820 réponses à ce sujet

[durasteel]

Because it's how they designed their game?

 

If you're playing a game against the rules set, that's perfectly fine... but don't expect it to work the way you want.

 

Just a little point I think deserves to be made here: they didn't design "their" game for themselves, and decided to let us play it, too, as an afterthought. They designed the game for us, which was made clear by the fact that they encouraged me to pre-order it months ago.

 

I'm not suggesting that this should be a custom product designed to my specifications, but I don't think it's appropriate to dismiss the PC gamers' feedback, either. I realise that Microsoft doesn't give half a crap about those of us who play games on their Windows platform, and they'll never bribe EA to our benefit under any circumstances, but it would be nice to feel like BioWare, at least, didn't consider the PC to be the red-headed step-child of the game platform family.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Because it's how they designed their game?

Yes, but why? It's as if they think they know better than any given individual player what that player will enjoy.

We don't all like the same things. Giving us a game that only plays 1 or 2 ways will necessarily alienate a bunch of players.

[robertthebard]

Mark Darrah ‏@BioMarkDarrah
Here's a first look at our PC Tactical UI. More will come soon: #DAI #PC pic.twitter.com/p5fy5gfX0F


 

 
 
Mike Laidlaw @Mike_Laidlaw 

PC question 1: 8 Ability slots?
A: Yes, per character. Changeable between combat.




 
Mike Laidlaw @Mike_Laidlaw 

PC Question 2: What is that TAB thing?
A2: Highlight stuff in the world.

 
Mike Laidlaw @Mike_Laidlaw

PC Question 3: Why 8?
A: 32 abilities (along with passives/upgrades) across the party provides a broad spectrum of tactical options.
 
Mike Laidlaw @Mike_Laidlaw 

Ability count clarity: DAI is about roles, planning ahead and making tactical decisions. Potions, ability choice, gear, party composition.


 
 
Please let's keep all discussion surrounding the PC UI civil and on-topic - thanks!

It never went off topic the last time. Discussing the UI and the ramifications there of seems to be pretty spot on as far as topic goes to me. Can't say much about the civil part, even I had to report a few of the White Knights for trolling, but it was pretty much on topic.

[Fredvdp]

For what? Health, Lyrium, and Stamina. That's all you really need.

Depends on what types of health potions the game has. In DA:O I had both the strong and weak health potions mapped. I tried not to use the potent ones if it weren't truly necessary, but occasionally they came in handy. DA2 had different types of health potions and I switched between those as well.

Having only one potion type per fight makes sense if there is no variety of potions. I hope that's not the case. I hope we can still open the inventory menu during combat and select the potions there.

[robertthebard]

Depends on what types of health potions the game has. In DA:O I had both the strong and weak health potions mapped. I tried not to use the potent ones if it weren't truly necessary, but occasionally they came in handy. DA2 had different types of health potions and I switched between those as well.

Having only one potion type per fight makes sense if there is no variety of potions. I hope that's not the case. I hope we can still open the inventory menu during combat and select the potions there.

IIRC, DA2 only had one kind of potion for each, it just scaled accordingly. This part of the UI tends to follow what we had in DA2, with Mana, HP and Stamina potion slots where appropriate.

[Altima Darkspells]

I haven't seen a design decision this bad since Skyrim. "No, guys, it'll be cool, you'll just pause combat and have to individually selection any abilities or weapons you want to use from a menu, EVERY TIME YOU WANT TO USE SOMETHING ELSE. It'll be perfect, nothing can go wrong!"

But at least it'll be like Skyrim and modders can change the questionable design aspec--oh wait.

My question is, if PC gamers are going to constantly be punished for not wanting to purchase a game for a console, why are we constantly charged more money about it?

[mugwuffin1986]

Just a little point I think deserves to be made here: they didn't design "their" game for themselves, and decided to let us play it, too, as an afterthought. They designed the game for us, which was made clear by the fact that they encouraged me to pre-order it months ago.

 

I'm not suggesting that this should be a custom product designed to my specifications, but I don't think it's appropriate to dismiss the PC gamers' feedback, either. I realise that Microsoft doesn't give half a crap about those of us who play games on their Windows platform, and they'll never bribe EA to our benefit under any circumstances, but it would be nice to feel like BioWare, at least, didn't consider the PC to be the red-headed step-child of the game platform family.

 

They designed the game they thought we would enjoy, they didn't design the game by fan committee.

 

These are a bunch of intelligent designers, programmers and writers they aren't beholden to the fans. 

 

Yes, but why? It's as if they think they know better than any given individual player what that player will enjoy.

We don't all like the same things. Giving us a game that only plays 1 or 2 ways will necessarily alienate a bunch of players.

 

Do they know better? Maybe. Maybe not... but they created an experience they hoped we'd enjoy and they shouldn't be restrained in their creativity by the cries of a few fans.

 

If you try to please everyone, you won't please anyone.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If you try to please everyone, you won't please anyone.

They should give us the tools to please ourselves.

[AtreiyaN7]

The 8 ability limitation is bad. No character should ever have an ability earned through levelling up and spending points that then cannot be used simply because you've run out of power slots to put it in.

 

Origins was a PC game with a console port. It seems we've now reversed the priority, and Inq will be a console game with a PC port, bound by the limitations of a damn controller. I don't think it is an accident that this info was revealed at the same time as the Keep--the Keep is delightful, sure to get a ton of deserved positive attention, which will serve to distract from the predictably negative reaction to the gimped PC control scheme.

 

It's just ridiculous to blame consoles for every single design decision that you don't like - and I am saying that as a PC gamer who doesn't think that every design decision that I might not entirely like is automatically the fault of console gamers. Per what I said in the previous incarnation of this thread, I've played various MMOs with hotbars that allowed you to use different numbers of abilities - ranging from 30-plus in SW:TOR to only having 8 active abilities equipped at any one time in The Secret World.

 

The TSW designers designed the game so that you could learn every single ability in the game - and there are 588 of them or so - BUT you can only use eight active abilities at any one time (seven main ones, plus your auxiliary skill) on the hotbar, along with having eight passive abilities equipped (seven main ones, plus an auxiliary weapon passive). I think that they very clearly made a choice to have a set number of active abilities because they wanted to create a different kind of system that played in a different way from the usual MMO style.

 

They wanted it to be more action-oriented/fluid than other MMOs, not because consoles forced a limited number of slots on them. Now I'm sure you might hate the words "action-oriented" as well, but that's a separate issue from any alleged console-related gimping in DA:I. Whatever BW's reasons were, I really doubt it was the fault of console controllers. I have always preferred a clean UI, so I choose to take them at their word that this was the primary reason.

 

 

 

So, when designing the PC interface for keyboard and mouse users, we see the same limitation of 8 active abilities. Now, I ask you... do you think the KB+M interface is limited to 8 slots because (a) "it's a fun tactical challenge;" or ( b ) because the console versions are limited to 8, and we wouldn't want to ship the game with an advantage for PC gamers?

 

I don't particularly buy into this assertion either. It's a single-player game primarily, so why would any hypothetical "advantage" that PC gamers might have with extra spaces on their hotbar be an issue for anyone? It's not like console gamers and PC gamers are competing against each other for a trophy or points as far as that goes, and I think that console gamers have always been aware that PC gamers sometimes end up with superior control schemes than they do. I can't actually recall ever hearing console gamers complaining bitterly about PC gamers like us having a nice KB/M control scheme.

 

If you somehow mean an "advantage" in multiplayer, then I have to point out that it's co-op, aka co-operative, gameplay in which you play together with friends. Even if PC gamers somehow had an "advantage" in MP with more abilities available at one time, it would only serve to help the entire team. Co-op isn't about winning on your own or getting the highest score - you're playing on a team, not playing to win some crown for yourself. And, based on what I just read in an article today, it's not like anyone can ninja loot anything in co-op because all loot is shared instantaneously with everyone else in your group.

[Gokorikon]

Mike Laidlaw @Mike_Laidlaw

PC Question 3: Why 8?

A: 32 abilities (along with passives/upgrades) across the party provides a broad spectrum of tactical options.

 

 

Right. So if there was more than 8, the spectrum of tactical options would not be broader?

 

I would just really wanted to know the idea behind this, why this particular decision had to be made.

Because for now, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[Sylvius the Mad]

PC Question 3: Why 8?
A: 32 abilities (along with passives/upgrades) across the party provides a broad spectrum of tactical options.

Does this mean that upgrades don't take up a slot?

[robertthebard]

Does this mean that upgrades don't take up a slot?

They never have in the past, so I'd expect that to remain the same. Of course, I never had to spend an hour resetting skills and tactics going from one map to the other in DA2, so who knows?

[Patchwork]

I starting to feel resentful towards the party commands taking up space on the hotbar. 

 

And that big useless circle with the hourglass 

[Sylvius the Mad]

They never have in the past, so I'd expect that to remain the same. Of course, I never had to spend an hour resetting skills and tactics going from one map to the other in DA2, so who knows?

But that was a problem in DA2, and I was hoping they'd have fixed it.

Either the lesser version of an ability should remain available even after the upgrade has been learned, or the upgrade should be unequivocally superior in all respects.

So, if the mana cost of the upgrade is higher, that's a problem. If the AoE changes, that's a problem.

I'd like upgrades not to be unequivocally superior, because that makes the choice of whether to use them more interesting. But if we can't use the lesser version, then anything other than a simple improvement creates a disincentive to learning the upgrades.

[jstme]

I fail to see the problem. 8 abilities per character should be enough.In SWTOR,that has gozillion of different abilities that could be all displayed in several quickbars, typical combat rotations for each class rarely involve more then 8 abilities. Rest of available skills are needed for different classes ,utilities skills or simply are junk skills that are useless for all.

Can't say that less is always better,but without trying it certainly is not 100% worse then what we had in Origins. So i suggest to wait and see before declaring that sky is falling.  

[Sylvius the Mad]

And that big useless circle with the hourglass

That's the pause button. We need that.

[Cassandra Saturn]

I starting to feel resentful towards the party commands taking up space on the hotbar. 
 
And that big useless circle with the hourglass 

hourglass is pause time/resume time.

[addiction21]

Just a little point I think deserves to be made here: they didn't design "their" game for themselves, and decided to let us play it, too, as an afterthought. They designed the game for us, which was made clear by the fact that they encouraged me to pre-order it months ago.

 

 

 

There is no us. There is you and some people that happen to agree with you. YOU are not the center of the universe. YOU are not the only fan. YOU do not have all the answers. YOU do not have the only valid preference in gameplay. And YOU still have the option to cancel that pre-order no one made you do it.

 

 

Now feel free to go back to talking in circels.
 

[Krazy Krazer]

Speaking of the hourglass, I wonder what the keybind for it would be since there is a jump button now, I'd assume that would be space?

[Patchwork]

That's the pause button. We need that.

 

I have a spacebar and a TAB button too come to think of it.

 

Yes I'm getting petty and a bit ridiculous but now that the shock of the 8 slots limitation news has worn off I'm looking more closely at that screencap and while it still looks nice and streamlined I doubting it's functionality. 

 

Those party commands could be back under the character portraits and with keybindings for those of use who use a combination of keyboard and mouse. It's all too big and intrusive for my taste.  

[robertthebard]

I fail to see the problem. 8 abilities per character should be enough.In SWTOR,that has gozillion of different abilities that could be all displayed in several quickbars, typical combat rotations for each class rarely involve more then 8 abilities. Rest of available skills are needed for different classes ,utilities skills or simply are junk skills that are useless for all.
Can't say that less is always better,but without trying it certainly is not 100% worse then what we had in Origins. So i suggest to wait and see before declaring that sky is falling.

Yeah, I don't even have Phase Walk on my bar on my Assassin, why should I be responsible for boosting the healer's ability to heal, I need that slot for my limited selection of actual tanking abilities. Saving the healer's bacon in an oh crap moment should be their responsibility.

Ok, that's a lie. I have it, and I use it. I don't use it every fight, but if I had to swap it in, you can bet my rotation isn't changing to accommodate an arbitrary limit on useable skills per fight. I need my tanking skills to tank, so the healers would either have to save themselves, or rely on DPS to do it. Good luck, healers. As I type this, I'm looking at my assassin's bars, trying to figure out what I would take off, and what I'd leave on if I were limited, and frankly, every time I think I have it narrowed down, I come up with a "What if XX" scenario. Nothing fictitious, mind you, but stuff that, over the course of several months of tanking, I have actually seen happen. It's harder than you might think to limit myself artificially to 8 skills that I must have to the exclusion of all others, and still be ready for any contingency that may come up over the course of an Operation.

[robertthebard]

There is no us. There is you and some people that happen to agree with you. YOU are not the center of the universe. YOU are not the only fan. YOU do not have all the answers. YOU do not have the only valid preference in gameplay. And YOU still have the option to cancel that pre-order no one made you do it.
 
 
Now feel free to go back to talking in circels.

Neither do you, I might add. In fact, I'd argue that you seem to be bringing less to the discussion than anyone else, since all you're bringing is hyperbole. We, collectively, are fans of the series, that's the us. We are the target audience for the game, or part of it, that's the us. If you do not fit into the us, why are you here?

[durasteel]

There is no us. There is you and some people that happen to agree with you. YOU are not the center of the universe. YOU are not the only fan. YOU do not have all the answers. YOU do not have the only valid preference in gameplay. And YOU still have the option to cancel that pre-order no one made you do it.
 
 
Now feel free to go back to talking in circels.

I assumed that anyone able to read my post in the first place would understand that "us" referred to the people who have bought the game or are likely to do so within a few months of its release. I clearly overestimated you, for which I apologize unreservedly.

[tmp7704]

Per what I said in the previous incarnation of this thread, I've played various MMOs with hotbars that allowed you to use different numbers of abilities - ranging from 30-plus in SW:TOR to only having 8 active abilities equipped at any one time in The Secret World.

The earliest party-oriented MMO which used this system (choose a few abilities from much larger set) that I can recall was Guild Wars, which is close to 10 years old at this point. So yeah, this been around and is neither "zomg, dirty console peasants" nor really "worst design EVER" kind of decision.

[robertthebard]

The earliest party-oriented MMO which used this system (choose a few abilities from much larger set) that I can recall was Guild Wars, which is close to 10 years old at this point. So yeah, this been around and is neither "zomg, dirty console peasants" nor really "worst design EVER" kind of decision.

Indeed, just outdated.