97 réponses à ce sujet

[tirnoney]

I'm sure a lot of those mages wouldn't believe that if they were in Kirkwall knowing some of their friends were killed because of him

They were killed because a crazy woman decided to punish them instead of Anders. I grew up in Northern Ireland during the troubles. Plenty of people supported paramilitaries despite knowing the effects it would have on the lives of them and their families. I just think it's a bit more complicated than branding him a terrorist and condeming him outright when certain sections within Thedas might not see it that way.

[Lulupab]

I'm sure a lot of those mages wouldn't believe that if they were in Kirkwall knowing some of their friends were killed because of him

And if you spare him he will help you save the mages. So you don't care about the lives of mages he helps to save? Also there are many more guilty characters out there, I didn't see you mentioning them evil. For example Isabela caused much more damage than Anders. Zevran loves to kill and has killed far more than Anders for personal gains. I can go on. So no letting Angers live is not evil.

Also I don't know where you are from, but I can tell you that if your country had a war of independence like mine you should know that your ancestors didn't win with puppies and rainbows. They killed, terrorized, pillaged etc... so that you could be free. Of course this depends on what side you are on. But do you consider what they did evil? I mean surely you cannot agree with the living condition of mages, and when Fiona asked for autonomy instead of at least talking things over they disbanded the college of enchanter which means "shut up, go back to your old life or pay the consequences" or in other words tyranny.

He gave a reason to start the war up right there, he tears Kirkwall apart, and he sentences nearly all the Mages of Kirkwall to death as he knew that the Templars would invoke the RoA if he blows up the Chantry and kills the Grand Cleric.

Meredith would have find a reason to kill them anyway, thinking otherwise is ignorance. If you read Asunder you will realize that it was this very unjust annulment of circle, that happened because of actions of a mage (Anders) who was not associated with circle in any way, angered mages and many agreed to rebel. You could argue this was his plan all along, whatever he was, he was not stupid. It was all planned. He decided that he should be the one doing the unspeakable so no one else has to.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Lol how is letting Anders live an evil choice? He helps you save mages, its redemption enough.

Killing Bethany has to be the most evil decision in the game, hands down.

 

Or helps the Templars kill them all, while the demon within him has grown more unstable than ever.

 

I am no fan of killing Bethany, but if you're going to annul the Circle, it's pretty damn hypocritical to let her go. On one hand, you deem the mages all to be too great a threat to public security, but then not enough when it happens to fall on your own sibling. You're basically full of crap.

[Hydwn]

Heh.  My thread's turned into a debate on terrorism, through the lens of Anders.

 

Not something we're going to resolve here.  The West has always had a double-standard on the subject.  

 

There are countless references to the Gunpowder Plot and Guy Fawkes in the Anders quest line, starting with his brewing of darkestone/sulphur and sela petrae/saltpetre to make his gunpowder.  Then there's the concealing of it inside a major public building.

 

Fawkes did all that because he and his co-conspirators wanted to make a statement about the second-class status of Catholics in England at the time.  The irony was that they were gunning for a king who was actually more sympathetic to them than everyone else was.

 

And now, Guy Fawkes masks are the symbol of V for Vendetta, and the symbol of Anonymous on its crusades.  He was executed for treason then, and now he's a hero - an odd juxtaposition with a war on terror still going on.  There's a certain fluidity between who we call terrorist and who "freedom fighter," depending on whether the speaker is sympathetic to the cause.

 

For what it's worth, I know the devs are more sympathetic to Anders than most players are.  One of the things they've admitted is that they didn't do a hugely good job of showing mage oppression.  We never see the inside of the gallows, and almost all mages turn to blood magic when pressed - an the inside of the Circle at Ferelden when it doesn't have abominations in it looks a lot nicer than most of Thedas.   Maybe if they had shown some of the things Anders talks about, he would have seemed a bit less crazy (if still extreme).  

[themikefest]

And if you spare him he will help you save the mages. So you don't care about the lives of mages he helps to save? Also there are many more guilty characters out there, I didn't see you mentioning them evil. For example Isabela caused much more damage than Anders. Zevran loves to kill and has killed far more than Anders for personal gains. I can go on. So no letting Angers live is not evil.

So sparing him to help mages makes it ok for what he did?

 

Why did you bring up Isabela? She doesn't have to be recruited. If you don't recruit her, the Qunari still tear apart  Kirkwall killing a lot of people

 

Zevran is an assassin. Thats what he does. I've only let Zevran live once just to get the trophy, otherwise I kill him. If he's dumb enough to try and kill me, I return the favor.

[Jaison1986]

So sparing him to help mages makes it ok for what he did?

 

Why did you bring up Isabela? She doesn't have to be recruited. If you don't recruit her, the Qunari still tear apart  Kirkwall killing a lot of people

 

Zevran is an assassin. Thats what he does. I've only let Zevran live once just to get the trophy, otherwise I kill him. If he's dumb enough to try and kill me, I return the favor.

 

Because if you recruit Isabela she makes the choice that keeping the tome to give it to Castilion is more important then avoiding an war with the qunari. And that's exactly what they do. They leave once they get the tome back. So all of these deaths could have been avoided if Isabela didn't ran away. It was her responsability in case Hawke recruits her.

 

You know, for someone that is so against characters doing acts of violence, you are pretty trigger happy yourself.

[Lulupab]

So sparing him to help mages makes it ok for what he did?
 
Why did you bring up Isabela? She doesn't have to be recruited. If you don't recruit her, the Qunari still tear apart  Kirkwall killing a lot of people
 
Zevran is an assassin. Thats what he does. I've only let Zevran live once just to get the trophy, otherwise I kill him. If he's dumb enough to try and kill me, I return the favor.

Isabela causes all that by stealing the tome, the fact that you recruit her or no is irrelevant. The city burns because of her.

I see, you kill Loghain too then? You have a soldier kind of personality but know that you see everything in your opinion. As a Lawyer in real life I feel obligated not to cast death sentence with ease. The game already makes us kill those who must die aka Orsino, Meredith, Alrik etc...

As much as I hate to admit it, what Anders did was necessary for a better future for mages. It was completely obvious that its not gonna happen peacefully. I will quote DAO "Andraste didn't write a strong worded letter, she conquered the world". That's how change happens, especially in Thedas.

[themikefest]

Isabela causes all that by stealing the tome, the fact that you recruit her or no is irrelevant. The city burns because of her.

So you're saying the Qunari were in the right to attack the city?

 

I see, you kill Loghain too then? You have a soldier kind of personality but know that you see everything in your opinion. As a Lawyer in real life I feel obligated not to cast death sentence with ease. The game already makes us kill those who must die aka Orsino, Meredith, Alrik etc...
 

Yes I kill Loghain. I've only saved him for the trophy and to hear what his dialogue is after the Archdemon is defeated

 

You may feel obligated not to cast death with ease, but you seem to let a mass murderer be free without even having him locked up for what he's done. You believe him helping mages after what he did makes it right.

 

As much as I hate to admit it, what Anders did was necessary for a better future for mages. It was completely obvious that its not gonna happen peacefully. I will quote DAO "Andraste didn't write a strong worded letter, she conquered the world". That's how change happens, especially in Thedas.

There is no guarantee of what he did will make for a better future. 

 

You know, for someone that is so against characters doing acts of violence, you are pretty trigger happy yourself.

I might be trigger happy, but I would never resort to the crap that Anders did.

[tirnoney]

Isabela causes all that by stealing the tome, the fact that you recruit her or no is irrelevant. The city burns because of her.

I see, you kill Loghain too then? You have a soldier kind of personality but know that you see everything in your opinion. As a Lawyer in real life I feel obligated not to cast death sentence with ease. The game already makes us kill those who must die aka Orsino, Meredith, Alrik etc...

As much as I hate to admit it, what Anders did was necessary for a better future for mages. It was completely obvious that its not gonna happen peacefully. I will quote DAO "Andraste didn't write a strong worded letter, she conquered the world". That's how change happens, especially in Thedas.

Considering what the word 'terrorist' means to most people in the west these days, the disconnect with historical terrorist movements is understandable. Polarising, but understandable nonetheless.

Alrik eh? Does that mean that Anders act 2 quest is compulsory? I've always done it but I didn't realise Ser Alrik had to die. I just assumed you could ignore the quest.

[tirnoney]

So your saying the Qunari were in the right to attack the city?

 

 

The Qunari chose to attack the city.  Meredith chose to annul the circle for Anders' crime.  That is their respective responsibilities.  It doesn't change the fact that Isabela knew before she ran off with the relic what the consequences of her actions would be for the city of Kirkwall.  Anders also knew what affect his actions would have on Kirkwall.  If anything, Isabela's actions were worse because they were purely selfish.  Anders' motivation was to end what he saw as the oppression of mages.  They both knew what they were doing and they both understood the consequences of their choices.  

[Jaison1986]

So you're saying the Qunari were in the right to attack the city?

 

Yes I kill Loghain. I've only saved him for the trophy and to hear what his dialogue is after the Archdemon is defeated

 

You may feel obligated not to cast death with ease, but you seem to let a mass murderer be free without even having him locked up for what he's done. You believe him helping mages after what he did makes it right.

 

There is no guarantee of what he did will make for a better future. 

 

I might be trigger happy, but I would never resort to the crap that Anders did.

 

They were not, and that's not the point. The point is that they wouldn't have gone that far in the first place, if not for Isabela actions.

 

Funny how Anders is an mass murder, but when the chantry does it, you don't seem to bother to call them out on their actions. What do you think the annulments are? The exalted marchs? The Qunari wars? The Chantry are mass murderers and in an much larger scale then Anders is. And while sparing Anders won't make up for what he did, it's certanly more useful to have him helping defend the mages then just kill him.

[themikefest]

The Qunari chose to attack the city.  

So why couldn't they ask the city for help in finding who the thief was instead of resorting to attacking the city?

[themikefest]

They were not, and that's not the point. The point is that they wouldn't have gone that far in the first place, if not for Isabela actions.

 

Funny how Anders is an mass murder, but when the chantry does it, you don't seem to bother to call them out on their actions. What do you think the annulments are? The exalted marchs? The Qunari wars? The Chantry are mass murderers and in an much larger scale then Anders is. And while sparing Anders won't make up for what he did, it's certanly more useful to have him helping defend the mages then just kill him.

They still didn't need to attack the city. As I posted above, why couldn't they ask the city for help in finding the thief?

[tirnoney]

So why couldn't they ask the city for help in finding who the thief was instead of resorting to attacking the city?

 

And why couldn't Meredith insist on locking Anders up instead of choosing to annul the circle?  Both the Qunari and Meredith had reasons for what they did but those are separate issues from the culpability of Isabela and Anders.

[Lulupab]

Considering what the word 'terrorist' means to most people in the west these days, the disconnect with historical terrorist movements is understandable. Polarising, but understandable nonetheless.
Alrik eh? Does that mean that Anders act 2 quest is compulsory? I've always done it but I didn't realise Ser Alrik had to die. I just assumed you could ignore the quest.

Well ignoring it is another matter. Once you see him in action then he has to die.

So you're saying the Qunari were in the right to attack the city?
 
You may feel obligated not to cast death with ease, but you seem to let a mass murderer be free without even having him locked up for what he's done. You believe him helping mages after what he did makes it right.
 
There is no guarantee of what he did will make for a better future. 
.

You see the impact of his action were felt in the mage rebellion. Unless you fully support the Templars, there is no reason to call not killing Anders "evil". Now if you said morally grey I would definitely agree.

Also sparing him to help mages doesn't make it "right" it justifies sparing him, that is all. He will still be as guilty as ever. Besides how many Templars questioned Meredith's abhorrent decisions? He meant only to bring about a complete end to the world's practice of imprisoning mages within the Circles, and he understood that to do that would require that someone get their hands bloody. He decided that he would be willing to do that, be willing to be the person who committed a heinous act so that no one else would have to. He was fully aware that his actions were evil and that they would trigger a war. But he knew that if that act of murder was not done, then the system of the Chantry and templars and mages and phylacteries would continue unabated forever.

In this, he was a tragic figure, taking it upon himself to be the reviled murderer so that other people would have the freedom to condemn his actions. Like it or not, that is a very realistic, real-world scenario. For every Martin Luther King or Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi you see in the world, there are people with blood on their hands who give the rest of the world the opportunity to take the moral high road. Their actions ARE despicable, but that doesn't make them any less necessary. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous freedom fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around.

[tirnoney]

Well ignoring it is another matter. Once you see him in action then he has to die.
 

Overhearing the creepy dialogue of the female tranquil mage wandering around the gallows in act 2 ("I am Ser Alrik's now, only he can command me.") was more than enough for me.  When I finally catch up with him under the gallows, he could have been reading poetry to visually impaired children and I'd still have roasted him alive.  In some cases, I too 'cast death sentence with ease' as you put it.  IRL, no, but I would lock him up for a very long time.

[tirnoney]

Maybe we can at least agree that letting Meredith kill Bethany is the most evil act you can perpetrate in Act 3? Even Dante would surely agree with us on that one (Betrayer of Kin, 9th circle of hell and all that malarkey).

[Bellethiel]

They still didn't need to attack the city. As I posted above, why couldn't they ask the city for help in finding the thief?

Wasn't that like qun kind of thing? 

Arishok was disgusted by Kirkwall's corruption. Demands of the qun were not respected there. Anti-qunari faction certainly wasn't helping.

Arishok could not leave the city without sacred tome.

Arishok decided that he will attack the city, and force it to follow demands of the qun, since qun did not let him ignore corruption any longer and leaving was not an option either.

Also, since we are talking about sacred qun book I am not surprised they didn't ask for outsiders help. It was Arishok's responsibility to get it back.

[fhs33721]

Wow I didn't know we could do this.  Does Hawke have to be a mage or does this force us to spare Anders at the end? What do you consider neutral area?  Man if this is true this gives me a reason to play DA2 again.  Off to youtube I go.

No Hawke can be any class and no you don't need to spare Anders. You must have friendship and rivalry below 50% (I think) with Merill during the endgame and then choose to support the templars. Merrill will leave your party and fight with the mages instead, resulting in her death (as long as you don't fail the pretty easy fight and die, of course).

[congokong]

These recent posts remind me of Mordin Solus in Mass Effect 2 regarding the genophage when he reflects on the difference between being responsible and guilty.

 

 

Isabela and Anders are different cases. Isabela's actions made her indirectly responsible for the qunari attacking the city, although that wasn't certain when she selfishly took the relic for herself. At the time all they knew was that the qunari weren't likely to leave without it unless they decided to pursue her. Ironically even Aveline, captain of the guard, supports giving it to Isabela although it's the stupid and more evil choice. But in the end it was the qunari's decision to go on a killing spree in Kirkwall.

 

Anders is different in that he was guilty of murdering the people in the Chantry. His actions were responsible for Meredith going crazy by ordering the Rite of Annulment, but it was still her decision; not his. Only Meredith can take responsibility for her actions.

[Kenshen]

.

 

For what it's worth, I know the devs are more sympathetic to Anders than most players are.  One of the things they've admitted is that they didn't do a hugely good job of showing mage oppression.  We never see the inside of the gallows, and almost all mages turn to blood magic when pressed - an the inside of the Circle at Ferelden when it doesn't have abominations in it looks a lot nicer than most of Thedas.   Maybe if they had shown some of the things Anders talks about, he would have seemed a bit less crazy (if still extreme).  

 

While I am sure no circle is fun we do see a lot less strict circle in Ferelden than in Kirkwell.  In Ferelden it seemed that once you reached a certain point in your training you were given the chance to step out.  Wynne and the mage that helps in Which Hunt plus the old lady whose hobby is botany.  I believe that Anders either brought in on himself with a bad attitude and the escape attempts or he is exaggerating just how bad his treatment was.  I wonder just how much of that was brought on by merging with Justice.  I don't recall him making any of the claims in Awakening that he does in DA2.

[Hydwn]

While I am sure no circle is fun we do see a lot less strict circle in Ferelden than in Kirkwell.  In Ferelden it seemed that once you reached a certain point in your training you were given the chance to step out.  Wynne and the mage that helps in Which Hunt plus the old lady whose hobby is botany.  I believe that Anders either brought in on himself with a bad attitude and the escape attempts or he is exaggerating just how bad his treatment was.  I wonder just how much of that was brought on by merging with Justice.  I don't recall him making any of the claims in Awakening that he does in DA2.

 

He does.  He had escaped sixteen times, as I recall.  He was a lot more humorous about it, but he'd still get enraged whenever they talked about Templars.  You can even get him and Justice to have party banter about it.

[Althix]

lost any interest in the game with Arishok's departure.

 

well.. i guess letting Anders live.

[Elite Midget]

They still didn't need to attack the city. As I posted above, why couldn't they ask the city for help in finding the thief?

Because it was their task to get the book back, they also didn't trust or even like the Kirkwall inhabitants, they don't like mercenaries, and if word got out on what they were looking for it would give fuel to their opponents.

 

 

Overhearing the creepy dialogue of the female tranquil mage wandering around the gallows in act 2 ("I am Ser Alrik's now, only he can command me.") was more than enough for me.  When I finally catch up with him under the gallows, he could have been reading poetry to visually impaired children and I'd still have roasted him alive.  In some cases, I too 'cast death sentence with ease' as you put it.  IRL, no, but I would lock him up for a very long time.

Meredith, even though she had the Idol before Act 2 even starts, and the Grand Cleric both denounced Ser Alrik's tranquility solution, he had to do it in secret as neither would stand for it. If he was caught going under their noses than he would have been stripped of his position or even made an example of.

 

Ser Alrik is also the one that made Ander's friend into a Tranquil. If you loot the body of the commanding Templar during that encounter you will discover a letter that reveals that Ser Alrik gave the command on his own.

 

It's very miss-able as you MUST loot the Templar during the battle since Anders takes you out of the Chantry as soon as the battle ends.

[Lavaeolus]

Anders is different in that he was guilty of murdering the people in the Chantry. His actions were responsible for Meredith going crazy by ordering the Rite of Annulment, but it was still her decision; not his. Only Meredith can take responsibility for her actions.

Kick a bull in the nuts in a crowded square, and people will be hard-pressed not to blame you when it mows down a bunch of people. Set a pack of dogs on the crowd, and your blame is cemented. Anders deliberately removes Elthina and incites Meredith to commit a completely unjust Annulling, in order to blahblahblah rebellion; it's part of the goal. 

This does not absolve Meredith of any guilt, but rather adds more to Anders in addition. Meredith could be absolved by claiming she's corrupted and insane (Anders too, I suppose), but "Oh our leader isn't evil she's just insane" is, uh, not the greatest of pro-templar arguments.