97 réponses à ce sujet

[Hydwn]

So the last character I'm preparing for DAI is my worst-of-all-worlds character - not one who only takes selfish decisions (I have one of those) but one who's actively metagaming to make the worst Thedas he can.

 

In Act II, the horrible decisions are obvious.  If Gascard Dupuis, the Arishok, Mother Petrice, and Torpor are still breathing by the end of Act II (and they are in mine), Hawke has made the world a much worse place in the end. 

 

I find myself struggling, though, with Act III.  Some decisions are obvious (I already gave Fenris to Denarius).  I'll be sacrificing attack speed to poison Varric's mind with red lyrium.

 

In my best-of-all-worlds playthrough, I sided with the mages.  But don't they rip Kirkwall apart in their escape, and don't the Templars restore it?  I've sided with the Templars up to now, but now I'm not sure.  I also let Zevran live in my best-of-all-worlds playthrough, but is world really better off with a master assassin killing his way through the entire Antivan political structure?  I find that third Act much more ambiguous than the first.

 

So my question is, what do you guys consider to be the most destructive decisions in Act III?  

[congokong]

If Zevran is alive in DA2 he stays alive. You can't kill him.

 

I assumed siding with templars was the evil choice. Is this really up for debate? Hawke doesn't even give a good reason for helping Meredith; some garbage about "minimizing casualties" by helping to murder mages. 

 

If you side with the Templars you should also get Anders to max rivalry. Then choose him over Sebastian and convince him to go against his own beliefs to help slaughter the mages. It's a pretty dark scenario.

[Hydwn]

For some reason I thought you could side against Zevran.

 

That was my initial feeling too, for siding with the Templars.  The epilogue, though for the Templars results in a restored Redcliffe with Hawke in charge, and the epilogue for the mages leaves Kirkwall in flames while the mages escape.  I guess I was wondering what happened to Kirkwall in the mage ending...?

 

Also, that was exactly my thoughts for Anders - I maxed rivalry with everyone.  Although that decision's partly pragmatic.  I have no healing if I don't bring him with me, and this is hard mode

[KaiserShep]

You technically can side against Zevran, but this won't result in his death. The only penalty is that you won't get his reward after you kill the Crows at their camp.

 

but is world really better off with a master assassin killing his way through the entire Antivan political structure?

 

I'd really only consider it better or worse depending on the collateral damage involved. If Zevran is good enough to wipe out the Crows in their sleep or something, that's fine with me.

[congokong]

For some reason I thought you could side against Zevran.

 

That was my initial feeling too, for siding with the Templars.  The epilogue, though for the Templars results in a restored Redcliffe with Hawke in charge, and the epilogue for the mages leaves Kirkwall in flames while the mages escape.  I guess I was wondering what happened to Kirkwall in the mage ending...?

 

I assumed that the end-game events play out the same either way. Both Meredith and Orsino die, Kirkwall is in bad condition, and the Circles across Thedas rebel. Hawke is made viscount (even if they didn't want to be) if they side with the Templars but the only difference is one sentence from Varric acknowledging it.

 

You technically can side against Zevran, but this won't result in his death. The only penalty is that you won't get his reward after you kill the Crows at their camp.

Yes. You get a sovereign, Finesse, and the option of sleeping with him if you help. Even if you don't help you might still be able to sleep with him if Isabela is with you and she's your love interest. I'm not positive though.

[themikefest]

Letting Meredith kill Bethany

 

Letting Anders live

[KaiserShep]

Yeah I don't think I can rank anything above letting Meredith kill Bethany.

[ThatCityElf]

Letting Meredith kill Bethany

 

Letting Anders live

I usually let him live, because I'm too much of a weenie to kill off all the interesting (albeit sometimes incredibly annoying) characters Bioware gives me. :/

[Hydwn]

Yeah I don't think I can rank anything above letting Meredith kill Bethany.

 

I'd forgotten that one.  Since I'm playing Reaver Hawke and Bethany is at the circle, this is definitely do-able.

 

(My party-select screen is shrinking rapidly.  As you lose characters, it zooms in on the ones remaining.)

[Dabrikishaw]

Letting Meredith kill Bethany

 

Selling Fenris back to Danarius

[Sir DeLoria]

 
I assumed siding with templars was the evil choice. Is this really up for debate? Hawke doesn't even give a good reason for helping Meredith; some garbage about "minimizing casualties" by helping to murder mages. 
 
If you side with the Templars you should also get Anders to max rivalry. Then choose him over Sebastian and convince him to go against his own beliefs to help slaughter the mages. It's a pretty dark scenario.

How is upholding order evil? Yes, you're killing mages, but they're doomed from the start and hardly innocent.

Neither choice is evil nor good, we're dealing with equal shades of grey here.

[KaiserShep]

The circumstances can determine whether or not upholding order is good or bad. Segregation is a good example of order that I would consider evil and is best abandoned.

[fhs33721]

The most evil choices in Act III:

 

Sell Fenris to Danarius,

Let Castillion live if you still have Isabella,

Slaughter Merrils clan,

Have max rivalry with anders and spare him while siding with the templars. Seastian marches against Kirkwall and Anders get suicidal.

Get Merril somewhere in the neutral area to kill her and finish the wiping out of her clan.

Also kill the surrendering mages 

and finally let Bethany die (in my opinion on of the worst d*ck-moves in the entire game).

[Hydwn]

The most evil choices in Act III:

 

Sell Fenris to Danarius,

Let Castillion live if you still have Isabella,

Slaughter Merrils clan,

Have max rivalry with anders and spare him while siding with the templars. Seastian marches against Kirkwall and Anders get suicidal.

Get Merril somewhere in the neutral area to kill her and finish the wiping out of her clan.

Also kill the surrendering mages 

and finally let Bethany die (in my opinion on of the worst d*ck-moves in the entire game).

 

Isabela's already gone in my playthrough.  I gave Fenris to Denarius, and it's causing weird glitches whenever I walk into the Hanged Man...

 

I actually did not know that about Merrill - I already have rivalry maxed with her (though I let her have the aruin'holm because I imagine there'll be nasty longterm consequences from the mirrors).  This is my seventh playthrough and I'm still learning things about this game, so kudos to the devs on that

 

I also didn't know you could actually kill the Templar Sir Keran.  There's no real reason, but you can.

[MagicalMaster]

I assumed siding with templars was the evil choice. Is this really up for debate? Hawke doesn't even give a good reason for helping Meredith; some garbage about "minimizing casualties" by helping to murder mages. 

 

Sadly, some people will claim that siding with the Templars is the right thing because they claim to hope to have to kill less mages or something -- despite the fact annulling the Circle means...annulling the Circle, aka killing every mage, no surrender.  And it includes killing many innocent mages who fear they'll simply be executed if they try to surrender.

 

And it ignores the fact that Orsino tried to surrender multiple times and Meredith refused to accept it because she wanted blood...and the Templars backed her up.

[congokong]

How is upholding order evil? Yes, you're killing mages, but they're doomed from the start and hardly innocent.

Neither choice is evil nor good, we're dealing with equal shades of grey here.

...And.... here it is. I knew eventually someone would argue my post.

 

"Equal shades of grey?" That's pure bullshit but I doubt anything I say will change your mind.

[congokong]

Sadly, some people will claim that siding with the Templars is the right thing because they claim to hope to have to kill less mages or something -- despite the fact annulling the Circle means...annulling the Circle, aka killing every mage, no surrender.  And it includes killing many innocent mages who fear they'll simply be executed if they try to surrender.

 

And it ignores the fact that Orsino tried to surrender multiple times and Meredith refused to accept it because she wanted blood...and the Templars backed her up.

Aiding the aggressors is very ironic; especially when no bloodshed needs to occur at all. It was all based on Meredith's unlawful use of the Rite of Annulment to achieve vengeance; fueled by her insanity from the lyrium idol.

 

And talk about pretending to have a crystal ball when helping the templars. "If I murder these mages here in the long run it may save more lives." That mentality shows just how dangerous "ends justify the means" can be when you use it so loosely to justify tyranny. It's basically saying that you shouldn't resist but actually aid injustice because compliance may minimize the damage. It's absurd.

[Elite Midget]

The Mages do make a mess of Kirkwall but it wasn't all of them, only a lot of them that gave in to demons and blood magic.

 

So the Mages you do save are innocent, hopefully, as they weren't the ones fighting out there and summoning demons as the Templars killed those ones. It is sad that you cannot rule Kirkwall for a bit unless you side with the Templars but it does make sense that you need Templar support as they're the most powerful force in Kirkwall.

 

I chose to aid the Templars as I know all of them aren't bad and they had no choice but to follow Meredith once the RoA was called. At least with my siding with him it caused the Templars to rally to me and turn against Meredith and even save Mages who surrender. It also let my Hawke rule Kirkwall and set it right since if I didn't rule Kirkwall a Templar would take over, like Meredith did, no doubt.

 

I also did it to prevent any serious talks of a Holy March or the such on Kirkwall.

 

Morally it's better to help the mages but logically you help Kirkwall FAR more if you help the Templars deal with the Blood Mages and instill Hawke as their next viscount as Hawke is the only one that seems to be looking out for what's best for Kirkwall.

[KaiserShep]

The most evil choices in Act III:

Let Castillion live if you still have Isabella,

Slaughter Merrils clan

 

Yeah, blackmailing Castillon for his ship rather than simply killing him is a rather funky choice. I find Isabela's case of "honor" regarding simply killing him and taking his ship to be a rather out-of-character moment, because Castillon is not a person she particularly likes, nor does she like his business practices. Murdering him and all of his men and taking his stuff is something that should be a no-brainer for both her and Hawke. After all, he's a lousy slaver. His death is more likely to make the world a better place than his continued existence.

 

I can't really consider wiping out Merrill's clan particularly evil, because Hawke doesn't actually choose to do this; they simply attack, forcing Hawke & friends to defend themselves, unlike the Warden, who can choose to wipe out the Dalish even though an alternative is suggested.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

[congokong]

The Mages do make a mess of Kirkwall but it wasn't all of them, only a lot of them that gave in to demons and blood magic.

 

So the Mages you do save are innocent, hopefully, as they weren't the ones fighting out there and summoning demons as the Templars killed those ones. It is sad that you cannot rule Kirkwall for a bit unless you side with the Templars but it does make sense that you need Templar support as they're the most powerful force in Kirkwall.

 

I chose to aid the Templars as I know all of them aren't bad and they had no choice but to follow Meredith once the RoA was called. At least with my siding with him it caused the Templars to rally to me and turn against Meredith and even save Mages who surrender. It also let my Hawke rule Kirkwall and set it right since if I didn't rule Kirkwall a Templar would take over, like Meredith did, no doubt.

 

I also did it to prevent any serious talks of a Holy March or the such on Kirkwall.

 

Morally it's better to help the mages but logically you help Kirkwall FAR more if you help the Templars deal with the Blood Mages and instill Hawke as their next viscount as Hawke is the only one that seems to be looking out for what's best for Kirkwall.

In defense of the blood mages it was out of self-defense and fighting for their freedom. I don't know how becoming an abomination helps matters but the games wants us to believe they do to fight their oppressors.

 

Everyone has a choice including the templars who help Meredith. They could refuse the order since she wrongfully invoked the rite of annulment. In the end Cullen does finally stand up to her although he should have done it sooner.

 

I didn't understand for example why he supports her but hesitates killing those 3 mages. Yes, they surrendered. So did all the mages under Orsino. Meredith refused and wanted the whole Circle annulled. The only difference is these 3 are willfully putting their heads on the chopping block. Why spare them? Why spare Bethany? Yes, Hawke wouldn't want their sister to die but it's very hypocritical to help murder all the other mages but not her because you care about her. You think those other mages Hawke strikes down aren't someone's sister or brother? If you're going to be an evil bastard by helping the templars why do players think letting Meredith kill Bethany then is going too far?

 

I also wonder how much better Kirkwall is for aiding in the unjust slaughter of the mages. Think about Emile DeLauncet's family for example. How will the nobility feel that their children were killed ironically to appease them? Many would be outraged. And how will this influence people sending their children to the Circle in the future; knowing they might be sending them to a slaughterhouse?

 

 

The most evil choices in Act III:

Slaughter Merrils clan,

I'm sick of people calling this evil. How can so many people be ignorant to the concept of self-defense? On my first playthrough I did this completely unintentionally because they attack you if you say the wrong thing. On later playthroughs I did it by role-playing what I would say in that situation, which was to point out that Marethari was possessed; still earning the Dalish' wrath.

[congokong]

It was a surrender on the condition that they don't all be slaughtered. The 3 mages surrendered unconditionally. Orsino's condition was completely reasonable considering the mages were innocent. Would anyone on these boards just willfully let the psychopath Meredith be their judge, jury, and executioner?

Modifié par BioWareMod02, 31 août 2014 - 11:04 .

[fhs33721]

I'm sick of people calling this evil. How can so many people be ignorant to the concept of self-defense? On my first playthrough I did this completely unintentionally because they attack you if you say the wrong thing. On later playthroughs I did it by role-playing what I would say in that situation, which was to point out that Marethari was possessed; still earning the Dalish' wrath.

Well, the OP defined evil as "actively metagaming to make the worst Thedas he can."

And I'd argue that a whole Clan being wiped out makes a worse Thedas than one were they are still alive.

[Elite Midget]

In defense of the blood mages it was out of self-defense and fighting for their freedom. I don't know how becoming an abomination helps matters but the games wants us to believe they do to fight their oppressors.

 

Everyone has a choice including the templars who help Meredith. They could refuse the order since she wrongfully invoked the rite of annulment. In the end Cullen does finally stand up to her although he should have done it sooner.

 

I didn't understand for example why he supports her but hesitates killing those 3 mages. Yes, they surrendered. So did all the mages under Orsino. Meredith refused and wanted the whole Circle annulled. The only difference is these 3 are willfully putting their heads on the chopping block. Why spare them? Why spare Bethany? Yes, Hawke wouldn't want their sister to die but it's very hypocritical to help murder all the other mages but not her because you care about her. You think those other mages Hawke strikes down aren't someone's sister or brother? If you're going to be an evil bastard by helping the templars why do players think letting Meredith kill Bethany then is going too far?

 

I also wonder how much better Kirkwall is for aiding in the unjust slaughter of the mages. Think about Emile DeLauncet's family for example. How will the nobility feel that their children were killed ironically to appease them? Many would be outraged. And how will this influence people sending their children to the Circle in the future; knowing they might be sending them to a slaughterhouse?

 

 

I'm sick of people calling this evil. How can so many people be ignorant to the concept of self-defense? On my first playthrough I did this completely unintentionally because they attack you if you say the wrong thing. On later playthroughs I did it by role-playing what I would say in that situation, which was to point out that Marethari was possessed; still earning the Dalish' wrath.

The templars have no grounds to go against Meredith, even Cullen who suspects her madness all the way at the start of Act 2 which is after she got the idol, because there are Blood Mages and Demons all over the streets. Furthermore, a Mage literally blew up the Chantry in front of their eyes mere moments ago. Whether they felt all Mages are bad or not doesn't change that the Chantry was gone and there are Blood Mages and Demons all over the place. The Templars did their duty to try and restore order against the Mages since whether Meredith is at fault or not for pushing them they were still Abominations everywhere.

 

None of them has more authority in the order in Kirkwall over Meredith. Cullen couldn't act until it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Meredith had lost it. He couldn't challenge her when she evoked the RoA as the Templars, rightfully angry over the death of the Grand Cleric, would side with Meredith. Despite that the Templars will spare Mages, who surrender, if Hawke is with them which says a lot about how they started to feel about to RoA after Orsino tried to surrender and Meredith wouldn't have it.

 

Because the Templars didn't have the stomach for killing those weren't resisting. Orsino is a different story, they know he hide Blood Mages within the Order and the Blood Mages running all over the place are Orsino's responsibility. It's hard to forgive the figurehead, who knew about the Blood Magic abuse for years, while it's far easier to forgive and not want to kill those who are literally innocent and begging you not to kill them. 

 

The point is this, while the Templars are a lot of things it was the Abominations that tore apart the city and whether they did it in self-defense or not doesn't change that the people know this - A Mage killed the Grand Cleric in cold blood, a Mage destroyed the Chantry and everyone inside, and Mages are summoning Demons and using Blood Magic in the streets while the Templars are protecting them from said Mages.

 

So it's as I say, it's morally right to defend the Mages but it's in Kirkwall's best interest to aid the Templars.

[Elite Midget]

It was a surrender on the condition that they don't all be slaughtered. The 3 mages surrendered unconditionally. Orsino's condition was completely reasonable considering the mages were innocent. Would anyone on these boards just willfully let the psychopath Meredith be their judge, jury, and executioner?

The main issue is that Orsino hid the Blood Magic abuse for years and kept his knowledge of it from Meredith and the Templars as well as fighting against them at very turn until the sword was at his throat. Orsino is also in charge of the Circle and he made it clear that he cannot even control his own Cicle Mages due to the rampant abuse of Blood Magic and Demonic dealings that occurred under his watch. Orsino also said to defend themselves, he didn't tell the Blood Mages to burn Kirkwall in a hellfire of Blood Magic as Abominations - They did that on their own. How can they take his word if his word carries no weight?

 

So his word really cannot be trusted as he's a proven liar and cannot control the Mages in his own Circle even if he wanted to.

 

That is why Cullen and the Templars don't back Orsino, as they see that he's failed at many things and bears the full responsibility of his Circle, while they don't have the stomach to slaughter innocent Mages, who aren't at fault, that do surrender to them without a fight or any signs of Blood Magic.

 

Orsino is guilty of the sins of his Circle, while the lower ranking Mages that aren't using Blood Magic are innocents.