97 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

Siding with the templars allows you to execute several mages who beg for mercy and potentially allow Meredith to kill Bethany. If you want to be evil, I would pick that option.

[Elfyoth]

I just cant let Meredith kill Bethany... If it was your bro forgot he's name maybe it was litle easier. lol

[congokong]

Kick a bull in the nuts in a crowded square, and people will be hard-pressed not to blame you when it mows down a bunch of people. Set a pack of dogs on the crowd, and your blame is cemented. Anders deliberately removes Elthina and incites Meredith to commit a completely unjust Annulling, in order to blahblahblah rebellion; it's part of the goal. 

This does not absolve Meredith of any guilt, but rather adds more to Anders in addition. Meredith could be absolved by claiming she's corrupted and insane (Anders too, I suppose), but "Oh our leader isn't evil she's just insane" is, uh, not the greatest of pro-templar arguments.

I see what you're saying here. It was indeed his intention. I'm pretty amazed Anders could predict that outcome though. I guess he was banking on Meredith's insanity-fueled hatred of mages causing her to use the Rite of Annulment as a weapon to do what she has wanted to do for quite some time it seems. Anders just gave her the excuse.

 

The fact that Anders wanted it would work against him if he was brought to trial if it could be proven I assume. At least with Isabela her intent was certainly not for the qunari to go on a killing rampage. She just wanted to stay alive.

[congokong]

I just cant let Meredith kill Bethany... If it was your bro forgot he's name maybe it was litle easier. lol

That would have been a great option to allow you to kill Templar Carver.

[KaiserShep]

Doesn't Carver side with you no matter what? I've never had him join the Templars yet.

[congokong]

Doesn't Carver side with you no matter what? I've never had him join the Templars yet.

He'll side with Meredith initially but once Cullen confronts her insanity Carver will defy her too.

[Willowhugger]

I spared Loghain, the Tevinter slaver (mostly so he could let his fellow slavers know that the elves of Fereldan were off-limits), and showed mercy at every possible location I could in the game even when it came back to bite me in the ass. My Warden and Hawke were effectively the same character, were in my headcanon, and shining examples of mercy as well as good.

And yet my Mage Hawke still killed Anders.

 

One of his closest friends.

 

He understood Anders. He supported his cause. However, he had to kill him.

 

He had to show the world the Mages policed their own. He had to show men like Sebastian that mages would not sink to mass-murder of the innocent to liberate themselves.

He had to liberate Anders from his insanity before he became an unforgivable abomination.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

He had to liberate Anders from his insanity before he became an unforgivable abomination.

 

Pretty sure that ship sailed a Looooong time ago.

[Willowhugger]

Pretty sure that ship sailed a Looooong time ago.

 

Yeah, well, better late than never.

[congokong]

I spared Loghain, the Tevinter slaver (mostly so he could let his fellow slavers know that the elves of Fereldan were off-limits), and showed mercy at every possible location I could in the game even when it came back to bite me in the ass. My Warden and Hawke were effectively the same character, were in my headcanon, and shining examples of mercy as well as good.

And yet my Mage Hawke still killed Anders.

 

One of his closest friends.

 

He understood Anders. He supported his cause. However, he had to kill him.

 

He had to show the world the Mages policed their own. He had to show men like Sebastian that mages would not sink to mass-murder of the innocent to liberate themselves.

He had to liberate Anders from his insanity before he became an unforgivable abomination.

That's, um, pretty ...interesting... cherry-picking there.

[Willowhugger]

That's, um, pretty ...interesting... cherry-picking there.

 

It's how I made my decision on an emotional level.

 

It wasn't based on logic.

Just how I felt "my" Mage would have done with his close friend.

[Beerfish]

Sadly, some people will claim that siding with the Templars is the right thing because they claim to hope to have to kill less mages or something -- despite the fact annulling the Circle means...annulling the Circle, aka killing every mage, no surrender.  And it includes killing many innocent mages who fear they'll simply be executed if they try to surrender.

 

And it ignores the fact that Orsino tried to surrender multiple times and Meredith refused to accept it because she wanted blood...and the Templars backed her up.

So very wrong, Orsino refused to let the circle be searched or to surrender until after the big evil deed was done by a mage.  Only after he had his 'oh shi*' moment  did he agree to anything and by that time it was far too late.  Meredith had every right to take her line of action at that point in time.  Orsino confirmed her suspicions later on with his harvester act.  He was far more to blame than her at that point even though she was now a crazed over zealous templar.  Two mages, Orsino and Anders were directly responsible for the annulment.

[congokong]

So very wrong, Orsino refused to let the circle be searched or to surrender until after the big evil deed was done by a mage.  Only after he had his 'oh shi*' moment  did he agree to anything and by that time it was far too late.  Meredith had every right to take her line of action at that point in time.  Orsino confirmed her suspicions later on with his harvester act.  He was far more to blame than her at that point even though she was now a crazed over zealous templar.  Two mages, Orsino and Anders were directly responsible for the annulment.

Every sentence here is false.

 

It was not "far too late" until Meredith made it far too late by her evil decision to execute the Circle because Anders also was a mage. It was her choice to refuse Orsino's surrender on the terms that she doesn't slaughter everyone. If you understood the circumstances that the Rite of Annulment was to be used you'd know Meredith had no right to do it but was abusing her power in her insanity. All Orsino confirmed with his Harvester act was that he was rather stupid (considering he ends up attacking Hawke even when they're an ally) and/or that he's willing to use blood magic to avoid being slaughtered by templars. But there's this circular reasoning with blood magic and templars where templars execute mages for turning to blood magic and yet make mages turn to blood magic because templars are trying to execute them.

[Elite Midget]

Meredith is right that the people will want blood and the fact is that a Apostate Mage whose also an Abomination killed the Grand Cleric, blew up the Chantry, and killed an unknown amount of innocents who were at or near the Chantry at the time. Orsino has also been purposely lying and keeping secrets from her for years and always stood in her way as well as tried to rally the city in open rebellion against Meredith. Add in that was being driven insane by the Idol and you have a recipe for disaster. Orsino also knew about the Blood Mage problem for years yet never came up with a solution to solve it and he allowed Quentin to continue his inhumane research which Orsino knew much about due to Quentin sharing his findings and research with him.

 

Orsino proved that he was incompetent, he loved to get in arguments, he couldn't be trusted, and that he couldn't even control his Circle. That's why those like Cullen don't care for Orsino or his pleas but hesitate when an actually innocent Mage is begging for their lives.

 

Meredith is the highest ranking member of the Order within Kirkwall and the Grand Cleric was literally murdered a few moments ago. That's what you call a dire or exceptional circumstance and it was within her rights to call forth a Rule of Annulment based off everything that led up to that point. Was it right of her to do that? No, but it was still something he had the ability to do and have carried out. Only when her insanity was truly revealed, and Meredith threatened the trusted and highly popular Hawke with death when the plan was to only detain Hawke for a bit, did Cullen use the Order's own rulings to dismiss Meredith from power and took up her position temporarily to restore Order.

 

That's faulty logic, the Mages always had a choice whether to turn to Blood Magic and make Demonic Contacts or not. The Templars didn't hold them down and tell them to become Abominations, they made that choice on their own. Regardless of the circumstances that's the reality. 

 

We also see that even when backed in a corner there are Mages who don't turn to Blood Magic, as they know its wrong, and that Hawke can back a shaken Cullen, who doesn't want to kill them, to defy Meredith and save their lives.

[Willowhugger]

Oh, I think Orsino flat out is the head of the Blood Mages in the Circle.

I also think he's turning the Circle into a cult of Blood Mages.

And is a radical terrorist.

I think that makes it more fun.

[KaiserShep]

Meredith is right that the people will want blood and the fact is that a Apostate Mage whose also an Abomination killed the Grand Cleric, blew up the Chantry, and killed an unknown amount of innocents who were at or near the Chantry at the time. Orsino has also been purposely lying and keeping secrets from her for years and always stood in her way as well as tried to rally the city in open rebellion against Meredith. Add in that was being driven insane by the Idol and you have a recipe for disaster. Orsino also knew about the Blood Mage problem for years yet never came up with a solution to solve it and he allowed Quentin to continue his inhumane research which Orsino knew much about due to Quentin sharing his findings and research with him.

 

Unfortunately, the idol's ill effects pretty much damage whatever credibility she had left. Now she was just some crazed quasi-magic lunatic on a lyrium-addled power trip.

 

In any case, Meredith's reasoning that the people will want blood is not something I find compelling in the least. We don't actually get to see what the rest of the city thinks, or their reaction. We don't see protests in the streets calling for the death of every mage. She just insists that this is what is going to happen, despite there being a simple solution to [hopefully] avoid needlessly annulling the Circle solely on the idea that people will be angry: publicly execute Anders. She knows that he did it; he practically confessed. Would some people still likely call for the death of every mage? Sure. There's always going to be crazy people who want to kill an entire population of whoever because they're angry. That doesn't mean that these people should get their wish. But, it doesn't matter, because prior to this event, she was already petitioning to have the Circle annulled anyway. Now she just didn't bother sending letters to make it official.

 

 

 

Orsino proved that he was incompetent, he loved to get in arguments, he couldn't be trusted, and that he couldn't even control his Circle. That's why those like Cullen don't care for Orsino or his pleas but hesitate when an actually innocent Mage is begging for their lives.

 

Meredith is the highest ranking member of the Order within Kirkwall and the Grand Cleric was literally murdered a few moments ago. That's what you call a dire or exceptional circumstance and it was within her rights to call forth a Rule of Annulment based off everything that led up to that point. Was it right of her to do that? No, but it was still something he had the ability to do and have carried out. Only when her insanity was truly revealed, and Meredith threatened the trusted and highly popular Hawke with death when the plan was to only detain Hawke for a bit, did Cullen use the Order's own rulings to dismiss Meredith from power and took up her position temporarily to restore Order.

 

While technically within her authority to call for the Right of Annulment as the Knight-Commander, the validity of her decision is questionable, to say the least.

 

 

That's faulty logic, the Mages always had a choice whether to turn to Blood Magic and make Demonic Contacts or not. The Templars didn't hold them down and tell them to become Abominations, they made that choice on their own. Regardless of the circumstances that's the reality. 

 

We also see that even when backed in a corner there are Mages who don't turn to Blood Magic, as they know its wrong, and that Hawke can back a shaken Cullen, who doesn't want to kill them, to defy Meredith and save their lives.

 

This really depends on your perspective. I assume that mages in the Circle are well aware of what the Right of Annulment is, so if hostile Templars are storming the place, your chances of death are high, and some people are more inclined to resist than simply accept what's coming. If I was a mage in the Circle, and saw Templars coming at me, I might very likely assume the worst and may not see any options other than die now, or make sure they die first. If my life was hanging in the balance, I might resort to any and every weapon at my disposal, regardless of my reservations. It's always easiest to have strong principles about certain practices when in relative comfort. People who are entirely opposed to using firearms may very likely use one if it meant surviving.

 

This is why I don't give any regard to the arguments that Hawke can spare certain mages, even Bethany, should I side with the Templars, because I can't consider choices that are not guaranteed to have an opportunity to be made. For all I know, the Templars could just kill everyone, even the ones that surrender, regardless of Hawke's objection.

[Lavaeolus]

In any case, Meredith's reasoning that the people will want blood is not something I find compelling in the least...

Plus, I think the other half of the templars' jobs is to protect the mages in these situations, where the public wants to lynch mages. It's a two-way street, and they're not meant to simply be judges and executioners. It's outright against the mission statement to kill them for the sake of public approval.
 

While technically within her authority to call for the Right of Annulment as the Knight-Commander, the validity of her decision is questionable, to say the least...

The Divine, legally-speaking, can probably tell people to annul Circles because she doesn't like the scenery. It does not make it a good idea, or one that citizens should abide.

[KaiserShep]

That's because Bethany behaved like an actual sibling, or how one should be. Carver is just a sad little man with a Napoleon complex.

 

As much as Carver bugs me as a character, I can't fault him for lack of authenticity when it comes to his being Hawke's sibling. The dynamic is certainly the polar opposite of Bethany, but he very much feels like Hawke's bratty ass little brother.

[Willowhugger]

As much as Carver bugs me as a character, I can't fault him for lack of authenticity when it comes to his being Hawke's sibling. The dynamic is certainly the polar opposite of Bethany, but he very much feels like Hawke's bratty ass little brother.

 

The Trick to Carver is to remember being nice to him in return isn't the best option.

Just be mean back like real big brothers.

[Icefalcon]

So the last character I'm preparing for DAI is my worst-of-all-worlds character - not one who only takes selfish decisions (I have one of those) but one who's actively metagaming to make the worst Thedas he can.

 

In Act II, the horrible decisions are obvious.  If Gascard Dupuis, the Arishok, Mother Petrice, and Torpor are still breathing by the end of Act II (and they are in mine), Hawke has made the world a much worse place in the end. 

 

 

She can survive? Didn't know that! How do you have to play it for her to survive then?

[tirnoney]

She can survive? Didn't know that! How do you have to play it for her to survive then?

Petrice?  You need Hawke to have an aggressive personality when confronting Varnell with the qunari delegates.  Side with him (aggressive only option), then side again with Petrice in the Chantry when the Seamus incident occurs.  Afterwards she'll chat to you outside and offer support in the upcoming finale.

 

All depends on whether you want to go pro-chantry or pro-qunari in Act 2.

[Icefalcon]

Petrice?  You need Hawke to have an aggressive personality when confronting Varnell with the qunari delegates.  Side with him (aggressive only option), then side again with Petrice in the Chantry when the Seamus incident occurs.  Afterwards she'll chat to you outside and offer support in the upcoming finale.

 

All depends on whether you want to go pro-chantry or pro-qunari in Act 2.

Thanks I honestly always believed that was a single outcome. I'll be giving that a try on my current play through