements appeared right behind your back and so forth.
2. Some complained about ME inventory being clunky and Mako segments/free exploring being featureless. So in ME2 those parts were cut completely.
So yes, maybe they did think that 8 ability limit is for improving gameplay. Doesn't necessarily means that their reasoning for doing it was right and sound, or that they didn't get caught up in their own pride and "artistic integrity" to notice that the implementation of their design goals is lacking.

 

Yup, and add the 'iconic looks' thing to the list of 'fixes' the players never asked for. I think the goals are things us players wouldn't even think of, like it makes development and balancing of a feature easier. For instance, with Iconic looks they can make different body types for each companion, because they don't have to fit the same armour onto 8 different companions. I made that up, just an example of what might have triggered it.

 

Whatever reasons for a design decision apply, they need to sell it to the players as something beneficial to them. It's PR and marketing at play here.

 

Maybe they are trying to switch gameplay to be more action oriented, and 8 abilities plays into that. Less thought required about what ability to choose, makes faster gameplay in combat maybe? I'm not crazy about it, so that's why I'm going to wait until release to see what actual players say about it before buying.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Isn't this more of a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" kind of thing though. The radial menu is out, no unlimited access to skills via the radial menu, bang, everyone, except MP, has an eight skill limit. Add to this that PC can now use the controller as well, and it's really starting to look like while it may not be consoles in general, and it may not be MP in general, but if you look at it all together, it sure looks hokey. The only thing tactical about this design choice is the PR speak behind it.

I can almost see some black moustache, fedora wearing Dev, reading these topics, twirling the moustache: Bwahahahahaha, they not only bought "tactical" hook line and sinker, they're defending it, to the death. The day 1 DLC for Xbone? A top secret code for the controller that unlocks a secondary UI with a fully functioning radial menu, and unlimited access to your skill trees. <---- comedic effect only, unless there really is a black moustache twirling dev reading this and laughing...

 

Bioware has a history of implementing design decisions that they think will be best for the players. Some of them are fine, some of them not so much. I'd prefer they give us options and we decide how we want to play the game.

[CIA]

I was never a fan of really crisp, sleek, clean UIs in medieval games. Oh well.

[shepard0445]

1. Character potraits: 

The DAK styled designe of your group looks great but that the Inquisitor only have a hand is a little isapointing.

2. Health/Mana Bar: 

​It is great that they are Combine the round Mana and the straight health of DAO and DA2. But why is it green on a red surface? that will iritat the player the most at the beginning. But there will be a mod for it.

3. Skillbar:

the 8 slots sounds small but who knows how it feels to play like this. the poition slot is  realy small but if you can use your inventory during combat it is fine.

 

One Question when starts the Dragon Keep Beta?