820 réponses à ce sujet

[devSin]

What faux 3D shelf?

The control bar.
 

DA2 : 18

I believe DA2 may have actually run the width of the screen (except for the reserved spots for quick heal and quick mana), and it depended on your resolution. (It's been too long since I've played to remember, but I don't think it was just arbitrarily limited to only half of the bar length or however many icons are in the quick bar in that screenshot.)

Origins was the same, except you had manual control over the width of the bar (with the limit again being the width of your screen).

[robertthebard]

I think I follow, but your problem would only come up if you had a surplus of abilities. What I'm trying to say is that it's unlikely for this to happen.

It may be, if we only have a total of 8 active abilities spread out over the base class and whichever spec we choose. However, if there's more than that, say half again as many or more, it's going to turn into a game of metagaming the encounters, and adjusting skills and tactics for them. I don't know how much this could happen, none of us do, the only real example we have of the trees is an alpha build for a demo that may or may not make it into the game, but if we're talking 16 to 20 active abilities, there will be no such thing as an "ideal" character build.

[EnduinRaylene]

It may be, if we only have a total of 8 active abilities spread out over the base class and whichever spec we choose. However, if there's more than that, say half again as many or more, it's going to turn into a game of metagaming the encounters, and adjusting skills and tactics for them. I don't know how much this could happen, none of us do, the only real example we have of the trees is an alpha build for a demo that may or may not make it into the game, but if we're talking 16 to 20 active abilities, there will be no such thing as an "ideal" character build.

Building off what I said in the Tactics thread, the game really looks like it's giving the player enough ability points to max out 2 base trees and a specialization, though you are free to invest in other trees if you so choose. If the level cap is 30 and not 25, that means we'll likely acquire 29 ability points, since the system almost definitely appears to be a 1:1 ratio of abilities per level. The base tree we've seen have all been 9 or 10 skill with 3+ upgrades each. Both Specializations we've seen have been 7 abilities plus 3 upgrades. So that's around 30 +/-2 or so abilities total on average for two base trees and a specialization. 

 

Say you're a mage focusing on Spirit, Winter and Knight Enchanter. At level 19 you'll be able to have all the abilities in both base trees, 10 total active and 8 passives, by level 26 you'll be able to have all 7 abilities in the KE tree, 3 active, 4 passive. After that you'll have 4 more levels to then choose between the remaining 8 upgrades spread across all 3 trees. That leaves your character with a total of 13 active abilities, and 12 passive abilities at level 30. So that's 5 abilities more than you can use at a time. Not a huge issue since again this is a level 30 endgame character. We don't know how much we'll need to alter our loadout, they've said not often at all, but going by the ability spread having a high number of abilities is an endgame problem, where we'll be quite familiar with our characters and enemies so it's not like it will take a whole lot of guessing as to what abilities to roll with as well as if and when you may need o retool your loadout.

 

Even if say you got all the abilities in your Spec, 7, and then used the remaining 22 ability points spread across all 4 base trees you'd still end up with close to the same spread depend. 12 passive abilities, and then 17 active abilities if you just go for actives or 14 passive and 15 active if you focus on just two trees after getting the first 2 active and passive abilities for each tree.

 

I'm not sure you could really get that many more active abilities, unless you were specifically trying to acquire them, which you wouldn't because the game only allows you use 8 at a time, and you would be wastefully acquiring abilities you can't use to become a jack of all trades character that runs totally against the party based system. So it's kind of a moot point.

[tmp7704]

Indeed, just outdated.

It's an odd term to pick when the alternative design with 'million abilities on million hotbars' is even older.
 

Oh it has been done before you say?
That means that it cannot possibly be a bad design choice and has to be 100% positive news!
Man, i am really relieved you pointed this out!

I point it out because this demonstrates the system was already put in practice, extensively played by lot of people and not unanimously decided as "worst design ever". To the contrary, it's often cited as strong/interesting aspect of the game.

[rupok93]

8 freaking slots? wtf? I am really disappointed. 8 slots is not enough to account for all the enemies, it should have been like dao where you could expand the slots.

 

Looks like all they did was make a bar and give us same amount of options as console version but on a bar and people say pc games don't consolified.

[archav3n]

8 freaking slots? wtf? I am really disappointed. 8 slots is not enough to account for all the enemies, it should have been like dao where you could expand the slots.

 

Looks like all they did was make a bar and give us same amount of options as console version but on a bar and people say pc games don't consolified.

 

Parity across all platforms. Console gamers should be treated equally as they are Bioware customers too. And yeah a multi-platform game means consolification if you put it that way. That is why it's better a game on PC first and later ported over to consoles. But this is how the industry works now. Hopefully, there can really be a mod to remove this limitation?

[rupok93]

Parity across all platforms. Console gamers should be treated equally as they are Bioware customers too. And yeah a multi-platform game means consolification if you put it that way. That is why it's better a game on PC first and later ported over to consoles. But this is how the industry works now. Hopefully, there can really be a mod to remove this limitation?

 

That is bs, you take advantage of what every platform has to offer. Otherwise games wouldn't take advantage of certain features consoles have kinect and other mechanics. There is literally no gameplay reason for this besides controls. Limiting your active abilities only encourages a meta where a certain combination of abilities is ALWAYS optimal, you will choose those 8 and never use anything else because of that. Otherwise you could have used certain abilities in some situations.

 

This is supposedly a tactical rpg with pause, there should be no limit on abilities that can be chosen during any combat.

 

By your logic we should limit the higher graphics that pc users get as well because consoles can't run it. Also why should modders have to fix devs mistakes? Its like these days modders do half the work.

[mugwuffin1986]

There is literally no gameplay reason for this

 

I didn't realize you had intimate knowledge of the combat and encounter design... please do enlighten us poor peasants that haven't yet managed to play the game.

[rupok93]

I didn't realize you had intimate knowledge of the combat and encounter design... please do enlighten us poor peasants that haven't yet managed to play the game.

 

 

Please tell me how bioware will revolutionize real time and pause rpgs to the point that 8 abilities will suffice. EVERY rpg that artificially restricts usable abilities creates meta of optimal abilities that change based on balance changes.

 

Da2 had way more abilities than this and yet seeing the same thing over and over made me super annoyed.

[tmp7704]

There is literally no gameplay reason for this besides controls. Limiting your active abilities only encourages a meta where a certain combination of abilities is ALWAYS optimal, you will choose those 8 and never use anything else because of that. Otherwise you could have used certain abilities in some situations.

Is there some precious benefit in possibility that some ability will get used once in blue moon, compared to scenario where it doesn't get used? That outweights creating situation where the player actually has to consider their abilities and choose the ones they believe to be optimal?

edit: it's not like having to choose your abilities in advance wasn't also a staple of old RPG mechanics (the spell slots and memorization of them). One, that, iirc hilariously enough DA:O was the game to do away with, much to the outrage of those who claimed this is 'worst design' and stepping all over the BG corpse.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Couldn't you bind the middle button/any other buttons you might have to pause?

I tried on of my thumb buttons, but I kept hitting by accident.

[archav3n]

Is there some precious benefit in possibility that some ability will get used once in blue moon, compared to scenario where it doesn't get used? That outweights creating situation where the player actually has to consider their abilities and choose the ones they believe to be optimal?

 

It means that this game is not rock, paper & scissor where most active skill just does damage and there wasn't hard mechanics that you need to cast say "Breach" in Baldur's Gate 2 to first remove the defenses of a particular mage or casting a Protection from Undead to counter a Vampire. So it means button mashing waiting for the 8 skills to CD.

[In Exile]

It means that this game is not rock, paper & scissor where most active skill just does damage and there wasn't hard mechanics that you need to cast say "Breach" in Baldur's Gate 2 to first remove the defenses of a particular mage or casting a Protection from Undead to counter a Vampire. So it means button mashing waiting for the 8 skills to CD.

I'm having a really hard time parsing your grammar but BG2 had pretty clear optimal spell builds. The very existence of the sorcerer is that a limited number of spells are useful and casting them more often is by far more desirable than just getting a wife selection.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I didn't realize you had intimate knowledge of the combat and encounter design... please do enlighten us poor peasants that haven't yet managed to play the game.

It has nothing to do with the combat and encounter design. It's about the lore.

What's the in-game justification for Dorian not being able to cast all of his spells today?

[Ryzaki]

I'm having a really hard time parsing your grammar but BG2 had pretty clear optimal spell builds. The very existence of the sorcerer is that a limited number of spells are useful and casting them more often is by far more desirable than just getting a wife selection.

 

Yep I played sorc.

 

Wizard can die in a fire. Having to pick the spells I wanted to memorize was bleh. =/

[Sylvius the Mad]

edit: it's not like having to choose your abilities in advance wasn't also a staple of old RPG mechanics (the spell slots and memorization of them). One, that, iirc hilariously enough DA:O was the game to do away with, much to the outrage of those who claimed this is 'worst design' and stepping all over the BG corpse.

If the fanbase reacts that badly to change, shouldn't BioWare make some effort to explain its changes?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yep I played sorc.

Wizard can die in a fire. Having to pick the spells I wanted to memorize was bleh. =/

I played Wizard. I wanted more power.

But the best part was that we both got what we wanted. The game didn't force us both to play the same way.

[AlanC9]

Limiting your active abilities only encourages a meta where a certain combination of abilities is ALWAYS optimal, you will choose those 8 and never use anything else because of that. Otherwise you could have used certain abilities in some situations.

Or you could change your loadout depending on what sort of fight you're expecting. If one setup is actually optimal for all fights, that would be fairly bad design. Though not unprecedented; I hardly ever bother to switch my standard setups in most D&D games.

[Ryzaki]

I played Wizard. I wanted more power.

But the best part was that we both got what we wanted. The game didn't force us both to play the same way.

 

Yeah I was too lazy for that. I saw the pick spells and memorization part and my eyes glazed over. XD

 

But yeah =/ Hopefully you can at least have customized presets to swap quickly between. It still blows but that would at least be something.

[tmp7704]

If the fanbase reacts that badly to change, shouldn't BioWare make some effort to explain its changes?

I believe an attempt to do so is already quoted in the OP of this thread:

Mike Laidlaw @Mike_Laidlaw

Ability count clarity: DAI is about roles, planning ahead and making tactical decisions. Potions, ability choice, gear, party composition.

[mugwuffin1986]

It has nothing to do with the combat and encounter design. It's about the lore.

What's the in-game justification for Dorian not being able to cast all of his spells today?

 

Lore is secondary to gameplay.

 

It's as simple as that, but alas... you don't see to understand that this is a game first and Thedas second.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I believe an attempt to do so is already quoted in the OP of this thread:

And my assessment of their effort on that front will include a consideration of whether they've allowed for things like out-of-combat stealth and the laying of traps, not to mention the strictness with which they enforce class roles.

 

Because the direction they headed in DA2 was the exact opposite of the one they're claiming motivates them now.

[tmp7704]

Because the direction they headed in DA2 was the exact opposite of the one they're claiming motivates them now.

I think the feedback they got for DA2 may have something to do with that change of direction. If nothing else, such change after the reception DA2 has gotten wouldn't surprise me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lore is secondary to gameplay.

They're not even different things in a roleplaying game.  The lore, and the characters' awareness of it, is an integral part of the gameplay.

 

All gameplay is roleplaying, and all roleplaying is gameplay.  If the lore informs one, it informs the other, for they are not two things.

[tmp7704]

All gameplay is roleplaying, and all roleplaying is gameplay.  If the lore informs one, it informs the other, for they are not two things.

(un)fortunately limitations of gameplay often come as result of factors other than roleplaying. E.g. desire for "iconic classes" limiting your ability to wield certain weapons. Such limitations have no lore justifications because it'd be trying to justify absurdity, but they exist nonetheless.